Alzheimer's patient forced out of Thailand: Daughter tells Thaivisa they love Thailand but immigration rule changes mean mum must go

[Jingthing]

Wow! I find that to be rather unbelievable. I also find it rather strange that some Westerners have to resort to retire in a far cheaper place such as Thailand as if the social security and healthcare systems in the West have failed.

Sorry to burst your bubble then.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[scorecard]

I wonder if this dear lady or her relatives gave permission for that photo to be used like this?

[HeyHeyHey]

16 hours ago, oslooskar said:

No, it is a very bad thing that immigration rules in Europe are all but nonexistent. The West needs to get tough on immigration so it doesn't end up like Sweden.

We need more Trumps

 

- I can't own house in your country, you can't own it here

- no permanent visas even if married for us? Non for you too

 

sure, it's way easier to get tourist visas in Asian, but there aren't floods of Americans, Ozzies, or Europeans trying to get illegal job in Asia

[Cake Monster]

On 5/28/2019 at 3:48 AM, Jingthing said:

Half baked policy changes mean many good people are getting burned and many others are left feeling raw.

There are more rich rogues and crooks than poor ones.

Bad boys in, good guys out .

But hey ! The Thais dont care where the money comes from.

[Cake Monster]

15 hours ago, Selatan said:

Frankly, as a Malaysian, I find it rather surprising that so many Westerners in Thailand don't have the 800k baht required. You guys come from high-income countries. I think the typical Malaysian middle-class earner would consider that amount to be not that much, considering that Malaysia is just a middle-income country. If really don't have the 800k, then totally deserved to be kicked out.

 

Is it because Westerners generally don't have a savings habit?

What ! And Thais do have a savings habit 

[dsc221077]

On 5/28/2019 at 2:02 AM, Jingthing said:

Tip of the iceberg. Think of all the people that will leave, are soon leaving or have already left due to the weirdly changed and unclear immigration policies that never post and never make the news.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

Nothing is above humanity she must be allowed to live in Chiang mai as long as she lives. 

O my God you gave this beautiful mom a life long illness and people made it more difficult by making foolish rules for such a beautiful mom.

Special cases must be considered as no one can be confident about the future.

[dsc221077]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:48 PM, Selatan said:

Frankly, as a Malaysian, I find it rather surprising that so many Westerners in Thailand don't have the 800k baht required. You guys come from high-income countries. I think the typical Malaysian middle-class earner would consider that amount to be not that much, considering that Malaysia is just a middle-income country. If really don't have the 800k, then totally deserved to be kicked out.

 

Is it because Westerners generally don't have a savings habit?

Mind your words as this can happen anywhere anytime and with anyone.

[bkk6060]

On 5/29/2019 at 1:18 AM, Selatan said:

 I think the typical Malaysian middle-class earner would consider that amount to be not that much, considering that Malaysia is just a middle-income country. If really don't have the 800k, then totally deserved to be kicked out.

 

 

The median wage in Malaysia is less then 800 US a month.

That is not middle class as they would be on welfare and food stamps in many countries.

I bet the majority of Malaysia do not have even close to 800 k b saved and their monthly salary is way way below the 65,000 b required in Thailand.

So, seems Malaya is a poor country in my book with most unable to qualify to stay in Thailand.

Edited May 29, 2019 by bkk6060

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 6:38 AM, sqwakvfr said:

“There she will easily get a three year visa without bothersome financial hassles”

 

How? What kind of PI Visa?  I researched living in Manila or Cebu for years and discovered the PI’s version of the Retirement Visa is more difficult to obtain the LOS.  

I'm finally able to answer some of these questions. What you find about PI immigration online, is mostly a bunch of services offering help with getting the SRRV visa (special retirement). I think it's hard to find the other options because these services are throwing money at advertising their services.
I had a very hard time trying to contact immigration directly. There are no email addresses listed, only phone numbers. But if you call, no one answers. It was frustrating.
However, I finally contacted Bureau of immigration on their Facebook page via private message! I got this ... (copy and paste)

Good Day! Please be informed that Under Executive Order 408, U.S. nationals may enter the Philippines without a visa for a stay not exceeding thirty (30) days provided that they are holders of a passport valid at least six (6) months beyond the period of stay in the Philippines, and possess return or outward bound tickets to their country of origin or next country of destination. Kindly click the link provided below:
http://immigration.gov.ph/faqs/travel-req

If she wish to stay longer than 30 days, she may apply for a visa waiver for 29 days , then, may apply for one month, two months or six months up to 36 months extension. Please note that the application must be done at least 7 days before the expiration of the visa and/or authorized stay. There is a corresponding fee for the filing of extension of stay. Please be informed that we don’t give payment breakdowns through social media. However, you may call our Cash Section at 465-2400 locals 109, 114, 115. Thank You.
 

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 5:36 AM, donnacha said:

I feel bad for the lady with Alzheimer's, but something is fishy about this story.

An American husband and wife team who ran a Web design business successful enough to be sold, and still relatively young, are unable to drum up one bank deposit of $25K which will allow their mother to stay in Thailand until she passes.

During the course of their business careers, did they not forge strong enough relationships with clients or collaborators to be able to ask around for help now that they have a real problem?

Don't they have have any family or family friends in America? Is gathering $25K really such an insurmountable challenge? 

Do they really think that living in Manila is going to be that much cheaper than Chiang Mai?

Do they understand how much harder it is to find a place to live there, and how much more expensive rent and utilities are?

Have they ever experienced the existential struggle of trying to find edible food in the Philippines?

Surely, if they had made any friends at all in during their 4 years in Thailand, someone would have pointed out that they can simply pay $600 per year for an agent to grease the wheels for them and stay right here in Chiang Mai. I mean, seriously, that is less that what their flights to Manila will cost them.

 

My guess is that their back story is bullshit and this is an attempt to salt gullible people, farang and Thai, into donating money to them. They have no intention of folding up their tents and moving their circus to Manila.

 

We are not going to pay someone to "grease the wheels". LOL .. really? That is just wrong and really sketchy.

Who would ask around for money from others for a situation that HAS a solution. Not how we roll ... and just for your information, just because we are American and previous business owners, doesn't mean we are rich. We're not. 

We do take care of our own, and would not put that burden on others. If you have seen anyone asking for donations for my Mom, then please report them to me or authorities, because it's not legit.

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:02 AM, alanrchase said:

They pay 85,000 baht a month for their mother to be cared for. The mother would appear to have a Thai bank account. Why didn't they adjust their finances to show the 85,000 baht being transfered monthly to the Mother's bank account?

The 65k has to come from a foreign account ... deposited into Mom's Thai account. They require a letter from the bank verifying such transactions. 
An additional stumbling block, is that Social security (Mom's pension) will not deposit money into a foreign account. It's very complicated actually, and not all was covered in this article. But in the end, it was just not possible.

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:06 AM, niebla said:

If the son or daughter is on a retirement visa and has a birth certificate the mom can be added as a dependent on the son/daughter's retirement visa with no income or 800,000 requirement. 

We checked that out too. But it is only if she physically LIVES with us and we have proof. Not to mention the multiple immigration officers we spoke with that had NO IDEA about the "dependent" option. 

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:14 AM, fantom said:

I agree with many of the preceeding comments. Nowhere do I see any suggestion the family have been to an agency such as AssistThai rather than winging this on their own.

A professional agency would have steered them to arrange their finances legally and within the rules.  From preceding comments from those much wiser than I, it would seem there are a number of options they should have considered.

The article did not cover all the details. We went to multiple agencies and Thai lawyer. 

[ThaiBunny]

This is not the sort of thing that only happens in Thailand - see this Australian article https://thewest.com.au/news/immigration/perth-great-grandmother-mollie-manley-93-faces-being-deported-to-england-ng-b881222150z

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:18 AM, baansgr said:

They could have her move in with them, hire a care worker and split care between them. The 85,000 a month saved could then be used as income. I understand it wouldn't be easy for them and would infringe on their relaxing retirement but she is their Mother after all .. Its an option that that the Mother could sray here so unfair to blame immigration. 

She did live with us. She requires 24/7 care, which we tried our best to provide, along with hired carers. For many many reasons, including strangers showing up at our door with my terrified Mom who got out of the gate at like 5am, this did not work. If you've never tried to care for a stage 6 Alzheimer's patient, who doesn't even know you you are half the time, then don't assume this would be an option.

[BadSpottedDog]

3 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

This is not the sort of thing that only happens in Thailand - see this Australian article https://thewest.com.au/news/immigration/perth-great-grandmother-mollie-manley-93-faces-being-deported-to-england-ng-b881222150z

WOW! This is so sad! You would think Australia would do better ????

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:25 AM, Old Croc said:

So, the family doesn't currently live in CM, but Khanom, the opposite end of Thailand and about 1200 kms away from where their mother is hospitalized. Not exactly providing close support to her.  They do have a daughter of their own working nearby on Samui.

For me this indicates they didn't bring the mother here to be close to her, but to take advantage of SE Asia's cheaper nursing facilities. If the Philippines is even cheaper, and the mother apparently doesn't know the difference, what's the problem?

And, is it really fair for people to dump their chronically ill relatives into the Thailand health system because the richest country on earth doesn't provide for their sick and elderly?

 

 

Ummm .. we brought her here to live with us. Which she did in Samui. Only when we felt we could not keep her safe, did we move her to Chiang Mai. I think you're assumption calibration needs adjusting.

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 8:51 AM, newnative said:

    The story doesn't make sense.  First they say they don't have 800,000 to put in the bank and they are forced to move their mother out of Thailand.  But, then later in the story they say they put 800,000 in the bank and the mother could stay until February of next year but they decide to move the mother anyway as her condition has deteriorated and it's 'now or never'.  So, in reality, the mother isn't being 'forced out' of Thailand.  It sounds like they found an alternative in the Philippines that's 1/3 cheaper and that's the real reason they are moving her.   Maybe they are hoping to get some sympathy donations with their pseudo sob story.  

We don't have 800k x 3, and we will not accept donations. We have figured out a solution. Now, just hoping the Thai government comes up with a solution for elderly whose families are supporting them here.

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:18 AM, donnacha said:

I do not have time to respond to every post that quoted me, but I see that a surprising amount of people, including you, are confused about how the system works.

The official reasoning behind the 800K requirement is that this is additional money you have available to you to cover emergencies such as medical treatment for heart attacks, car accidents, strokes etc.

The Thai government does not want to get stuck with these costs. Neither does any government - even in the UK, if a British citizen is out of the UK for six months, they are no longer entitled to free National Health Service treatment.

For most humans, the medical costs of their final month before death will exceed the medical costs of the entire life that went before.

When they see that this unfortunate woman can only just about afford the cost of her monthly care, the immigration officials know that this leaves her with nothing to cover any number of expensive medical problems she may also suffer in addition to her Alzheimer's. Their whole job is to make sure that Thailand does not end up paying for that.

I am not saying that what they do is good, but it is their responsibility. If you asked them about this specific case, they would ask why a developing country such as Thailand should have to pay the end-of-life costs of a lady from a developed country such as the United States.
 
 

Why in the world would anyone want to treat a stage 6 Alzheimer's patient for other medical issues? Bottom line is, if they pass away from something else, it's a blessing. Dying from Alzheimer's is a slow and painful process. The patient forgets to breathe and swallow, cannot communicate, doesn't know their family, etc etc etc. It's a horrible way to go. 
Most families with patients like these opt for no medical intervention except to simply keep the patient as comfortable as possible ... as in this case.
Additionally, I have known patients with serious illnesses here, but not enough money to pay. The hospitals give them absolute minimum. Maybe oxygen and IV for fluids. That's it. Then they die. I can promise you that Thailand is not, or will not foot the bill for patients who can't pay. I've seen it.

Edited June 6, 2019 by BadSpottedDog
addition

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 1:37 PM, Beggar said:

This is strange. If they transfer 80,000 Baht every month then they should get a retirement visa - only 65,000 are needed. And if you can spend 80,000 Baht a month a bank account with 800,000 Baht deposit should not be impossible. Somehow this story doesn't really make sense to me. Or these people behave in a manner that is hard to understand for me. 

Make that x3. We are THREE people in our family. Now triple those amounts and add the 86k per month for care. Then come back and comment.

[BadSpottedDog]

On 5/28/2019 at 2:14 PM, Travelerusa40 said:

Sounds like Elder Abuse to me???? on the kids part. Their mom could qualify for Medical care in the states, if she was indigent. If she is not indigent they would take any retirement, pension, or trust assets and deduct this from the cost of managing her care which would include giving her room and board. America does take care of the old. I know of the facility in CM where there mom was and non of the care givers speak English. If one does by chance, she is not the one taking care of there mom she would be the person you meet along with the doctor who speaks English and is in call for the whole facility. So, it looks like the nursing home business that are popping up in THAILAND is going to have a big problem. Especially all those Foreign Seniors in Nursing home that have been left there by there kids who only visit periodically. 

 

However, if the mom has assets in her trust and has not liquidate enough to qualify for Medicare or Medicaid she will have to use up all the trust money - which means the kids would get nothing. Very common in America that the parents must exhaust all finances to qualify for state assistance. If my mother was 77 I would not be dragging her around ASIA. I would ask a doctor in the US to help her get into a care facility and yes it would cause her to exhaust all her money but after that the state and Dede pick up the bill. Nothing would be left for the children and being in there 50’s they might have to go back to work. So, who is living off of there moms money? There mom or the kids? I think this is Elder Abuse in the kids part. Every parents wants to leave there child money, but every parent expects that the money they created in retirement would go to benefits them first b fore there children. ????. I hope the kids do the write thing with there mother. It sounds lik they are in charge and living off her Trust. The Trust are to benefit the Trustee not the beneficiaries. 

Such an inconsiderate person you are to call someone abusive, when you don't have facts. Shame on you. You must not be from the states, or either you have never been through this ordeal. 
Medicare does not pay for long term care. Mom doesn't qualify for medicaid because she makes more than $600 per month with her social security. She did not have any assets or no "trust" ... LOL. She was a housewife all her life.
We bought her a HOUSE so she could be close to us. We called on ALL available programs that were available for help in our area. Hospice, Occupational therapy, etc. I cooked all of her meals and we paid all of her bills. Then she further declined, and could not live alone. We worked and could not afford in home care. Private Alzheimer's facilities cost around $10,000 per month. So, now what would YOU do? 
Have you actually gone to look at medicaid facilities in the states? I wouldn't put my worst enemy in one, much less my own mother. Now THAT would be abuse! Filthy conditions with 4-6 people per room in hospital beds. The nurses strive to keep everyone in wheelchairs or beds because they are easier to manage. It made me sick.
Asia has been FAR FAR superior to the options in the states. And you must not know which facility in CM I was referring to, because the staff DOES speak English. (find the video of Dementiaville on Jumpstart Asia).

Before you comment, don't jump to stupid conclusions, and don't comment on something you know nothing about. While you're at it, please learn how to spell.
 

[Beggar]

4 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Make that x3. We are THREE people in our family. Now triple those amounts and add the 86k per month for care. Then come back and comment.

It is a pretty simple story without a lot of calculation. Either these people can afford to live here or not. If not they should shut up and leave. They just create problems then to others.