Dozens drown on Libya migrant boat; Italy impounds rescue ship

[bert bloggs]

3 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I'm pretty sure their home towns were nice before Euro colonialists robbed them blind and kidnapped millions for slavery.  In fact, every year archaeologists are finding more and more evidence of advanced civilizations in the 3rd world that were decimated by colonialism.  Rewriting the history books we were taught from.  Written, of course, by the winners.

 

Thats history ,this is now , keep it about now or is that all you have?,

[John1012]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Any suggestions for them? 

 

Two that many will not like. Recolonization of all these war torn countries, restructure their economies  and educate their people. Tribalism is the base problem. Zimbabwe...Brits leave 1980, 2019 Zimbabwe has degenerated to  a third world shithole. South Africa quickly following. Unfortunately the problem was probably caused by the original colonization...Nigeria 1851 , now look at the Christian Genocide by the followers of Islam.If these countries were places of peace and prosperity then there would be NO mass migration. The people are leaving for a better easier lifestyle. Another solution is that all asylum seekers be interred until such time as they can speak the  local language , can contribute to the local economy and fully understand the local social structure and laws. We feed,educate,supply health care but until these 'escapees' fully understand our societies and can integrate. We do not let them just roam at will...look at the streets of Paris, shithole of France, Sweden 'rape captital of Europe'. They always have a choice, return to their land of origin or be patient, learn, integrate and contribute. Our politicians do not have the courage to do this, except for a few European countries some Far Eastern countries. Far too much virtue signalling and character weakness amongst our population....offended by words...safe spaces....myopic view of invasive violent cultures. 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

Yet another tragedy with the loss of innocent lives.  Didn't this whole exodus from Libya originally start by the destabilisation of Libya in order to depose Gaddafi  ?

Yes provided opportunity for people smugglers, in parallel terrible mistreatment in detention centres

[simple1]

19 minutes ago, John1012 said:

Two that many will not like. Recolonization of all these war torn countries, restructure their economies  and educate their people. Tribalism is the base problem. Zimbabwe...Brits leave 1980, 2019 Zimbabwe has degenerated to  a third world shithole. South Africa quickly following. Unfortunately the problem was probably caused by the original colonization...Nigeria 1851 , now look at the Christian Genocide by the followers of Islam.If these countries were places of peace and prosperity then there would be NO mass migration. The people are leaving for a better easier lifestyle. Another solution is that all asylum seekers be interred until such time as they can speak the  local language , can contribute to the local economy and fully understand the local social structure and laws. We feed,educate,supply health care but until these 'escapees' fully understand our societies and can integrate. We do not let them just roam at will...look at the streets of Paris, shithole of France, Sweden 'rape captital of Europe'. They always have a choice, return to their land of origin or be patient, learn, integrate and contribute. Our politicians do not have the courage to do this, except for a few European countries some Far Eastern countries. Far too much virtue signalling and character weakness amongst our population....offended by words...safe spaces....myopic view of invasive violent cultures. 

A great deal of Far right 'virtue signalling'. BTW not so long ago I was in Paris & let me tell you many of the low life living on the streets were 'white' drunks.

[metisdead]

A callous troll post has been removed. 

 

An off topic post has been removed. 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

No point having immigration laws or visas at all if we are going to continue this madness of letting economic migrants flout them by claiming to be 'asylum seekers'. There are after all potentially millions more almost all uneducated and unskilled Africans itching to come over. Europe is full.

EU countries do have checks in place to identify 'economic refugees' and refuse refugee status. The problems faced to enforce deportation are well documented with EU countries still in catch up mode for government to government agreements to facilitate enforcement. In the meantime some members ignore the legislative processes required, repeatedly using similar OP stories for welcoming mass drownings at sea and other comments for vilification of the dead & victims of human trafficking. 

[impulse]

42 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Thats history ,this is now , keep it about now or is that all you have?,

 

Face it.  We're paying penance for the sins of our forefathers.  And will be for centuries.  And our descendants will be paying for our greed for centuries.  Sucks, but that's what happens when we don't learn from history.

 

 

[bert bloggs]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

Face it.  We're paying penance for the sins of our forefathers.  And will be for centuries.  And our descendants will be paying for our greed for centuries.  Sucks, but that's what happens when we don't learn from history.

 

 

So are the Italians suffering ,with hordes of us Brits invading their country? well they should be because they invaded us ,oh and those pesky Danes , we all ought to go over there and claim social ,they invaded us , see i can be silly as well ,its history , now is now .

[geoffbezoz]

21 minutes ago, simple1 said:

A great deal of Far right 'virtue signalling'. BTW not so long ago I was in Paris & let me tell you many of the low life living on the streets were 'white' drunks.

And I bet you were the tight Aussie who wouldn't give me and my mates 10 Euro for a drink ?   ????

[bert bloggs]

23 minutes ago, simple1 said:

A great deal of Far right 'virtue signalling'. BTW not so long ago I was in Paris & let me tell you many of the low life living on the streets were 'white' drunks.

Yea right ,i was there a few years ago ,not what i saw ,and a Thai friend was there on Business a few months ago ,robbed by An African .

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

So are the Italians suffering ,with hordes of us Brits invading their country? well they should be because they invaded us ,oh and those pesky Danes , we all ought to go over there and claim social ,they invaded us , see i can be silly as well ,its history , now is now .

 

You're really going off the rails.  Would Brits be better off invading Italy or Denmark, or staying right where they are?

 

See the difference?

 

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

So are the Italians suffering ,with hordes of us Brits invading their country? well they should be because they invaded us ,oh and those pesky Danes , we all ought to go over there and claim social ,they invaded us , see i can be silly as well ,its history , now is now .

It's a very difficult situation with immigrants/refugees, but shooting them or let them starve is not an option, developed countries have the moral duty to respect human rights.

As "Impulse" said, it's the price that we are paying, after exploiting human and natural resources of the 3rd world for centuries.

It's more complex than that, of course, the public opinion is well divided, and there are not quick and easy solutions.

 

[giddyup]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

And were on the receiving end of all the loot pilfered from the former colonies.

 

And those former colonies pilfered from neigbours or countries they conquered. Way of the world.

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, giddyup said:

And those former colonies pilfered from neigbours or countries they conquered. Way of the world.

 

True.  But the former colonies didn't divvy up their neighbors with borders that made no sense from an ethnic or nationalist standpoint when they could no longer afford to keep their boot on their neighbors' throats.  Bankrupt because they just couldn't stop fighting over which cousin got to be king of where.

 

[Vacuum]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

We're going to be paying for past sins for centuries.  If only we could learn from history and not be committing new sins that will haunt us even longer.

Greed will prevent this.

[giddyup]

17 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

True.  But the former colonies didn't divvy up their neighbors with borders that made no sense from an ethnic or nationalist standpoint when they could no longer afford to keep their boot on their neighbors' throats.  Bankrupt because they just couldn't stop fighting over which cousin got to be king of where.

 

Borders have been changed all through history, only have to look at Germany and Russia to see that. Africans invaded and conquered each other for centuries. Present day is not responsible for the past, can only learn by it, and the human race is pretty slow to do that.

[bert bloggs]

5 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Borders have been changed all through history, only have to look at Germany and Russia to see that. Africans invaded and conquered each other for centuries. Present day is not responsible for the past, can only learn by it, and the human race is pretty slow to do that.

Your dead right ,and we have to learn very fast that if we let these hordes of economic migrants keep coming ,the west as we know it is finished ,it will just be like the hell holes they created then left .

but i think it is never going to happen ,the bleeding hearts will just let them keep coming and scream racist at those who appose it .

[Opl]

 

We are activists from Watch The Med Alarm Phone

Edited May 11, 2019 by Opl

[Morch]

Buy your tickets for the mass-self-flagellation-ride from some of the posters above. Africa wasn't paradise lost before the colonialist era. And whatever evils brought about by colonialism (neatly putting aside the not so evil ones, that is), there's probably a pass-by date on locals not being held accountable for anything.

 

That said, topic isn't really about colonialism. There are many factors motivating migration from Africa to Europe, insisting on this being the sole, or core issue is about as helpful as some of the crass comments thrown from the other side of the isle. People run away or migrate from Africa elsewhere for various reasons, only to get labeled and lumped together according to political views of commentators.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

EU countries do have checks in place to identify 'economic refugees' and refuse refugee status. The problems faced to enforce deportation are well documented with EU countries still in catch up mode for government to government agreements to facilitate enforcement. In the meantime some members ignore the legislative processes required, repeatedly using similar OP stories for welcoming mass drownings at sea and other comments for vilification of the dead & victims of human trafficking. 

 

I think we've discussed this point on numerous past topics, for some years now. In real terms, do you feel that there were actual advances with regards to related government processes and measures?

[metisdead]

A troll post and the replies has been removed. 

 

An off topic obfuscation post about Thailand's immigrant issues has been removed. 

[usviphotography]

Good for Italy. Salvini is proving himself to be one of the best leaders in Europe, and he's doing it while not even technically being the head of the government. Ships should be seized and the human traffickers that fund these operations should be criminally charged. If the continent had been united in a Salvini style approach, this nonsense would have ended long ago and these people would still be alive today. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by usviphotography

[jinners]

7 hours ago, Tug said:

No they never do.just something nasty to say .how lucky we are not to be born in a bad country 

OK say something nice. What is your suggestion?

[Orton Rd]

Could not recommend Douglas Murrays book the strange death of Europe enough, at least he went to investigate first hand. It's available free on YT as an audio book

 

 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

In real terms, do you feel that there were actual advances with regards to related government processes and measures?

Yes. EU governments, albeit slowly, are putting in place govt to govt agreements for return of deportees. Increasing funding for work creation projects in some source countries and so on. There is some disagreement from human rights organisation e.g. return to Libya where there is known abuse of returnees / asylum seekers in some detention centres.

 

You will know the flow of asylum seekers / economic refugees has significantly reduced from the 2015 peak. If you're interested, to give you some insight, is a report provided below showing the nationality and numbers of asylum seekers entering the EU in the 2017 - 2018 period, together with some other EU related asylum seeker statistics

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache/13562.pdf

 

http://www.europeanmigrationlaw.eu/en/articles/news/eurostat-asylum-decisions-in-the-eu-2018.html

 

https://www.asylumineurope.org/news/25-01-2019/asylum-statistics-2018-changing-arrivals-same-concerns

 

An example of some good news, some bad news...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany/germany-fails-to-deport-nearly-every-second-asylum-seeker-idUSKCN1QD0LT

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by simple1

[simple1]

5 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Yea right ,i was there a few years ago ,not what i saw ,and a Thai friend was there on Business a few months ago ,robbed by An African .

Different experiences. However, I've been robbed by a white guy - ergo all white guys are street robbers...

[from the home of CC]

9 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Given the history of exploitation and Euro colonization of most of those hell holes, and the way they were dropped like hot potatoes when they were no longer of strategic use, and divided by the Allies along untenable borders that made no ethnic or nationalist sense, I wouldn't refer to them as refugees. 

 

I'd call them the chickens.  Coming home to roost. 

 

We're going to be paying for past sins for centuries.  If only we could learn from history and not be committing new sins that will haunt us even longer.

 

 

 

a real intelligent post - also applies to what occurred here in Thailand and the subsequent strife in the south..

[Morch]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Yes. EU governments, albeit slowly, are putting in place govt to govt agreements for return of deportees. Increasing funding for work creation projects in some source countries and so on. There is some disagreement from human rights organisation e.g. return to Libya where there is known abuse of returnees / asylum seekers in some detention centres.

 

You will know the flow of asylum seekers / economic refugees has significantly reduced from the 2015 peak. If you're interested, to give you some insight, is a report provided below showing the nationality and numbers of asylum seekers entering the EU in the 2017 - 2018 period, together with some other EU related asylum seeker statistics

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache/13562.pdf

 

http://www.europeanmigrationlaw.eu/en/articles/news/eurostat-asylum-decisions-in-the-eu-2018.html

 

https://www.asylumineurope.org/news/25-01-2019/asylum-statistics-2018-changing-arrivals-same-concerns

 

An example of some good news, some bad news...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany/germany-fails-to-deport-nearly-every-second-asylum-seeker-idUSKCN1QD0LT

 

 

 

Thanks. I should have phrased the question a bit differently. Obviously there are changes and advances, but is the pace in which they occur or introduced, adequate?

 

Most of the figures seem to reference asylum seekers, which I'm not sure covers all cases. With that in mind, it can be noted that countries taking up a sterner, more restrictive approach, see a significant decrease in this regard. So, without identifying with said policies and accompanying narrative, measures seem rather effective.

 

Could be wrong, but seems like there are some matters of presentation. For example, the last link talks about Germany failing to deport 27,000 rejected applicants (about 50%) in 2018. That sounds bad enough, but when considering that's just one year, and relates only to applicants - figures are actually way higher.

[ivor bigun]

Different experiences. However, I've been robbed by a white guy - ergo all white guys are street robbers...

Is that so ,was it here in Pattaya or France or England ,?

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Thanks. I should have phrased the question a bit differently. Obviously there are changes and advances, but is the pace in which they occur or introduced, adequate?

 

Most of the figures seem to reference asylum seekers, which I'm not sure covers all cases. With that in mind, it can be noted that countries taking up a sterner, more restrictive approach, see a significant decrease in this regard. So, without identifying with said policies and accompanying narrative, measures seem rather effective.

 

Could be wrong, but seems like there are some matters of presentation. For example, the last link talks about Germany failing to deport 27,000 rejected applicants (about 50%) in 2018. That sounds bad enough, but when considering that's just one year, and relates only to applicants - figures are actually way higher.

The term asylum seekers covers all cases. naturally there would be those not identified such as those trafficked into the EU. Remember a few years back it was estimated by Europol (?) 10,000 under age children had disappeared

 

IMO there is improvement in how acceptable governments are dealing with the issues. As an example Germany is now achieving a 50% success rate for deporting rejected asylum seekers, prior to 2018 a lot less. Faster and better funded processing of asylum seekers which contributes to lessen societal tensions etc. By 'acceptable governments'  I compare to the right of centre EU governments who are indulging in State sponsored vilification of all asylum seekers, refusal to accept any asylum seekers for processing, genuine refugees, authoritarianism and so on.