New PM to be nominated on Wednesday

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

This is exactly the kind of language autocrats use. What a paradoxical thing for a so called democrat to say. 

You appear to be under the impression that one man's opinion is as good as another's.It's not.Some opinions are valuable:others are worthless.

 

The fellow in question is perfectly entitled to give his opinion.It is equally in order to ignore him.

 

You also need to think a bit harder about what democracy means.

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

Do you really believe that other countries in the region - Singapore, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, China, etc - really are in any way democracies? 

 

They are all despotisms. Talk out of line and you get squashed. 

You really should get the political systems right. Laos, Vietnam and China are socialist countries. Singapore and Cambodia democracy are not perfect neither are most democracies but they allowed the people to decide after their term is up. None stage coups nor tear up the constitution consistently like Thailand. By the way, debating the topic with whataboutism is a waste of time. 

[dbrenn]

50 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

You really should get the political systems right. Laos, Vietnam and China are socialist countries. Singapore and Cambodia democracy are not perfect neither are most democracies but they allowed the people to decide after their term is up. None stage coups nor tear up the constitution consistently like Thailand. By the way, debating the topic with whataboutism is a waste of time. 

You're pulling my leg. Cambodia a democracy, so long as Hun Sen rules.

 

I used the word "despotism" to describe these places you call democracies - elections are held for the sake of appearances in some of them, just like Thailand really, but you can't call them democracies and keep a straight face.

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

1 hour ago, yellowboat said:

 

We are not talking about negatives.  We are talking about right and wrong.  Negatives are things like bad Bangkok traffic that will never go away.  Wrongs are curtailing freedoms, armed men holding a country hostage. 

 

Westerners who side with coup leaders are betraying those who made western civilization great: John Locke, Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson.....   

 

My life has been absolutely beautiful and amazing.  Done things only a few expatriates get to do.  Thanks for asking.    

Well I'm glad you've enjoyed your life, and if you read my posts again you'll note that I'm not denying that the western system of democracy was great once. It's just that it isn't great anymore - far from it.

 

Plato's Republic very eloquently describes how democracies evolve, and inevitably degenerate into tyrannies - something that is happening at home and so few people realise it. So, back to my point: how can we lecture Thailand on democracy, and what makes the status quo a bad thing, when change in our own societies is so degenerate?

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

You appear to be under the impression that one man's opinion is as good as another's.It's not.Some opinions are valuable:others are worthless.

There's something very North Korean about the reflexive shutting down of debate with ad hominem and insults (troll, ignoramus, to be ignored), rather then engaging in articulate and thoughtful discourse, don't you think?

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

There's something very North Korean about the reflexive shutting down of debate with ad hominem and insults (troll, ignoramus, to be ignored), rather then engaging in articulate and thoughtful discourse, don't you think?

It's not possible to have a rational discussion with either a troll or an ignoramus.If you believe that the opinions of idiots should be given a respectful hearing, that's your choice.I have never suggested they should not be allowed to express their views - so my position is hardly North Korean.

[Xonax]

On 5/31/2019 at 8:23 PM, steven100 said:

I believe Khun Prayut Chan O Cha is the best choice for the role and to his credit continue to develop Thailand with more projects, more infrustructure and more exports which will help boost the Thai economy.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do but hey .... look on the bright side .... you can go to the Philippines or Laos or Cambodia if you fancy them. Why stay here and moan and groan.  lol

Just try to imagine how Thailand would have been today without the coup!

[dbrenn]

22 minutes ago, Xonax said:

Just try to imagine how Thailand would have been today without the coup!

Now there's an interesting thought. 

[dbrenn]

44 minutes ago, jayboy said:

It's not possible to have a rational discussion with either a troll or an ignoramus.If you believe that the opinions of idiots should be given a respectful hearing, that's your choice.I have never suggested they should not be allowed to express their views - so my position is hardly North Korean.

I get you. It takes less intellectual firepower to insult those you disagree with, rather than engage in a discussion that you may well struggle to keep up with.

[jayboy]

I get you. It takes less intellectual firepower to insult those you disagree with, rather than engage in a discussion that you may well struggle to keep up with.

I hope you enjoyed getting that off your chest, though with respect it is a slightly sixth form debate society point.As to intellectual firepower - to use your expression - our respective contributions are on the record.No doubt others will draw their own conclusions.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dbrenn]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I hope you enjoyed getting that off your chest, though with respect it is a slightly sixth form debate society point.As to intellectual firepower - to use your expression - our respective contributions are on the record.No doubt others will draw their own conclusions.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Well it's a shame that you can't engage in an intelligent and articulate discussion, while looking to others to bail you out.

 

Insulting people who don't share your opinions is something that even small children can do. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Xonax said:

Just try to imagine how Thailand would have been today without the coup!

Yep, thousands of tonnes of extra rice rotting in storage, dodgy sales of overpriced rice, graft and corruption rampant fueled by a camel trader allowed back in town with all sins pardoned, pulling strings for the benefit of himself, family, mates, gardener driver, and housekeeper. 

 

The current position is hopeless and looks like staying that way for sometime, but probably streets ahead of what it would have been without the coup. 

 

[spidermike007]

The very worst selection for the health and long term well being of the nation will be selected. The one who has devoted the last five years to protecting the super wealthy, the army, those in power, corrupt cops, corrupt mayors and governors and ministers, and slave traders, traffickers, operators of illegal fishing vessels and the like. And in the process, never, ever looking out for the common Thai. 

[4MyEgo]

ummm

[4MyEgo]

22 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Once great and wealthy civilisations have been laid to waste and bankrupted by their own citizenry - all in the name of change. 

And there I was thinking it was all because of the world financial crisis of 2007 which was created by the banks and governments doing whatever they wanted too, well I have learned a valuable lesson today, I will blame the citizenry from now on... ????

 

[dbrenn]

13 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

And there I was thinking it was all because of the world financial crisis of 2007 which was created by the banks and governments doing whatever they wanted too, well I have learned a valuable lesson today, I will blame the citizenry from now on... ????

 

And so you should, because it was the citizenry who elected (and re-elected, and tolerated, and trusted) politicians who laid the foundation of the financial crisis, via lax regulation and vested interest.

 

The citizenry have to shoulder a share of responsibility too, for being the consumers of endless credit that they had no way of paying off.

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[jayboy]

39 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Well it's a shame that you can't engage in an intelligent and articulate discussion, while looking to others to bail you out.

 

Insulting people who don't share your opinions is something that even small children can do. 

You're going round in circles.I have already told you my opinion that's it's pointless engaging with people who are ignoramuses or trolls. If you enjoy wallowing in that bog, that's your prerogative.

 

That's completely different from not engaging with those who hold different opinions, and are able to articulate them. I welcome and enjoy this, and am happy to admit when I'm wrong.There were several such excellent opponents of mine on this forum though they have gone rather quiet (understandably) in the last year or so.With respect you are not in their league.

 

Incidentally I don't want or need others to bail me out.Nor am I interested in burnishing my record on an anonymous internet forum.You made some slightly puerile remarks about "intellectual firepower". I simply referred to the record on this forum.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

8 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

And so you should, because it was the citizenry who elected (and re-elected, and tolerated, and trusted) politicians who laid the foundation of the financial crisis, via lax regulation and vested interest.

 

The citizenry have to shoulder a share of responsibility too, for being the consumers of endless credit that they had no way of paying off.

Oh I see, so it was the citizenry, not the elected or re-elected and trusted politicians that should have tightened up the policies or regulations before the 2007 world financial crisis.

 

Wasn't there some guy (name eludes me atm) that is going to run for the next Presidency who said, what are the citizens going to do once the governments are in, they can't do anything until the next election, so there goes your theory on blaming the citizenry in my opinion.  

[dbrenn]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

You're going round in circles.I have already told you my opinion that's it's pointless engaging with people who are ignoramuses or trolls. If you enjoy wallowing in that bog, that's your prerogative.

 

That's completely different from not engaging with those who hold different opinions, and are able to articulate them. I welcome and enjoy this, and am happy to admit when I'm wrong.There were several such excellent opponents of mine on this forum though they have gone rather quiet (understandably) in the last year or so.With respect you are not in their league.

 

Incidentally I don't want or need others to bail me out.Nor am I interested in burnishing my record on an anonymous internet forum.You made some slightly puerile remarks about "intellectual firepower". I simply referred to the record on this forum.

 

 

If you aren't interested in burnishing your record in an anonymous Internet forum, then why on earth do you bother posting here under an anonymous name? Rather a paradox, don't you think?

 

So far the only point you seem to have made is that yellow shirts now agree with you and want your version of democracy, and realise the error of their ways. Thailand's conservatism runs much deeper than that, and is for the foreseeable future an immovable object backed up by an unstoppable force.

 

We've had coups, riots, tanks rolling down the streets, people getting killed. My vote is for peace, even if it does wear a green uniform.

[dbrenn]

3 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Oh I see, so it was the citizenry, not the elected or re-elected and trusted politicians that should have tightened up the policies or regulations before the 2007 world financial crisis.

 

Wasn't there some guy (name eludes me atm) that is going to run for the next Presidency who said, what are the citizens going to do once the governments are in, they can't do anything until the next election, so there goes your theory on blaming the citizenry in my opinion.  

There was the great depression in the 1930's. Also black Wednesday in 1992. The common denominators were slack regulation and greed - on both sides. 

 

Someone could stand for election on a manifesto of tighter financial control, but it never happens because they'd never get elected. Meanwhile, the politicians that are elected bend over backwards for their banker friends.

 

Why is that?

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

There was the great depression in the 1930's. Also black Wednesday in 1992. The common denominators were slack regulation and greed - on both sides. 

 

Someone could stand for election on a manifesto of tighter financial control, but it never happens because they'd never get elected. Meanwhile, the politicians that are elected bend over backwards for their banker friends.

 

Why is that?

[Eric Loh]

Let let’s hope that the Wednesday event will be telecast live and transparent so the people can see who will vote for Prayut. The senators are under intense public pressure not to vote as a bloc for Prayut. The selection method should be open and not a secret ballot. The people has the right to know the selection method and procedure. 

[jayboy]

39 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

If you aren't interested in burnishing your record in an anonymous Internet forum, then why on earth do you bother posting here under an anonymous name? Rather a paradox, don't you think?

 

So far the only point you seem to have made is that yellow shirts now agree with you and want your version of democracy, and realise the error of their ways. Thailand's conservatism runs much deeper than that, and is for the foreseeable future an immovable object backed up by an unstoppable force.

 

We've had coups, riots, tanks rolling down the streets, people getting killed. My vote is for peace, even if it does wear a green uniform.

I don't understand your first paragraph which is mostly gobblededook.If you are asking why I'm anonymous, that is because In Thailand it makes sense for foreigners interested in politics to avoid the public gaze.

 

Your second paragraph contains some invented version of my views.I do agree however that the old order (and much of the urban middle class) is deeply conservative.However that is not "Thailand" - far from it.

 

Your third paragraph gives the game away.You will tolerate brutality, corruption, military coups,suppression of civil rights, assassinations etc etc as long as you have "peace".

 

 

[yellowboat]

4 hours ago, dbrenn said:

Well I'm glad you've enjoyed your life, and if you read my posts again you'll note that I'm not denying that the western system of democracy was great once. It's just that it isn't great anymore - far from it.

 

Plato's Republic very eloquently describes how democracies evolve, and inevitably degenerate into tyrannies - something that is happening at home and so few people realise it. So, back to my point: how can we lecture Thailand on democracy, and what makes the status quo a bad thing, when change in our own societies is so degenerate?

 

So a coup should be tolerated because it is part of a natural cycle ? 

 

Lived in Taiwan for more than 10 years.  Was first there when it was not too much different than the mainland.  Today, it is great example of representative government.  

[dbrenn]

47 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I do agree however that the old order (and much of the urban middle class) is deeply conservative.However that is not "Thailand" - far from it.

Hurrah! There's something we agree on. 

 

Like it, or lump it, the conservatives are in total control, and this isn't going to change. 

 

As for the rest, most country folk want money and have scant regard for the intricacies of party politics. They believe all the PR that converting Thailand into a western style democracy will lead to a magical rain of free cash, which of course is never going to happen. 

 

I applaud the changes that adversarial politics has achieved this far - healthcare, the minimum wage and all that - but the fact remains that the ultra conservatives are in total control of the State, and always have been. We've seen the chaos that fighting this reality has wrought on Thailand over many years, and we've seen through various coups and riots how futile it is to oppose this reality. If you think that your liberal gestures can make a jot of difference, no matter how hard you try think again, because Thailand is essentially an ultra conservative country that has allowed alternative politics short periods off the leash from time to time, for the sake of appearances.

 

I prefer peace.

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

11 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

So a coup should be tolerated because it is part of a natural cycle ? 

 

Lived in Taiwan for more than 10 years.  Was first there when it was not too much different than the mainland.  Today, it is great example of representative government.  

The way that China is flexing its muscles, be careful not to speak too soon ????

Edited June 2, 2019 by dbrenn

[jackj]

40 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

They believe that converting Thailand into a western style democracy will lead to a magical rain of free cash, which of course is never going to happen. 

My country has a smaller budget deficit than thailand despite the fact

that pays pensions to all older people , all parents financial allowances

for children,  free healthcare and is not particularly rich.

so where is better and more transparent management ???
In a democracy or in a "Great Southeast Asian model" ???

Edited June 2, 2019 by jackj

[oldrunner]

oooooocHA

[yellowboat]

3 hours ago, dbrenn said:

The way that China is flexing its muscles, be careful not to speak too soon ????

You can talk them into acquiescing as you have done.

[chama]

On 5/31/2019 at 8:39 AM, gunderhill said:

Gosh wonder "who"  it  will be??? nope I havent got a  clue, cant imagine.

Are  the black armbands for the death of democracy??

The only surprise is how long it took him to decide to end the circus. The outcome was never in doubt. Watching all of the underhanded methods employed to capture votes was a surprise. Surprise because he decided he needed to use them rather than just claiming the position and a surprise because more effort wasn't put into making them harder to see.