Do you believe in God and why

[save the frogs]

Dude,

Seth was a nasty piece of work in ancient Egypt.

Look how scary he is man!

 

[save the frogs]

"Fortunately, providence intervened"

British packpacker news story

 

 

[Sunmaster]

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book?

There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable.

One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" 
"Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?"
"No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." 
"Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" 
"Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!"

The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible?

"It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison."

The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about?
So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" 

"It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. 
"Can I see it too?"
"Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly.
"Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. 
"No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself."

Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. 

His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. 
The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" 
"My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress.
The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him.

He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom.

He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom.

He surrendered in order to find his light. 

The End.
😊

 

[Sunmaster]

 EDIT: Sorry, it works better with some illustrations.

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book?

 

There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable.

 

One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" 

"Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?"

"No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." 

"Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" 

"Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!"
 

 

 

The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible?

"It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison."

The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about?

So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" 

"It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. 

"Can I see it too?"

"Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly.

"Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. 

"No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself."

 

Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. 

 

 

His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. 

The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" 

"My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress.

The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him.

He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom.

He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom.

He surrendered in order to find his light. 

 

The End.

😊

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

 EDIT: Sorry, it works better with some illustrations.

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book?

 

There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable.

 

One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" 

"Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?"

"No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." 

"Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" 

"Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!"
 

 

 

The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible?

"It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison."

The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about?

So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" 

"It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. 

"Can I see it too?"

"Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly.

"Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. 

"No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself."

 

Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. 

 

 

His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. 

The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" 

"My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress.

The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him.

He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom.

He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom.

He surrendered in order to find his light. 

 

The End.

😊

 

An epic, simplistic, and misleading fantasy for children that's even too simple for children to swallow.  Where's the rest of the story?  Oh, there isn't any more to it. 

 

People who hate women = Misogamists

People who hate humankind = Misanthropes

People who hate gays = Homophobes

People who hate work = Slackers

People who hate foreigners = Xenophobes

People who hate books = there's gotta be some special term for that.  Sunmaster?

[Sunmaster]

23 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

An epic, simplistic, and misleading fantasy for children that's even too simple for children to swallow.  Where's the rest of the story?  Oh, there isn't any more to it. 

 

People who hate women = Misogamists

People who hate humankind = Misanthropes

People who hate gays = Homophobes

People who hate work = Slackers

People who hate foreigners = Xenophobes

People who hate books = there's gotta be some special term for that.  Sunmaster?

 

It's a autobiographical story, but I guess it has stricken a bell for you, too?

You encouraged me to be honest and straightforward with you, but when I do, you play the offended child and shut down. I'm not here to cuddle your bruised ego. If I were to do that, I would do you a great disservice. Since I care about my fellow seeker, I will go on shaking you and rubbing your nose in it, until you tell me to stop. You don't need any more people telling you what a wonderful fortress you've built. You're doing a great job at that by yourself already.
You directly asked me (twice) to kick you in the bottom, so that's what I'm doing. Maybe you didn't expect to be rattled this much...
You have a choice now: either double down on your fortress, get out the big guns and shoot at anything that gets too close, or accept that the walls are inevitably starting to crumble under their own weight and start a new adventure. 
Either way, my fondness and respect for you won't change and I wish you all the best.

[thaibeachlovers]

Oh dear, trouble in Paradise?

Just the other day it was pals together.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

 EDIT: Sorry, it works better with some illustrations.

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book?

 

There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable.

 

One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" 

"Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?"

"No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." 

"Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" 

"Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!"
 

 

 

The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible?

"It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison."

The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about?

So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" 

"It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. 

"Can I see it too?"

"Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly.

"Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. 

"No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself."

 

Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. 

 

 

His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. 

The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" 

"My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress.

The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him.

He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom.

He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom.

He surrendered in order to find his light. 

 

The End.

😊

Nice story. I liked the picture of the castle too. I always wanted to live in a real castle.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, save the frogs said:

Dude,

Seth was a nasty piece of work in ancient Egypt.

Look how scary he is man!

 

Come on man. The men in funny hats have always used scary gods to control the population and get rich.

 

In fact, they didn't exist except in gullible people's minds.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, save the frogs said:

I just found a new small Youtube channel. He sounds Australian. 

I know some people hate competition .... but try to relax. 

 

 

How did Harry Potter get into that picture?

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

People who hate books = there's gotta be some special term for that. 

Yes, it's called "bibliophobia". 

[Tippaporn]

24 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Yes, it's called "bibliophobia". 

 

Etymologically phobia comes from Greek and means fear.  Hating something is the Greek misia.  Granted phobia has evolved in usage to include hatred as well as fear.  I'd still go with Sunmaster. 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh dear, trouble in Paradise?

Just the other day it was pals together.

 

Still pals.  Just some serious headbutting. 

[Tippaporn]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It's a autobiographical story, but I guess it has stricken a bell for you, too?

 

 

The story devalues knowledge gained from books.  Anyone who has benefited from books would take exception.  Knowledge of ourselves and our reality is to be found everywhere in the world.  And that includes books.  But again, it's the insistence that only direct experience can impart knowledge.  Which is what Vedanta seems to teach.  Uhm, the experience of our physical selves imparts no real knowledge?  Our intellect, intuitions, or emotions don't impart valid knowledge?    It seems to me that you've now got religion, for Hinduism is a religion and Vedanta is a branch of Hinduism, and if it's other than what Vedanta teaches then, well, too bad, it's incorrect, right?

[zzaa09]

What a nasty and disconnected species that we are......and in particular a specific sub-group of our kind. 

Not to worry - nature's working on it as we speak. 

[Tippaporn]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

You encouraged me to be honest and straightforward with you, but when I do, you play the offended child and shut down.

 

But you haven't been totally honest.  Without that there's nowhere to go then.  All of your writings are literally verbatim the teachings of Vedanta.  You've got religion and it shows in your responses.  We've gone round and round about the ego and no matter what information I give you to dispel the notion that the ego is not exactly what Vedanta says it is just doesn't take.  The beliefs about the ego which you express are the identical beliefs about the ego which Vedanta expresses.  Whilst I see some major differences you see none.  So I'm scratching my head thinking how can you not see the glaring differences?  And then you objected to my quoting from Seth directly.  Which puzzled me as to why you wouldn't want the information directly from him but only through me in my own words.  It made no sense.  So given that you hadn't really commented on the nine posts I did make I quit posting any of the rest of Seth's information on the ego that I had put together.  I spent a lot of time assembling all of that information and adding my comments but fortunately it wasn't a total waste of time as it benefited me to go through that exercise.

 

Ultimately, it seemed that anything I would offer on any topic would always be fitted to Vedanta.  Which can't help but lead to dishonesty.  Again, as I would point out the differences between Seth's description and explanations regarding the ego you would simply come back with, "I see no discrepancies."  You can't be honest in saying that when I see the discrepancies clearly.  Trying to get you to see things any other way than what Vedanta has taught you failed and so I understood then that you had got religion.  I'd have as much luck with you as I would with a devout Jehovah's Witness.  And they ain't ever gonna budge.

 

What you perceive as me playing the offended child and shutting down isn't what happened.  What happened was that I decided to cut my losses.  You can't debate someone who is willing to be dishonest and even worse you'll never change someone's religion by debating different ideas.  The mere idea that Vedanta could possibly have distortions was flatly rejected  Your last post to me was flush with dishonesty.  At least I could see it.  So I thought, well, time to get out.

 

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Either way, my fondness and respect for you won't change and I wish you all the best

 

You're a good man, Sunmaster.  The feelings are mutual.  No hard feelings at all on my end.  Though I may pop in to give you a hard time now and again. 

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

 

But you haven't been totally honest.  Without that there's nowhere to go then.  All of your writings are literally verbatim the teachings of Vedanta.  You've got religion and it shows in your responses.  We've gone round and round about the ego and no matter what information I give you to dispel the notion that the ego is not exactly what Vedanta says it is just doesn't take.  The beliefs about the ego which you express are the identical beliefs about the ego which Vedanta expresses.  Whilst I see some major differences you see none.  So I'm scratching my head thinking how can you not see the glaring differences?  And then you objected to my quoting from Seth directly.  Which puzzled me as to why you wouldn't want the information directly from him but only through me in my own words.  It made no sense.  So given that you hadn't really commented on the nine posts I did make I quit posting any of the rest of Seth's information on the ego that I had put together.  I spent a lot of time assembling all of that information and adding my comments but fortunately it wasn't a total waste of time as it benefited me to go through that exercise.

 

Ultimately, it seemed that anything I would offer on any topic would always be fitted to Vedanta.  Which can't help but lead to dishonesty.  Again, as I would point out the differences between Seth's description and explanations regarding the ego you would simply come back with, "I see no discrepancies."  You can't be honest in saying that when I see the discrepancies clearly.  Trying to get you to see things any other way than what Vedanta has taught you failed and so I understood then that you had got religion.  I'd have as much luck with you as I would with a devout Jehovah's Witness.  And they ain't ever gonna budge.

 

What you perceive as me playing the offended child and shutting down isn't what happened.  What happened was that I decided to cut my losses.  You can't debate someone who is willing to be dishonest and even worse you'll never change someone's religion by debating different ideas.  The mere idea that Vedanta could possibly have distortions was flatly rejected  Your last post to me was flush with dishonesty.  At least I could see it.  So I thought, well, time to get out.

 

 

You're a good man, Sunmaster.  The feelings are mutual.  No hard feelings at all on my end.  Though I may pop in to give you a hard time now and again. 

Vedanta Vedanta Veshmanta... 🙂
 

For sure there are many similarities in my point of view and that of Vedanta, but you mistake similitude with causation. My point of view is not the product of my learning of Advaita Vedanta. How could it? I learned about it less than a year ago, and certainly not in such great detail as to make me anything but a very superficial scholar. AV simply put into words that which I've learned on my own over 30 years ago. Spirituality is not about intellectual knowledge nor religion, but deep personal experience. 

My point of view comes from personal experience. All the concepts, be it Seth, Vedanta, Spiral Dynamics, Vulcan philosophy and whatnot, are additions to that experience that make it easier to put the experience in a framework in order to think and talk about it. I am attached to none.
Take away the mental concepts from the experience, the experience is still there.
Take away the experience from the concepts, the concepts become empty shells.
This, in a nutshell, is what I'm hoping you would understand. The problem is, you can't understand it with the mere use of the intellect, but that is what you're relying on. The same way science can't find the location of consciousness in the body, the mind cannot find it in itself. The mind is just another object, like the body. You can only understand it by going within...no ego, no thoughts, no intellect, no mind. What is beyond the mind? That which you are.

If you take away Vedanta from my mind, I would still have my own experience to rely on. I wouldn't miss it and it would be no problem for me at all.
What about you and Seth? Can you see how attached you are to this framework? So much so that anything even slightly threatening makes you go into a tailspin. What did you say in one post? You are either 100% correct or 100% wrong? This is what your attachment demands of you. 100% devotion to a bunch of books, at the expense of so many other wonderful sources. 

I think you are frustrated with me, not because I'm dishonest (which I'm not), but because you cannot narrow me down in one of the usual categories (science-guy, religious-guy, atheist, NewAge guy....) you use when talking to others. Now you're even calling me religious! Of all things! 5555
I don't have a "form" that you recognize and because of that, you have no weapons of debate that have any effect on me. Whatever weapon you fire at me, I can simply pull out the trump card: "Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". 

 

 

That's why I repeatedly asked you for your point of view and not Seth's. I wanted to see how much of the knowledge you presented is your own and how much is just borrowed. In my last story, I was the guy inside the fortress. I thought that all the books I read gave me the edge over all others. I believed that if others could follow the logic behind it, I could "lead them to the light". Sometimes I got terribly frustrated with how obnoxious certain people are. I fought tooth and nails to get my points across. I thought meditation was not necessary...after all I had that one experience and all that intellectual and spiritual wealth to get me going. Surely, so I thought, I would reach that experience again. But it was just an ego trip. No additional book brought me an inch closer to it. No additional mental concept gave me the peace I was craving. I was not much different from those priests who hold sermons about God, yet never felt what it means to be in union with God. They just repeat what they've been told. Other people may not see it at first, probably because they don't have the tools to discern the difference. Someone who has been in union with God however, will see through it quite easily.
I was dishonest at that time....with myself first of all, and with others by extension. 

This is the core issue of the whole debate, of the whole (632 pages and almost 19k comments long) thread, of the whole issue with religions, of all the problems in the world. 
"Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". 

You have an issue with how I interpret the Seth material. Do you agree that the interpretation of the bible (for example) depends on the level of development and understanding of those who read it? Some take it literally, some metaphorically etc.... You even mentioned that you re-read Seth after some years and found new things in it, explored new aspects of it. Where you wrong about it before you re-read the material?
Same material, different understanding. 
How difficult then is it to imagine that my interpretation of the Seth material is just different and not wrong? Or my interpretation of reality, for that matter.
Who knows, maybe in 10 years you will read the same books again and interpret them in a very different way....maybe even in my way. 😁

Edited February 7 by Sunmaster

[Tippaporn]

@Sunmaster

 

Just to leave you with this.  I am not a Sethian.  Seth is the entity who provided us with information as to who and what we are, how our reality works, and so much more.  So I don't defend Seth.  What I do defend are those ideas he's given which are a spot on accurate match to actual reality.  When it comes to the range of material nothing I've ever come across can hold a candle to the vast number of topics covered in the material.  Which makes it extremely complex and just as challenging to absorb, make sense of, and utilise that knowledge.

 

After reading don Juan and realising that those were not books that would have much practical value I went searching for something which did.  The overriding, burning question I had for myself was to know how my experience in this world was being created.  With that firmly in mind I would scour the occult sections of every book store I'd run across searching for what I specifically had in mind.  I can't tell you how many books I'd skim through.  Now even at my then level of understanding I had enough common sense which I trusted to spot bullsh!t.  And if I found something which I knew was wrong I'd put it back on the shelf.  I saved myself a lot of money by simply skimming. 

 

Now I did pick up Seth Speaks, skimmed it, and put it back on the shelf.  Not that I found bullsh!t in it but because the ideas seemed a bit far flung for me.  It wasn't until about a year later whilst I was working as a bartender I befriended one of the waitresses.  Her head was in the same place, relatively speaking, and I would talk to her about don Juan.  So one day she came to work and handed me Seth Speaks.  Coincidence?    The rest is history.

 

Now what's always puzzled me is this, and hopefully you can give me your answer.  I've perused a lot of material and all of it was produced by humans.  Fallible  humans.  I had already adopted the beliefs that there was more to us and that we survived death.  So when I began reading Seth's material and found it to be credible, and when I considered the source of it and realised the much vaster perspective that an entity such as a Seth had then I could not ignore the fact that as far as quality of material went I had hit a literal gold mine of information.  It was beyond obvious to me from the get go that material coming from such a source would put anything else produced by mere mortals to shame.  Have you ever had that thought?  I'd love to know how you, having Seth and Vedanta to choose from you picked religion over Seth.  Was it the complexity of Seth's material?  I've never been able to convince anyone on that point.  I could never get anyone to see the immense value of material coming from a source possessing such broad perspective.  For I thought anyone who hungered for quality information would jump at the opportunity for what could be better?

 

In that last post of yours to me you had asked, "Or is the sole goal of a Sethian to "create your reality" and live a content life with good relationships, wealth, happiness in the material world?"  The most obvious implication of your question was that you believed that Seth's material was only to teach people how to create wonderful physical lives and nothing more.  So I wanted to dispel that notion by saying that Seth had always encouraged his readers to use the mobility of consciousness to explore other realities.  Not for the purpose of escaping this one for that would defeat the entire purpose of this existence.  Through his many exercises (123 pages worth when assembled in a single volume) his aim was for the reader to become familiar with what lies outside of this reality for the sole purpose of enhancing the readers present existence.  Markedly different than Vedanta's goal of liberating ones self from not only this world but from the whole reincarnational cycle so one would never have to come back to this place of suffering ever again.  Which, in essence, completely devalues our present existence.  If escape is the only goal why not just off yourself? 

 

Anyway, it's as RP said.  For you it's Vedanta, for me it's the Seth material, and for RP it's George Ivanovich Gurdjieff.  You have your reasons and challenges for coming here, I have mine, and RP has his.  But the Seth material is not the same as Vedanta nor is it the same as Gurdjieff.  One may find similarities and think it's the same but the differences are more vast than the similarities.

 

Cheers,

 

Tippers

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

 

The story devalues knowledge gained from books.  Anyone who has benefited from books would take exception.  Knowledge of ourselves and our reality is to be found everywhere in the world.  And that includes books.  But again, it's the insistence that only direct experience can impart knowledge.  Which is what Vedanta seems to teach.  Uhm, the experience of our physical selves imparts no real knowledge?  Our intellect, intuitions, or emotions don't impart valid knowledge?    It seems to me that you've now got religion, for Hinduism is a religion and Vedanta is a branch of Hinduism, and if it's other than what Vedanta teaches then, well, too bad, it's incorrect, right?

No, the story says that the fortress was necessary at a certain point to gather strength, but in the end it became a prison, for it gave me the illusion of knowledge and therefore separated me from true knowing. 
"There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison."

And no, I'm not religious. I'm actually very surprised (and a bit disappointed tbh) that you would think so. 

if it's other than what Vedanta teaches then, well, too bad, it's incorrect, right?
Did I ever say the Seth material is incorrect? EVER?? You, on the other hand, seem to think that whatever is not aligned with the Seth teachings must be distorted information. You have said so over and over again.
How about that?

Edited February 7 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

@Red Phoenix lurking in the background and steering clear of any involvement. 😁

[Tippaporn]

10 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

@Red Phoenix lurking in the background and steering clear of any involvement. 😁

 

No way is RP going to wade in these waters.  Between the snakes, piranha, crocodiles, alligators, blood sucking leeches, sharks, and boiling waters from underground geysers he's made a wise choice. 

[save the frogs]

14 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

What a nasty and disconnected species that we are......and in particular a specific sub-group of our kind. 

Not to worry - nature's working on it as we speak. 

exactly. 

human beings are disconnected from their creator.

that's why people are dangerous.

best post so far in the entire thread. 

 

[VincentRJ]

I'm no expert on 'Seth', and I have to admit that until I searched the internet for information about him, I assumed he was a real person rather than a 'fictional' character created by the female writer, Jane Roberts, whilst she was in many states of some type of trance, communicating with the paranormal.

 

Her life and writings should be a fascinating subject for parapsychologists. Following are a couple of articles which address her beliefs and her background, which seems quite awful, and which must have influenced her later writings.

 

https://sethresearchproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Cunningham_Contribution-to-the-Study-of-the-Possession-Trance-Mediumship-of-Jane-Roberts_Journal-of-Parapsychology-2019-832-248-267.pdf

 

"Dorothy Jane Roberts was born in Saratoga Springs, New York, on May 8, 1929, the only child of Delmer and Marie (Burdo) Roberts. In 1931, when Jane was two years old, her father and mother divorced. For the next five years, Jane lived on welfare with her mother in half of a rented house shared with her mother’s parents in a relatively poor neighborhood of Sarasota Springs. It was during this time that Jane’s mother began to develop a long-standing rheumatoid arthritis condition that eventually made her bedridden—the same disease of which Jane would die in 1984 at the age of 55. Being raised a Catholic, priests in the parish regularly visited the house to offer help to the family. The sexual overtones of these visits is disclosed in Jane’s recollection about “how the one priest who put her to bed when she was but 3 or 4 years old would ‘play’ with her sexually, and how Marie finally figured that out” (Roberts, 1997, p. 222).
My mother was a strong, domineering woman, probably scared to death of the position she found herself in. She was psychotic, attempting suicide several times and scaring the devil out of me as a kid with threats . . . One day [she] would say that she loved me, and the next day she’d scream that she was sorry I’d ever been born—that I’d ruined her life . 
To escape this unhappy childhood, Jane wrote poetry. By the testimony of those who knew her during these early years, Jane always wanted to become a writer and devote her life to writing poetry, novels, and short stories."
 

This next article addresses her psychic, mediumship processes. It's very convoluted. 

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1/9856/ShawA0516.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

"Writing from the 1960s through the early 1980s, Jane Roberts claimed to channel the teachings of a discarnate energy personality named Seth.  My purpose in this project will be to show that the Seth material, even as a product of the New Age movement, can be read according to the same principles that scholars have developed for approaching the channeled texts of previous eras.  
Because the Seth material comprises dozens of works over thousands of pages, I have focused my investigation on a single text: The God of Jane: A Psychic Manifesto.  Written by Roberts, the book is a memoir which describes her experiences as a medium.  Through various close readings of the manifesto, and by situating the work in a historical and cultural context, I demonstrate that The God of Jane functions as an interpretive guide for reading New Age channeled texts.  In addition, I find that Roberts is not only a literary medium, she is also a literary theorist, who translates the tradition of mediumship into the latter half of the twentieth century."   
 

[save the frogs]

12 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

It was beyond obvious to me from the get go that material coming from such a source would put anything else produced by mere mortals to shame. 

Yeah, one person has it all worked out and all other 6 billion people on the planet are idiots.

It doesn't work like that. 

 

The Bible is essentially an authoritarian text. We have all the answers. We're God and you're a nobody. Just shut up and listen.

How did that work out?

Authoritarianism always leads to corruption.

 

There is no one text anywhere that has all the answers or any authority on anything.

The only real "Bible" is the collective efforts of many intelligent human beings taken together, not any one source that claims to know it all. 

 

Fool's gold.

 

Edited February 8 by save the frogs

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

 

No way is RP going to wade in these waters.  Between the snakes, piranha, crocodiles, alligators, blood sucking leeches, sharks, and boiling waters from underground geysers he's made a wise choice. 

 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

I'm no expert on 'Seth', and I have to admit that until I searched the internet for information about him, I assumed he was a real person rather than a 'fictional' character created by the female writer, Jane Roberts, whilst she was in many states of some type of trance, communicating with the paranormal.

 

Her life and writings should be a fascinating subject for parapsychologists. Following are a couple of articles which address her beliefs and her background, which seems quite awful, and which must have influenced her later writings.

 

https://sethresearchproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Cunningham_Contribution-to-the-Study-of-the-Possession-Trance-Mediumship-of-Jane-Roberts_Journal-of-Parapsychology-2019-832-248-267.pdf

 

"Dorothy Jane Roberts was born in Saratoga Springs, New York, on May 8, 1929, the only child of Delmer and Marie (Burdo) Roberts. In 1931, when Jane was two years old, her father and mother divorced. For the next five years, Jane lived on welfare with her mother in half of a rented house shared with her mother’s parents in a relatively poor neighborhood of Sarasota Springs. It was during this time that Jane’s mother began to develop a long-standing rheumatoid arthritis condition that eventually made her bedridden—the same disease of which Jane would die in 1984 at the age of 55. Being raised a Catholic, priests in the parish regularly visited the house to offer help to the family. The sexual overtones of these visits is disclosed in Jane’s recollection about “how the one priest who put her to bed when she was but 3 or 4 years old would ‘play’ with her sexually, and how Marie finally figured that out” (Roberts, 1997, p. 222).
My mother was a strong, domineering woman, probably scared to death of the position she found herself in. She was psychotic, attempting suicide several times and scaring the devil out of me as a kid with threats . . . One day [she] would say that she loved me, and the next day she’d scream that she was sorry I’d ever been born—that I’d ruined her life . 
To escape this unhappy childhood, Jane wrote poetry. By the testimony of those who knew her during these early years, Jane always wanted to become a writer and devote her life to writing poetry, novels, and short stories."
 

This next article addresses her psychic, mediumship processes. It's very convoluted. 

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1/9856/ShawA0516.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

"Writing from the 1960s through the early 1980s, Jane Roberts claimed to channel the teachings of a discarnate energy personality named Seth.  My purpose in this project will be to show that the Seth material, even as a product of the New Age movement, can be read according to the same principles that scholars have developed for approaching the channeled texts of previous eras.  
Because the Seth material comprises dozens of works over thousands of pages, I have focused my investigation on a single text: The God of Jane: A Psychic Manifesto.  Written by Roberts, the book is a memoir which describes her experiences as a medium.  Through various close readings of the manifesto, and by situating the work in a historical and cultural context, I demonstrate that The God of Jane functions as an interpretive guide for reading New Age channeled texts.  In addition, I find that Roberts is not only a literary medium, she is also a literary theorist, who translates the tradition of mediumship into the latter half of the twentieth century."   
 

 

And your point is?

 

Are you trying to understand what the Seth material is via parapsychology treatises on mediumship?

[Sunmaster]

@Tippaporn

I remember reading years ago about an event (or events) in India, where different schools of thought would come together and battle out their theories in a sort of open tournament. The debates would start by one opponent summarizing the other's point of view, and only once the other opponent declared that that summary was correct, could the first one make his point and refute the opponent's point. Basically, they were all monks beating the philosophical sh!t out of each other. 
This is the way I always saw our exchanges. 

Yesterday I did some soul searching and I came to 2 conclusions:
1) In exchanging blows, I don't regret the content, but I think it could have been delivered with more compassion.
2) In the heat of the debate, I think some spiritual pride tainted my responses. I wanted to offer a nice glass of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, but it was tainted by a drop of lemon.

For this I would like to apologize to you.

 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, one person has it all worked out and all other 6 billion people on the planet are idiots.

It doesn't work like that. 

 

The Bible is essentially an authoritarian text. We have all the answers. We're God and you're a nobody. Just shut up and listen.

How did that work out?

 

There is no one text anywhere that has all the answers or any authority on anything.

The only real "Bible" is the collective efforts of many intelligent human beings taken together, not any one source that claims to know it all. 

 

Fool's gold.

 

 

If there's any one poster here who shows more resistance to understanding more than he currently understands that would be you, Frogs. 

 

Getting you to understand anything outside of your belief system, especially when anything is opposed to your belief system, is the epitome of a 'futile effort'. 

[save the frogs]

3 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Getting you to understand anything outside of your belief system

 

 

I gave you a chance. And I gave you my honest opinion. It's nonsense.

 

I just had a quick glance at that link. 

 

And sure enough, "seth" is talking in riddles.

“SUBCONSCIOUS IS A CORRIDOR. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHICH DOOR YOU TRAVEL THROUGH?”

 

It's a complete joke and a farce.

And I don't need to repeat myself a million times. 

 

[Sunmaster]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

@Tippaporn

I remember reading years ago about an event (or events) in India, where different schools of thought would come together and battle out their theories in a sort of open tournament. The debates would start by one opponent summarizing the other's point of view, and only once the other opponent declared that that summary was correct, could the first one make his point and refute the opponent's point. Basically, they were all monks beating the philosophical sh!t out of each other. 
This is the way I always saw our exchanges. 

Yesterday I did some soul searching and I came to 2 conclusions:
1) In exchanging blows, I don't regret the content, but I think it could have been delivered with more compassion.
2) In the heat of the debate, I think some spiritual pride tainted my responses. I wanted to offer a nice glass of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, but it was tainted by a drop of lemon.

For this I would like to apologize to you.

 

Oh...
Since I clearly won the tournament, I expect my trophy to be delivered within this week. I already have a nice place for it in the living room. 
Cheers