US Alzheimer's patient: Goodbye Thailand - it was nice knowing you

[BradinAsia]

4 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

My mom's somewhere in heaven, but I'd never ever have sent her to the Phillippines and go back home where I believe I belong to. 

They just got rid of her, that's all. 

 

Healthcare in the Philippines isn't what I'd want for my mother. https://borgenproject.org/healthcare-in-the-philippines/

 

 

 

We lived in Thailand for 6 years, the last 4 yrs was in Chiang Mai. We returned to the Philippines

just over 2 yrs ago. Excellent health care is readily available in both Thailand and the Philippines,

however that health care is indeed much more expensive in Thailand.

 

Also, living anywhere long-term overseas involves many factors obviously, not only health care.

One big disadvantage of living in Thailand is the cost and complexity of the entire immigration

process. In the Philippines, with a a Philippine immigrant visa, once a year I go to immigration 

and pay 310 pesos (190 baht) and I'm good for one more year. It's very hard to beat that.

 

 

 

 

[cougar52]

18 hours ago, RandolphGB said:

They can't / don't want to submit the required deposit for the visa. The logical step then is to leave. Am I missing something?

The Visa requirement including Mother, Daughter, and Husband is a unbelievable 2,400,000 Baht + 1,020,000 for the care for Mom. Not counting the money for Mom is an astounding nearly $76,000 to park it in a bank just for a visa, and no living money . Unbelievable.

 

[THAIPHUKET]

Thailand vs India vs Philippines??

 Even Thai government worries about premiums for private hospital insurance getting out of control it makes good sense to explore fall back options.

How get get a realistic  cost comparison, Thai, India, Philippines?

Overall living quality India better?

[Thaidream]

21 minutes ago, donnacha said:

No, they are staying in Thailand. It is only her mother who is getting left in a Manila care home.

This is not pedantry. People are objecting to the way in which the daughter, instead of owning her decision, has blown up this drama and deliberately used wording that has left most members here, including you, with the impression that they are all being forced to leave by callous government bureaucracy.

She is attributing cruelty to a country that has been a good host to her family. It turns out that the $3k per month that good care costs here, although a quarter of what the same care would cost in the US, is too high a burden for the daughter. It would be for me too. So, she is leaving mum over in Manila where the cost is only $1K.

Some have argued that a good daughter would stay there with her mother rather than continue her early retirement in Thailand, others point out that her presence might make little difference to her mother.

What is certain, however, based on the facts that the daughter herself has revealed, is that her decision has nothing to do with the Thai authorities and she is quite happy to keep living here herself.

While your post presents a summary of what you perceive the situation is, you are missing the fact that this family is under extreme pressure attempting to do the best thing they can for their loved one.  As I said in a prior post, no one understands that stress or hopelessness until they  are in the situation.

 

Some people are caught up in the way the daughter blamed Thai immigration for the whole situation. 

 

It is my belief they could have worked out an extension if they wanted to. The family could have used an agent. They could have had the Hospice go to Immigration with documentation.   They could have just ignored the whole issue and gone into overstay. I doubt Thai Imm is going to deport a 77 year old lady with this condition when she is under care and paying for it.

 

Most of us on this board understand how to work through issues with Immigration- It is possible the family did not have the  understanding of how to do this or have the foresight to ask for help prior to making their decision.

 

They could have also reached a point of exhaustion dealing with the care of mother all these years and the financial challenge that it took. Maybe they gave up because the  discussion with Thai immigration was the last straw.  None of us know for sure.

 

A situation like this spread over so many years is as debilitating for the family as the person who is ill.  This, I do know for sure.

 

I would not wish this situation on anyone and I hope no one on this forum has to face it with themselves or their loved ones.

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, cougar52 said:

an astounding nearly $76,000 to park it in a bank just for a visa, and no living money

$25K each for three retired Americans, deposited, with the goal that they have the money to pay when they inevitably need expensive medical help.

In what world is it not possible for American citizens to accumulate $25K during their working lives?

The problem here is clearly the cost of the specialist care needed to cope with their mother's Alzheimer's. That ongoing $3K per month dwarves the cost of the mother's deposit.

If people consider $25K per person to be, as you say, an "astounding" amount for Americans to have put aside for emergencies, I do not understand what they are doing floating around Asia.

All this fuss about the bank deposit was intended to be a distraction, knowing that people were already sore about it, but step back and think logically: is this about a $25K deposit or saving $2K in cold, hard cash every month?

Is it possible that the daughter is projecting anger at the Thai government because she is guilty about her own decision to dump her mother in Manila while continuing to live in Thailand herself? Would we all not be equally upset and angry in the same situation?

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by donnacha

[moutamine]

No worries. She will forget Thailand just the same!

Edited May 29, 2019 by moutamine

[malibukid]

2 hours ago, RobertH said:

My mother and my father paid all their taxes all their lives, they paid into social security and Medicare. They were middle class. When the time came that they needed medical care for Alzheimer's and cancer, Medicare didn't cover all the costs, and the costs that weren't covered would have wiped them out. Every doctor and every hospital back home told us the exact same thing: "our healthcare system is broken." Your response shows you are living in a fantasy world, not the real world of the USA today.

why won't the American people wake up and vote for change?  look what they got in 2016????

[malibukid]

2 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Yes I was thinking the same, I would have thought the Thai immigration would have excepted this as her income paid to the care home... now Thailand has lost a revenue as she leaves for Manila..

Short term thinking again!

Buddhist country,  like America is a Christian country

Edited May 29, 2019 by malibukid

[Sealbash]

Makes me want to leave Thailand. Not because of the story (I sympathize greatly) but because of the sad reflection most of the posts so far in this thread are on the expats of Thailand.

Don’t confuse “expats of Thailand” with TVF posters.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[malibukid]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

They were not doing it legally. They were falsely stating the lady's income in order to get an embassy letter. Like many others, they ran into problems when the government started to insist that only verified proofs of income were acceptable.

The provision that their false statements was circumventing was the one designed to ensure that elderly retirees here have at least some money stashed away to pay their own costs on the way out. There would be no need for the 800K or equivalent income requirement if the country was not getting stuck with these costs.
 

 

When you get Alzheimer's, you don't just neatly die of that. The rest of your body continues to deteriorate as it normally would and, as you progress through your 70's you become statistically more likely to suffer a heart attack, or a stroke, or you might develop cancer. At that age, even just a flu can put you into an ICU for months, and none of those costs would have been covered by the 86K they were paying for her residential care.

Did you think people just float away when they get old?
 

 

I have just as much difficultly as anyone else in making sure that my future medical costs are covered. I find reality unfair every day.

What sickens me is when people like you grandly pretend that there is some sort of magical way that all the people, like this woman's daughter, who find ways around the rules, are not causing real harm to others.

Not just you, but all the idiots on ThaiVisa who loudly insist that Thailand is "not  Buddhist enough" or is somehow attacking Westerners by insisting we make at least some provision to cover our own costs. We all know what is coming, deciding to ignore that and presume that others will swoop in to save you is the worst form of cynicism.

There is nothing smug about pointing out that someone is distorting the truth and making wild claims to camouflage their own negligence.
 

sorry but i do not see a lot of compassion here.  i see tragedy every day in the way the Thai's treat their animals and children.  i volunteer, not sure what you do?

Edited May 29, 2019 by malibukid

[Chazar]

2 hours ago, cnx355 said:

But in the Philippines they have a Human Touch visa for people that need medical care. Maybe that is a choice for them.

SRRV Human Touch

For ailing retirees, 35 years old & above, who need/require medical/clinical care. A monthly pension of at least US$1,500.00, a health insurance policy accepted in the Philippines, and an SRR Visa deposit of US$10,000.00 are required.

And Filipino nurses are very good, many end up in the UK, friend of  mine just  married one about 3  years ago, they live in the UK

[donnacha]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While your post presents a summary of what you perceive the situation is, you are missing the fact that this family is under extreme pressure attempting to do the best thing they can for their loved one.

I believe all my posts have expressed a sympathy I genuinely feel for both mother and daughter, but we should all reject a blatant attempt to manipulate public opinion, even if only intended to give her a sense of justification for her decision to move her mother to Manila.

You can be simultaneously sympathetic and reject attempts to distort the discourse.

I am genuinely worried that we are entering a dangerous world in which feelings trump reality, and people are too scared to point out hokem when they see it. More and more people now shroud all they do in high drama, creating a context in which any criticism or, even, gentle questioning of what they are doing is considered a vicious attack.

What happened to this family is tragic, but it is patent bullshit to scapegoat a fairly mundane retirement requirement simply because you have failed to make proper provision for your sick mother.

[Phredd]

My Wife Died from Fronto Temporal Dementia, I'm told there are about 128 different types of Dementia, my wife was one of the unlucky ones, of whom only about 2% are stricken by it. What I want to say here mainly is, what I learnt very early in her diagnoses, that One must not get Angry with them, but you sure as Hell can get Angry with the Disease.

[rexall]

1 hour ago, Pedrogaz said:

Sorry, but why should Thailand be a dumping ground for the world's Alzheimer's patients? All over the first world with people living longer the Alzheimer's population is exploding....why should Thailand take in any of these people....try taking her to Australia or UK and asking for free care? Or offering $1000 US per month? The daughter has taken responsibility for this woman who sadly didn't plan for her retirement very effectively....but spare us the heartbreak story, please.

I believe the family has been paying B85K monthly to the care facility in CM,  so your argument about "free care" doesn't make any sense in context.  As to why Thailand "should" take in any of these people, it is hardly a mystery. For the $$$, of course! Health care tourism is a sub-set of the tourist industry, maybe an important sub-set.  There is a lot of money in it for the providers, and the recipients, benefit from reduced costs and possibly better care, or at least more attention. I am sure that the care facility in CM is not pleased to lose a paying patient, and hardly feels protected by the actions of Imm.

Why "should" any country be the "dumping ground" for any demographic from another country?  Why should the U.S. be the "dumping ground" for nurses from the Philippines who cannot obtain employment in their home country? 

[shy coconut]

It seems odd to me that in the original thread on this topic it was suggested that the

mother could piggy back the daughter's visa.

 

Perhaps the real reason they are shipping out to Manila is that the daughter is having 

trouble meeting the requirements as well as paying for the care.

 

As usual there seems to be a few key elements missing from the sad story.

[micmichd]

19 hours ago, Kasane said:

The patient needs to be on Medicaid. She paid all her life for Medicare, now that she is ill US don't want to care for its citizen who is now terminally ill. Reminds me of unscrupulous insurance companies who drop coverage when the patient really needs them. 

Then, why do Medicaid or Medicare not pay for treatment in Thailand (where treatment is much cheaper than in the U.S.A.)?

[donnacha]

25 minutes ago, malibukid said:

sorry but i do not see a lot of compassion here.  i see tragedy every day in the way the Thai's treat their animals and children.

What you call "compassion" could more accurately be described as "fostering delusion". 

If you spread the alluring idea that this family's misfortunes are the Thai government's fault, that the requirement to set aside a paltry $25K is the problem here, you are encouraging thousands of retirees on low budgets to ignore the reality that, at some point, they will need serious amounts of care, and that such care is likely to be extremely expensive.

This whole story should give all of us the opportunity to stop and realize that we are not just going to live until 80 or whatever and, then, gently pass away surrounded by loved ones. Like this woman, it is far more likely that we will spend a decade or more requiring expensive care and, probably, a few operations costing tens of thousands of dollars per pop.
 
What does your "compassion" give them if they don't happen to be a popular YouTuber who can rescue themselves by begging for Kickstarter donations?

Will you be around to volunteer them a bypass surgery when they need one but have no insurance or money set aside to pay for it?

Again, I see this "white knighting", this egoistic elevation of compassion above all else, as a gross indulgence that costs you nothing but, ultimately, inflicts real damage on the people who are dumb enough to listen and buy into the delusion you are selling.    
 

25 minutes ago, malibukid said:

i volunteer, not sure what you do?

I help to identify charlatans on ThaiVisa.

I sincerely hope that your volunteer work does not involve teaching children how to write in English.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by donnacha

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, micmichd said:

Then, why do Medicaid or Medicare not pay for treatment in Thailand (where treatment is much cheaper than in the U.S.A.)?

Because expats are perceived to have no political power back in the USA and that perception is correct.

[terje johnsen]

thailand not force them out the law say 800 000 baht in bank or 65000 baht in income i guess her mother have pension in the us that is more then 65000 baht and she have been there sinse 2015.

 

it should not be dificult to prove 65000 baht or more in income.

[newatthis]

53 minutes ago, donnacha said:

Agreed, absolutely. Thailand has been a good host to them, and to all of us.

Despite all the corruption, idiocy and puffed-up buffoonery, there is a gentleness and essential civility to life in Thailand that no longer exists elsewhere. That is why we are all here. 

Sure, the ending of the embassy letter loophole has inconvenienced a lot of people, but surely everyone always understood that it was just a loophole, not some sort of right.

Are grown men really going to descend into a bitter persecution complex simply because a country tightens up a situation that would not have been affordable, for any country, as people continue to live longer and require more expensive care as they age?

Thailand continues to be a remarkably soft universe. It has its problems, of course, but we are here because it is the land of a million loopholes, not least the one that allows elderly men to live like playboys. It is hypocritical to complain when they finally get organized enough to close the one loophole that could end up bankrupting their system ???? 

 

So, after all those smooth, endearing words you're just basically here for the cheap sex. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, newatthis said:

So, after all those smooth, endearing words you're just basically here for the cheap sex. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

I neither said I was elderly nor male ????

[rexall]

16 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I believe all my posts have expressed a sympathy I genuinely feel for both mother and daughter, but we should all reject a blatant attempt to manipulate public opinion, even if only intended to give her a sense of justification for her decision to move her mother to Manila.

You can be simultaneously sympathetic and reject attempts to distort the discourse.

I am genuinely worried that we are entering a dangerous world in which feelings trump reality, and people are too scared to point out hokem when they see it. More and more people now shroud all they do in high drama, creating a context in which any criticism or, even, gentle questioning of what they are doing is considered a vicious attack.

What happened to this family is tragic, but it is patent bullshit to scapegoat a fairly mundane retirement requirement simply because you have failed to make proper provision for your sick mother.

Your concluding paragraph contradicts your previous professions of sympathy, et al. Rules can be made, rules can be changed, rules can be bent, rules can be overlooked, exceptions can be made, it happens all the time. Ultimately, the optics of a situation may be more important than the raw facts. Imm cannot win the optics game of appearing to kick out a 77 year old Alzheimer's sufferer!   Which is ironic considering the over-concern with "face" in Thai and other Asian cultures, doncha think?

Yeah, there is something "fishy" in this story, it doesn't all add up. But that is precisely what makes it interesting, and allows this thread to continue for 8 pages so far.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, terje johnsen said:

thailand not force them out the law say 800 000 baht in bank or 65000 baht in income i guess her mother have pension in the us that is more then 65000 baht and she have been there sinse 2015.

 

it should not be dificult to prove 65000 baht or more in income.

Why would you assume her pension was at least 65K? Based on what evidence? The average US social security check is about 45K. 

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, shy coconut said:

It seems odd to me that in the original thread on this topic it was suggested that the

mother could piggy back the daughter's visa.

There would be a good argument for considering the mother as a dependent of the daughter, which would involve some paperwork but would certainly get around the need for the mother to have her own deposit.

Again, the issue here is the ongoing cost of care rather than the one-off deposit. Manila is cheaper no matter which way you cut it.

[donnacha]

3 minutes ago, rexall said:

Your concluding paragraph contradicts your previous professions of sympathy, et al.

A. I have sympathy for their situation.

B. I understand the financial decision to leave her mother in Manila.

C. I have no patience for the blatant dishonesty of pretending that the decision was forced upon her by a fairly standard retirement requirement.

All these things can be true at once. They are not at all opposites, as contradiction would require.

[Thaidream]

18 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I believe all my posts have expressed a sympathy I genuinely feel for both mother and daughter, but we should all reject a blatant attempt to manipulate public opinion, even if only intended to give her a sense of justification for her decision to move her mother to Manila.

You can be simultaneously sympathetic and reject attempts to distort the discourse.

I am genuinely worried that we are entering a dangerous world in which feelings trump reality, and people are too scared to point out hokem when they see it. More and more people now shroud all they do in high drama, creating a context in which any criticism or, even, gentle questioning of what they are doing is considered a vicious attack.

What happened to this family is tragic, but it is patent bullshit to scapegoat a fairly mundane retirement requirement simply because you have failed to make proper provision for your sick mother.

You make a good point and while I agree with 75% of your narrative, you have failed to understand that it's just possible that this family had reached the end and that Thai Immigration refusal was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' and a useful excuse to change the situation.

 

It is human nature to see a scapegoat; some underlying reason other than one's own inability to cope, as the reason for a decision that has been made.  I am not a Psychologist but I have a feeling that the family simply was unable to cope with all this.  

 

According to what has been reported, they have been dealing with the illness for 12 years.  There is a cost both in money and huge stress that at times becomes unbearable. That is when the scapegoating takes place and later the guilt will be overwhelming.

 

I would also add that while your  position on pointing out  hokem when it exists,  makes perfect sense ,I do  not believe this situation rises to that.  

 

You have to walk in their shoes to fully understand the dynamics  of the situation.

 

No one questions your sympathy but it is the psychological wear and tear that drives this  situation that is very difficult to comprehend.

[Letseng]

20 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

The family has said that Thai financial requirements - notably having to have 800,000 baht kept in the bank for their mother - had forced them to seek care in Manila. 

 

   No Thai requirement whatsoever had forced them to seek care in Manila. Nobody has forced them to do so. 

I don't understand why mother couldn't be their dependant but had to be on a retirement ext. My friends mother is and she has no issue. Maybe there is more than the eye can see to this story.

[terje johnsen]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Why would you assume her pension was at least 65K? Based on what evidence? The average US social security check is about 45K. 

in europe the pensions is around 75-85k and here in norway its 90k if you never have worked in your life. the americans allways say its better over there so i asume if this old lady have worked she have a pension above 65k. i think there is more to this story that is untold.why thaivisa not interview imigrasion offisials about this to then i think the story have another side to it.

[donnacha]

11 minutes ago, rexall said:

Imm cannot win the optics game of appearing to kick out a 77 year old Alzheimer's sufferer!   Which is ironic considering the over-concern with "face" in Thai and other Asian cultures, doncha think?

That is clearly the hope here, that public opinion can be whipped up into a frenzy against the government, but it simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

Their problem here is the cost of Alzheimer's care, which is being privately purchased. It has nothing to do with the government.

The government have given her entry to their country on a retirement visa. She is welcome to stay, she merely has to meet the standard requirement to have a reasonable amount of money set aside for emergencies. Given her age and condition, she is actually more likely to need that emergency fund than most other retirees.

There is zero chance that this attempt to spark a social media backlash will gain momentum. They simply don't have a case that stands up. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, terje johnsen said:

in europe the pensions is around 75-85k and here in norway its 90k if you never have worked in your life. the americans allways say its better over there so i asume if this old lady have worked she have a pension above 65k. i think there is more to this story that is untold.why thaivisa not interview imigrasion offisials about this to then i think the story have another side to it.

Your assumption is not based on evidence. You clearly don't understand the U.S. system. As I said and you can easily verify the average U.S. social security check is about 45K per month. Many under, many over, but a significant majority will be less than 65K. Your mentions of non-U.S. nations irrelevant to the situation in the U.S.