UK ever more polarised as Brexit Party storms to EU vote win

[Chelseafan]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

It has been the contention of Brexiteers on this forum and Farage too, that the Tories have done everything they can to not deliver Brexit. 

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

That's a different kettle of fish. We know the overall consensus of politicians from all parties (other than Brexit party) is that they want to remain however the Tories have based their agenda on leaving. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

Because then democracy is dead. We voted and the establishment didn't like the result so they'll get us to vote again and again and again until we wear people down and get what we want.

What happens if the result is the same ? What happens if remain wins? Another referendum? After all it's 1-1.

I don't mind another referendum as long as the questions asked are leave with deal or leave without a deal.

 

Democracy is far from dead. 

 

The democratic debates, votes in parliament, demonstrations and all the good stuff of democracy are continuing. 

 

If anything public engagement is higher than it has ever been. 

 

Away with you and your talk of 'the establishment'.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[stevenl]

30 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I don’t recall “don’t know” being an option on the referendum ballot paper.

 

They have to swing one way or the other......

Not difficult, but still apparently too difficult.

[Mike Teavee]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not really.

 

Anyone who was determined that the uk should remain would have voted for the 'change' or Lib Dems parties.

 

I'm still suprised that remainers are arguing that only those who voted brexit/ukip were genuine leave voters, whilst endorsing the idea that those who voted green/snp etc. were firm remain voters ......

Why wouldn't somebody vote Green if the rest of the Parties policies aligned closer to their own beliefs & obviously Scotland, Ireland & Wales have their locally focused parties to vote for.

 

I wasn't arguing that only  those who voted Brexit/UKIP were genuine leave voters, I was stating that if the most important thing to you was Brexit/No 2nd Referendum that was your choice of parties, if you were pro 2nd Referendum then you would choose from any of the ones I mentioned, if it wasn't your main priority you would vote with the party that reflected that... Must say it is laughable that nobody can say with any certainty what the 2 "Major" parties stance is on 2Rm, that's why (IMHO) they lost so many votes 

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Democracy is far from dead. 

 

The democratic debates, votes in parliament, demonstrations and all the good stuff of democracy are continuing. 

 

If anything public engagement is higher than it has ever been. 

 

Away with you and your talk of 'the establishment'.

 

 

 

 

We hold different views on what democracy means.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

We hold different views on what democracy means.

 

 

That's fine, in a democracy we can debate the issue. 

[stevenl]

26 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

The Tories have always said they would deliver Brexit, making them a leave party. Really not difficult to understand.

Labour on the other hand...well who knows!

So the fact they have not delivered does not play a role?

 

Up until now, only fools see them as a leave party.

[Basil B]

18 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

Other than the fact the Tories have spent the past three years trying to get to deliver Brexit..If that's not a pro-Brexit party then I don't know what is.

Tories are split and many of them voted for other parties... that's why they could not deliver brexit.

[Mavideol]

6 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

We hold different views on what democracy means.

 

 

by accepting each other different opinions it's democracy at its best, keep it up folks 555

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Hooray for Nigel Farage.  He is the British version of Donald Trump.  I hope he shakes the crap out of England, it needs it.

comparing Trump with Farage, you're right, I don't like Farage either. It's a bad comparison though because sometimes Farage almost speaks the truth and even he has more class than Trump.

Edited May 28, 2019 by soalbundy

[Mavideol]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

comparing Trump with Farage, you're right, I don't like Farage either.

agree, they both look/act like used car sales guys

[soalbundy]

Just now, Mavideol said:

agree, they both look/act like used car sales guys

True but I think Farage would sell you a car that would work for at least 2 weeks.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

True but I think Farage would sell you a car that would work for at least 2 weeks.

You sound like two children in the playground calling a teacher you don't like, do they have spiders in their hair too?

[Nanglon]

33 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

What happens if the result is the same ? What happens if remain wins?

That was my whole point - if the result is the same we leave and stop whingeing - this an attempt to move on from the present deadlock. If remain win, Art 50 withdrawn. People are allowed to change their opinions. How else do we move forward without the same old arguments repeated, and no compromise?

[sanemax]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So the fact they have not delivered does not play a role?

 

Up until now, only fools see them as a leave party.

Con/Lab are neither Remain or Leave parties .

Politicians within both parties have differing views .

Some Conservatives are Remain , some are leave .

Same as Labour .

Cameroon was a Remainer , Boris is a leaver , both Conservatives .

Same goes for supporters of both Political parties .

Neither party wants to be seen as either Leave or Remain , because it would alienate many of their supporters , so, both sit on the fence

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Nanglon said:

That was my whole point - if the result is the same we leave and stop whingeing - this an attempt to move on from the present deadlock. If remain win, Art 50 withdrawn. People are allowed to change their opinions. How else do we move forward without the same old arguments repeated, and no compromise?

No, if Remain were to win another referendum , that would make it 1-1 

There would need to be another referendum , to see who would win 2-1

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, Nanglon said:

I prefer 'remain' but understand we lost due I think partly to the divisive nature of 50% + 1 (ok, ok 1.7m votes) and also understand a 'leave' poster who said any referendum should only be 2 choices leave with deal, or leave no deal respecting the vote.

 

So in order to overcome the parliamentary impasse, why not re-run referendum, due to the continuing division but instigate a min referendum of 60% required to effect any future change / introduction of something (money where our mouth is) and anything less than 60% remain, the original vote stands, bad luck we all accept the 'will' of the people and move on.

 

So everyone supposedly more informed, can confirm their wishes to break us out of the paralysis.

The first referendum simply needed a majority. Leave got a majority.

 

So now you want to run it again, but this time Leave needs 60%. What will Remainers say if Leave gets 60.1%? It was only just past 60% therefore it's not valid? Claim Leavers are stupid/racist and didn't know what they voted for and therefore it's not valid? Wait 12 months until 0.1% of the Leave vote has died and claim we need another vote? Wait 3 years, re-run but this time Leave needs 70%? Just vote again for the sake of it because apparently the more votes we do the more democratic we are? ???? 

 

[Nanglon]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

No, if Remain were to win another referendum , that would make it 1-1 

There would need to be another referendum , to see who would win 2-1

Am offering a solution .... you just making fun.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Con/Lab are neither Remain or Leave parties .

Politicians within both parties have differing views .

Some Conservatives are Remain , some are leave .

Same as Labour .

Cameroon was a Remainer , Boris is a leaver , both Conservatives .

Same goes for supporters of both Political parties .

Neither party wants to be seen as either Leave or Remain , because it would alienate many of their supporters , so, both sit on the fence

Yes, that is exactly what myself and others have been saying here. However some of your leave brethren want to see them, especially the Tories, included in the leave parties so they show a majority.

 

I don't think Boris is a leaver BTW, he just goes in the direction he thinks the wind blows hardest to.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The first referendum simply needed a majority. Leave got a majority.

 

So now you want to run it again, but this time Leave needs 60%. What will Remainers say if Leave gets 60.1%? It was only just past 60% therefore it's not valid? Claim Leavers are stupid/racist and didn't know what they voted for and therefore it's not valid? Wait 12 months until 0.1% of the Leave vote has died and claim we need another vote? Wait 3 years, re-run but this time Leave needs 70%? Just vote again for the sake of it because apparently the more votes we do the more democratic we are? ???? 

 

Maybe ask Farage, after all he said a 2% majority could not be decisive.

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Con/Lab are neither Remain or Leave parties .

Politicians within both parties have differing views .

Some Conservatives are Remain , some are leave .

Same as Labour .

Cameroon was a Remainer , Boris is a leaver , both Conservatives .

Same goes for supporters of both Political parties .

Neither party wants to be seen as either Leave or Remain , because it would alienate many of their supporters , so, both sit on the fence

I disagree. You can't say that every LibDem MP is a Remainer. However, their official party line is Remain (mainly to pick up some easy votes but that's another point) so we count them as Remain.

 

The Tories manifesto is to Leave. The fact that some Tory MP's would rather remain does not mean they are not a Leave party. Any more than a LibDem MP that wishes to Leave makes the Lib Dems a Leave party.

 

If you count LibDem as Remain, you have to count Tory as Leave. The only parties that guarantee MP's are 100% Remain or 100% Leave are The Brexit party (plus UKIP) and Change UK. Compare those.

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, Nanglon said:

Am offering a solution .... you just making fun.

How can you expect Leavers to accept 1-1 as a defeat, when Remainers will not accept 0-1 as a defeat?

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Maybe ask Farage, after all he said a 2% majority could not be decisive.

Why would I ask Farage? He doesn't make the rules any more than you or me.

 

 

[TopDeadSenter]

15 minutes ago, Nanglon said:

Am offering a solution .... you just making fun.

A best case scenario for the remainers would be 1-all. A 1-1 result is far from a solution. It would absolutely require a "decider", and then seeing as the losers of the original and "ONE TIME ONLY" referendum did not accept the initial loss, who is to say they will respect losing the decider. So it could easily run to a best of 5 or best of 7. Clearly the best decision would be for the losers to suck it up, have some dignity and respect that they lost, and let's get on with Brexitting asap.

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I disagree. You can't say that every LibDem MP is a Remainer. However, their official party line is Remain (mainly to pick up some easy votes but that's another point) so we count them as Remain.

 

The Tories manifesto is to Leave. The fact that some Tory MP's would rather remain does not mean they are not a Leave party. Any more than a LibDem MP that wishes to Leave makes the Lib Dems a Leave party.

 

If you count LibDem as Remain, you have to count Tory as Leave. The only parties that guarantee MP's are 100% Remain or 100% Leave are The Brexit party (plus UKIP) and Change UK. Compare those.

Nonsense. The Lib Dems loudly and strongly based their campaign on Remain. They were the place to go for disaffected Conservatives and Labourites who were pro-remain. As the results show. Is anybody even aware of what other issues they campaigned on? Did they campaign on other issues?  And since there were significant percentages of Tories against leaving, and significant percentages of Labour voters for Brexit, it's impossible to currently break down where those who remained loyal to their party stood. 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

A best case scenario for the remainers would be 1-all. A 1-1 result is far from a solution. It would absolutely require a "decider", and then seeing as the losers of the original and "ONE TIME ONLY" referendum did not accept the initial loss, who is to say they will respect losing the decider. So it could easily run to a best of 5 or best of 7. Clearly the best decision would be for the losers to suck it up, have some dignity and respect that they lost, and let's get on with Brexitting asap.

Well, the leader of the Brexit party disagrees with you:

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

 

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

[Chelseafan]

So the fact they have not delivered does not play a role?
 
Up until now, only fools see them as a leave party.

Whether they have delivered or not is not the point. MPs from both labour and the conservatives overwhelmingly voted to leave back in 2016. Granted there is in fighting in both parties but May has been consistant with her leave means leave slogan. In my book that makes the tories a leave party and that has been their position Over the past three years. That may change with a new leader

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[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Well, the leader of the Brexit party disagrees with you:

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

 

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

The context of what he said , he thought that the then forthcoming Referendum would be an unfair result , because the UK Gov sent everyone a letter , a leaflet in favour of remain .

[Chelseafan]

Nonsense. The Lib Dems loudly and strongly based their campaign on Remain. They were the place to go for disaffected Conservatives and Labourites who were pro-remain. As the results show. Is anybody even aware of what other issues they campaigned on? Did they campaign on other issues?  And since there were significant percentages of Tories against leaving, and significant percentages of Labour voters for Brexit, it's impossible to currently break down where those who remained loyal to their party stood. 

Please read their manifesto. They were fighting on two fronts. Brexit and climate change. There vote is mixed. Also they did not score as highly as the brexit party.

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[Nanglon]

40 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The first referendum simply needed a majority. Leave got a majority.

 

So now you want to run it again, but this time Leave needs 60%. What will Remainers say if Leave gets 60.1%? It was only just past 60% therefore it's not valid? Claim Leavers are stupid/racist and didn't know what they voted for and therefore it's not valid? Wait 12 months until 0.1% of the Leave vote has died and claim we need another vote? Wait 3 years, re-run but this time Leave needs 70%? Just vote again for the sake of it because apparently the more votes we do the more democratic we are? ???? 

 

Read it ...... Remain needs 60% to overturn the last vote, if they don't get it, Leave wins!!!!