Volunteering

[elviajero]

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

How would authorities know you were renovating to live in it, or renovating to "flip it?"

How would the prove you were renovating to flip it is the question?

 

If I'm standing outside of a bank how do they know if I’m going in to withdraw money or rob it?

 

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

They don't care either way.  They seize an opportunity to extort some money. 

Yes extortion is possible, But that’s nothing to do with endorsement of the law.

 

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

If you are caught on a roof, swinging a hammer, then you are in big trouble, whether it's your house, or not.

Rubbish.

 

I had a house built and have done loads of ‘work’ on it, but never in the capacity of employee (worker) or as an occupation. And I bought and transported many of the materials etc in the back of my pickup.

 

There is no law preventing someone swinging a hammer as long as they aren’t doing it as a ‘worker’.

 

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

So, can a foreigner renovate his bar? 

No. That’s a business and entirely different.

 

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

He can't serve customers in the bar, but can he renovate it? 

He can’t do either without formal permission.

 

51 minutes ago, Leaver said:

He owns the bar, so, according to you, that should be ok.  ???? 

Nope. Entirely different, a bar owner can’t even pick up a glass without permission to work for that bar.

[Leaver]

13 minutes ago, elviajero said:

How would the prove you were renovating to flip it is the question?

 

If I'm standing outside of a bank how do they know if I’m going in to withdraw money or rob it?

 

Yes extortion is possible, But that’s nothing to do with endorsement of the law.

 

Rubbish.

 

I had a house built and have done loads of ‘work’ on it, but never in the capacity of employee (worker) or as an occupation. And I bought and transported many of the materials etc in the back of my pickup.

 

There is no law preventing someone swinging a hammer as long as they aren’t doing it as a ‘worker’.

 

No. That’s a business and entirely different.

 

He can’t do either without formal permission.

 

Nope. Entirely different, a bar owner can’t even pick up a glass without permission to work for that bar.

They don't have to prove anything.  They have the power.  They bang you up.  You pay, or you are deported.  Simple as that.  Do you really think they care if you are going to live in the house, or sell it?

 

"No, that's a business and entirely different" but flipping houses isn't????  Oh, that's right, they have to prove you are going to sell, not you have to prove you are not going to sell.  ????

 

"I've don'e loads of work on it" yes, WORK, which is why you expose yourself to extortion and / or deportation.

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, Leaver said:

And if you do this work to your own house, and sell it shortly after, and then buy another house, and do the same, according to you, no problem. 

 

So what's stopping a foreigner building his own house? 

How can you possibly own something that isn't there yet?

You are arguing for arguments sake. If a person is working on a house with a view to sell it, it is employment. The scenario you describe is a business. Split hairs all you want. If I hang a picture or fix my water pump, or mow my lawn, it is not an issue in the slightest

Edited May 12, 2019 by jacko45k

[Peterw42]

People need to put all the arrested/deported for working stories into context. Nobody has been arrested or deported for hanging a picture.

 

99.9% of these stories are rubbish, 99.9% of the time it turns out the guy was working doing all sorts of things, on the day they arrested him he was hanging a picture. A guy pops up on Thaivisa posting someone (its always 2nd hand) just got arrested for hanging a picture, leaving out the details that he has been serving customers, renovating a bar etc and immigration has been watching him.

 

These stories are always told 2nd/3rd hand, my mate knows a guy who got arrested for washing his own car.

 

Thai authorities always need to reserve the right to call anything work, for the exception when they catch a foreigner going door to door hanging pictures, or washing 10 cars a day for money.

 

I have been reading forums etc for 10 years now and i am yet to see a genuine story of a guy getting arrested for hanging a picture, washing his car, repairs to his own house etc. I have seen plenty of stories like a guy getting arrested for driving his friends to the airport, people up in arms until three pages into the thread it turned out the guy had 3 mini-vans and was doing 5 trips a day to the airport. Or a guy getting arrested for making a cup of coffee in the kitchen at his GFs bar, only to find out later the guy had been making drinks, serving customers and waiting tables.

 

People get in a tailspin believing these stories. 99% of the time the guy was actually working and not the feeble excuse they present to appear innocent.

 

 

[elviajero]

20 hours ago, Leaver said:

Thanks Thomas.  I was in Phuket at the time, so I remembered the incident, but not the finer details.

 

You are correct.  They don't have to prove you are working, you have to prove you are not, which is very difficult to do when you have some dirt on your hands, and some tools laying around.  ????

You’re wrong. They have to prove, in a court of law, that you are working. 

 

Most people accused of working are working, they admit the fact, pay a fine, and that’s the end of it.

 

You are conflating several issues. It’s very simple; the law says we can’t work without permission — in terms of making money (occupation or employment) — it does not say we cannot work — in terms of exerting effort.

[elviajero]

22 hours ago, Leaver said:

As crazy as it is, the way the laws are, you are not supposed to do anything yourself here.  You must pay a Thai to do it for you. 

No they are not. 

 

The law law is designed to protect jobs for Thais and stop foreigners being employed to do jobs a Thai can do.

 

Doing work on your own home is not a job. A Thai doing work for you is a job.

[Leaver]

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No they are not. 

 

The law law is designed to protect jobs for Thais and stop foreigners being employed to do jobs a Thai can do.

 

Doing work on your own home is not a job. A Thai doing work for you is a job.

Just to clarify, are we talking about the rule of law?  That is, the actual words, in black and white, on paper, or are we talking about what happens in reality?

 

Below is the list.

 

In number one position is, "labour."  

 

The word labour is very broad, just the way the Thai authorities intended it to be, so they have discretion, and can manipulate "the spirit of the law."   

 

To use my painting of your own house example, do I think you will be arrested for working illegally, probably not.  Do I think painting your house is classified as "labour" by the MOL, yes, I do, thus, exposing one's self to prosecution.   

 

Take a look at item 3.  "Construction."  Once again, very broad, on purpose. 

 

Now, can you quote me a Thai Law that says a foreign owner of a property is exempt from item 3, simply due to being the owner?  

 

1. Labour work except labour work in fishing boats under the next category below. The said work which is forbidden to aliens shall not apply to aliens who have entered into Thailand under an agreement on hire of labour concluded between the Government of Thailand and other nations, and also aliens whose status has been prescribed as legal immigrant and who possess a residence certificate under the law governing immigration.
2. Agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishery, except work requiring specialized knowledge, farm supervision, or labour work in fishing boats, particularly marine fishery.
3. Bricklaying, carpentry, or other construction work.
4. Wood carving.
5. Driving motor vehicles or vehicles which do not use machinery or mechanical devices, except piloting aircraft internationally.
6. Front shop sales and auction sale work.
7. Supervising, auditing, or giving service in accountancy, except occasional internal auditing.
8. Cutting or polishing precious or semi-precious stones.
9. Haircutting, hairdressing, or beautification.
10. Cloth weaving by hand.
11. Mat weaving or making utensils from reed, rattan, jute, hay, or bamboo.
12. Making rice paper by hand.
13. Lacquer work.
14. Making Thai musical instruments.
15. Niello work.
16. Goldsmith, silversmith, or gold/copper alloy smith work.
17. Stone work.
18. Making Thai dolls.
19. Making mattresses or quilts.
20. Making alms bowls.
21. Making silk products by hand.
22. Making Buddha images.
23. Knife making.
24. Making paper or cloth umbrellas.
25. Making shoes.
26. Making hats.
27. Brokerage or agency except in international trading.
28. Professional civil engineering concerning design and calculation, systemization, analysis, planning, testing, construction supervision, or consulting services, excluding work requiring specialized techniques.
29. Professional architectural work concerning design, drawing/making, cost estimation, or consulting services.
30. Dressmaking.
31. Pottery.
32. Cigarette rolling by hand.
33. Tour guiding or conducting.
34. Hawking of goods & Thai typesetting by hand.
35. Unwinding and twisting silk by hand.
36. Clerical or secretarial work.
37. Providing legal services or engaging in legal work, except arbitration work; and work relating to defense of cases at arbitration level, provided the law governing the dispute under consideration by the arbitrators is not Thai law, or it is a case where there is no need to apply for the enforcement of such arbitration award in Thailand.

 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Now, can you quote me a Thai Law that says a foreign owner of a property is exempt from item 3, simply due to being the owner?  

Yes I can, the Immigration Act.

“Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :
1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the
law concerned.”

 

If I'm doing some carpentry on my own property I am not being employed by anyone so the Alien Employment Act doesn’t apply, and neither is it my occupation, so I do not require permission.

 

You are conflating a job of work as a carpenter etc. with carpentry. My neighbour cannot employ my time, paid or unpaid, to do some carpentry for them, but no law stops me doing carpentry for myself as long as it’s not for financial gain (an occupation).

 

You are quoting a list of jobs that foreigners aren’t allowed to do to protect Thai jobs.

 

See No.32 on your list. A foreigner cannot be employed as a cigarette roller, but there is nothing stopping them rolling their own cigarettes!

 

If I want to make myself a hat or dress I can, but I can’t make them to sell or be employed as a milliner or dressmaker.

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Just to clarify, are we talking about the rule of law?  That is, the actual words, in black and white, on paper, or are we talking about what happens in reality?

 

Below is the list.

 

In number one position is, "labour."  

 

The word labour is very broad, just the way the Thai authorities intended it to be, so they have discretion, and can manipulate "the spirit of the law."   

 

To use my painting of your own house example, do I think you will be arrested for working illegally, probably not.  Do I think painting your house is classified as "labour" by the MOL, yes, I do, thus, exposing one's self to prosecution.   

 

Take a look at item 3.  "Construction."  Once again, very broad, on purpose. 

 

Now, can you quote me a Thai Law that says a foreign owner of a property is exempt from item 3, simply due to being the owner?  

 

1. Labour work except labour work in fishing boats under the next category below. The said work which is forbidden to aliens shall not apply to aliens who have entered into Thailand under an agreement on hire of labour concluded between the Government of Thailand and other nations, and also aliens whose status has been prescribed as legal immigrant and who possess a residence certificate under the law governing immigration.
2. Agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishery, except work requiring specialized knowledge, farm supervision, or labour work in fishing boats, particularly marine fishery.
3. Bricklaying, carpentry, or other construction work.
4. Wood carving.
5. Driving motor vehicles or vehicles which do not use machinery or mechanical devices, except piloting aircraft internationally.
6. Front shop sales and auction sale work.
7. Supervising, auditing, or giving service in accountancy, except occasional internal auditing.
8. Cutting or polishing precious or semi-precious stones.
9. Haircutting, hairdressing, or beautification.
10. Cloth weaving by hand.
11. Mat weaving or making utensils from reed, rattan, jute, hay, or bamboo.
12. Making rice paper by hand.
13. Lacquer work.
14. Making Thai musical instruments.
15. Niello work.
16. Goldsmith, silversmith, or gold/copper alloy smith work.
17. Stone work.
18. Making Thai dolls.
19. Making mattresses or quilts.
20. Making alms bowls.
21. Making silk products by hand.
22. Making Buddha images.
23. Knife making.
24. Making paper or cloth umbrellas.
25. Making shoes.
26. Making hats.
27. Brokerage or agency except in international trading.
28. Professional civil engineering concerning design and calculation, systemization, analysis, planning, testing, construction supervision, or consulting services, excluding work requiring specialized techniques.
29. Professional architectural work concerning design, drawing/making, cost estimation, or consulting services.
30. Dressmaking.
31. Pottery.
32. Cigarette rolling by hand.
33. Tour guiding or conducting.
34. Hawking of goods & Thai typesetting by hand.
35. Unwinding and twisting silk by hand.
36. Clerical or secretarial work.
37. Providing legal services or engaging in legal work, except arbitration work; and work relating to defense of cases at arbitration level, provided the law governing the dispute under consideration by the arbitrators is not Thai law, or it is a case where there is no need to apply for the enforcement of such arbitration award in Thailand.

 

Better stop driving yourself around as per Number 5.

 

[Leaver]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:38 PM, elviajero said:

Yes I can, the Immigration Act.

“Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :
1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the
law concerned.”

 

If I'm doing some carpentry on my own property I am not being employed by anyone so the Alien Employment Act doesn’t apply, and neither is it my occupation, so I do not require permission.

 

You are conflating a job of work as a carpenter etc. with carpentry. My neighbour cannot employ my time, paid or unpaid, to do some carpentry for them, but no law stops me doing carpentry for myself as long as it’s not for financial gain (an occupation).

 

You are quoting a list of jobs that foreigners aren’t allowed to do to protect Thai jobs.

 

See No.32 on your list. A foreigner cannot be employed as a cigarette roller, but there is nothing stopping them rolling their own cigarettes!

 

If I want to make myself a hat or dress I can, but I can’t make them to sell or be employed as a milliner or dressmaker.

 

"If I'm doing some carpentry on my own property I am not being employed by anyone so the Alien Employment Act doesn’t apply" but in reality, this is where you are exposed to extortion.  Authorities will argue you are "working" on the house to make it more attractive for sale, thus, "earning" money from your "labor." 

 

Do you trust Thai authorities enough to have a sensible and reasonable conversation with them?  I don't.  You were caught with tools in your hands and they can demand money from you.

 

Look at the guys that were building their own boats.  I believe it was their first boat, not like they had built and sold boats before, but still banged up. 

 

It's really like the different immigration offices with their different interpretations of the the new visa laws.  It's up to their own opinion, not the rule of law.

 

Many people have said on this thread, "it's ok, you can do it, but if you have upset someone they can make a call and have you arrested."  There is some truth to this, because the definition of "labor" is basically, physical excursion.

 

A good example in online remote workers.  They, and their computer, are based in Thailand, but the customer is outside of Thailand.  They are working in Thailand, but are they breaching  The Alien Employment Act?  Yes, they are, but where is their employer?  Have they taken a Thai job?  is online remote working, "labor" yes it is, thus, work permit needed.    

Edited May 13, 2019 by Leaver

[Leaver]

On 5/12/2019 at 10:01 PM, Peterw42 said:

Better stop driving yourself around as per Number 5.

 

Number 5 is a good one.  Just goes to show how they purposely put such open ended laws in. to be able to manipulate them to suit themselves, and the circumstances. 

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Number 5 is a good one.  Just goes to show how they purposely put such open ended laws in. to be able to manipulate them to suit themselves, and the circumstances. 

I think they need to keep them open ended, the day they say its ok for foriegners to do something is the day it will be abused. The enforcement isnt as draconian as the stories you hear. Its usually the guys that are actually working, not the guy doing repairs at home etc. The day they say forigners can wash their own car, is the day someone will open a car wash business, of course foriegners can wash their own car but authorities cant come out and say that.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Peterw42

[Leaver]

18 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think they need to keep them open ended, the day they say its ok for foriegners to do something is the day it will be abused. The enforcement isnt as draconian as the stories you hear. Its usually the guys that are actually working, not the guy doing repairs at home etc. The day they say forigners can wash their own car, is the day someone will open a car wash business, of course foriegners can wash their own car but authorities cant come out and say that.

I accept that if a guy is washing his car out the front of his house, there is near zero chance of being arrested. 

 

My point is, washing a car is performing "labor" is it not?  Aren't we talking about the black and white letter of the law, and the disgraceful way i is manipulated by Thai authorities?

 

Do you feel secure "working" on your house with such grey areas that can be used against you?

 

The car washing is a basic example, probably too basic for my point, but construction activity, even to one's own house, is considerably more risky. 

 

As I have said, can you feel secure "hiding" behind "ownership?"  Do Thai authorities even care who owns whatever you are "working" on?  I don't think so. 

 

I am not being argumentative. I just don't trust Thai authorities to be "reasonable" if I have some dirty on my hands and some tools laying around.     

Edited May 13, 2019 by Leaver

[Peterw42]

8 hours ago, Leaver said:

I accept that if a guy is washing his car out the front of his house, there is near zero chance of being arrested. 

 

My point is, washing a car is performing "labor" is it not?  Aren't we talking about the black and white letter of the law, and the disgraceful way i is manipulated by Thai authorities?

 

Do you feel secure "working" on your house with such grey areas that can be used against you?

 

The car washing is a basic example, probably too basic for my point, but construction activity, even to one's own house, is considerably more risky. 

 

As I have said, can you feel secure "hiding" behind "ownership?"  Do Thai authorities even care who owns whatever you are "working" on?  I don't think so. 

 

I am not being argumentative. I just don't trust Thai authorities to be "reasonable" if I have some dirty on my hands and some tools laying around.     

I do feel secure working on my own house (even if it is rented) as there doesn't appear to be any history, or intent, of Thai authorities enforcing the laws in that instance. But saying that, I would jump on the roof to find/repair a leak but I would probably draw the line at re-roofing the whole house. If the authorities drove past and saw me up a ladder replacing a cracked roof tile, I dont think they would care less. They may have a word if I have scaffolding and a crane set-up, re-roofing the house by myself.

Take away all the urban myths and you wont find Thai work police patrolling the streets looking for a foreigner with a hammer in his hand.

[KhunHeineken]

51 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I do feel secure working on my own house (even if it is rented) as there doesn't appear to be any history, or intent, of Thai authorities enforcing the laws in that instance. But saying that, I would jump on the roof to find/repair a leak but I would probably draw the line at re-roofing the whole house. If the authorities drove past and saw me up a ladder replacing a cracked roof tile, I dont think they would care less. They may have a word if I have scaffolding and a crane set-up, re-roofing the house by myself.

Take away all the urban myths and you wont find Thai work police patrolling the streets looking for a foreigner with a hammer in his hand.

When talking about the black and white letter of the law, this is the part of your argument I do not understand.

 

You say it's fine to change 1 broken tile, but not a whole roof.  I get that. 

 

Theoretically, if the roof had 100 tiles on it, how many tiles would you feel comfortable changing, before Thai authorities deem you to be retiling the whole roof?

 

Is changing 1 tile acceptable?  Is changing 10 tiles acceptable? 

 

The way I see it is, it's not what you think is acceptable, it's what's in the black and white letter of the law.  

 

Isn't changing 1 tile the same "labour" as changing the whole 100 tiles? 

 

I'm not being pedantic, just trying to illustrate that to the letter of the Thai law, the 1 tile is the same as the 100 tiles, is it not?

 

I do see your point, of course a quick repair of 1 tile to stop a leak on your own house poses near zero chance of arrest, but like you said, have a crane and scaffolding set up, and you may have some trouble.  

 

What if you had a crane and scaffold just to change that 1 tile?

 

Once again, the point I am making goes to the strict enforcement of the Thai law, as it appears, in black and white, not what actually happens.

 

I remember a similar discussion on TV some time ago.  Foreign guest house and small hotel owners with picking up their customers from the airport.  Some of the owner's argued it was just customer service, a meet and greet.  I certainly didn't see it that way, but they truly believed as they owned the guest house, and owned the car, and bounced a couple of emails around for a booking, they could pick up their "new friends" from the airport, and it was not "working" because the airport pick up was "complimentary."

 

Now, if you are my friend, and I ask you to take me to the airport, and I tell you I will buy dinner and drinks for you when I am back, is that "working" (labour) or just friendship? 

[Peterw42]

18 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

When talking about the black and white letter of the law, this is the part of your argument I do not understand.

 

You say it's fine to change 1 broken tile, but not a whole roof.  I get that. 

 

Theoretically, if the roof had 100 tiles on it, how many tiles would you feel comfortable changing, before Thai authorities deem you to be retiling the whole roof?

 

Is changing 1 tile acceptable?  Is changing 10 tiles acceptable? 

 

The way I see it is, it's not what you think is acceptable, it's what's in the black and white letter of the law.  

 

Isn't changing 1 tile the same "labour" as changing the whole 100 tiles? 

 

I'm not being pedantic, just trying to illustrate that to the letter of the Thai law, the 1 tile is the same as the 100 tiles, is it not?

 

I do see your point, of course a quick repair of 1 tile to stop a leak on your own house poses near zero chance of arrest, but like you said, have a crane and scaffolding set up, and you may have some trouble.  

 

What if you had a crane and scaffold just to change that 1 tile?

 

Once again, the point I am making goes to the strict enforcement of the Thai law, as it appears, in black and white, not what actually happens.

 

I remember a similar discussion on TV some time ago.  Foreign guest house and small hotel owners with picking up their customers from the airport.  Some of the owner's argued it was just customer service, a meet and greet.  I certainly didn't see it that way, but they truly believed as they owned the guest house, and owned the car, and bounced a couple of emails around for a booking, they could pick up their "new friends" from the airport, and it was not "working" because the airport pick up was "complimentary."

 

Now, if you are my friend, and I ask you to take me to the airport, and I tell you I will buy dinner and drinks for you when I am back, is that "working" (labour) or just friendship? 

The guest house example is the very reason the laws exist and are enforceable if required.. The guy is abusing the spirit of the law so then the letter of the law steps in.

Calling a customer a friend or its complementary is semantics. 

Nobody has ever been arrested for picking up friends at the airport. People have been arrested when they try and dress up working as picking up friends.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Peterw42