Combination method for retirement extensions

[CALSinCM]

We all know about the new restrictions on the 800k in the bank option of retirement extensions.

 

However, what are the new restrictions on the combination method if any and exactly how does it work?

 

For instance let's say you have 40k of social security income from the social security admin hitting your Thai bank account every month for a full year.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but that should total 480K in income and to use the combination method you would need to show 320k in the bank?  Is that how it works.

If it is, is their any restrictions or conditions on that 320k in  the bank.  Does it need to season for 2 or 3 months?  Can you take it out after your extension or does it need to stay in the account? 

Also, how is the income calculated.  In a perfect world with no flucuation in the exchange rate you would have 40k baht every month.  But it does not work that way.  One month 40K, another month 39.9K, maybe the next month 41K.  Do they take an average?  The highest?  The lowest?  Who decided the calculation?

Looking for clarification. 

[ubonjoe]

The new rules are vague on the requirements for the combination option as far as how much you have the keep in the bank after 3 months for the amount you had in the bank. Some offices have said half of the money has to stay in the bank until you top up your account for the next extension. 

The money must be in the bank for 2 months before you apply for the extension. Which in your example would be at least 320k baht to reach a total of 800k baht and then for 3 months after you apply.

Since your transferred income would be in baht their would be no exchange rate factor. You and immigration would use the total of 12 months of transfers to determine your annual income to determine the minimum you need to have in the bank.

[owl sees all]

Picked up my 90 day report from my agent last week. I've got 6 months til the next ext'. I asked her what I need to do NOW to ensure a smooth transition to the next.

 

I had thought about the combo method as under the present circumstances I fall short of monthly income.

 

She replied; "nothing, everything same." 

[SEtonal]

You would need to ask your local Immigration Office.  Each Office handles the combination method differently.

[arithai12]

40 minutes ago, CALSinCM said:

Also, how is the income calculated.  In a perfect world with no flucuation in the exchange rate you would have 40k baht every month.  But it does not work that way.  One month 40K, another month 39.9K, maybe the next month 41K.  Do they take an average?  The highest?  The lowest?  Who decided the calculation?

I have no direct experience, but the obvious thing that comes to mind is that you would need to get a letter from the bank, and that letter will state how much you transferred (in baht of course) over the whole period.

Therefore, given the possible fluctuations that you cite, I would leave enough deposit to cover contingencies. In your example, well upward of 320k.

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

Therefore, given the possible fluctuations that you cite, I would leave enough deposit to cover contingencies. In your example, well upward of 320k.

He could total up 9 or 10 months of transfers he has already done and then add a little more to the 320k baht to allow for the last 2 or 3 being less to meet the 2 months in the bank requirement.

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

Picked up my 90 day report from my agent last week. I've got 6 months til the next ext'. I asked her what I need to do NOW to ensure a smooth transition to the next.

 

I had thought about the combo method as under the present circumstances I fall short of monthly income.

 

She replied; "nothing, everything same." 

What office?

[Tanoshi]

 

4 hours ago, CALSinCM said:

For instance let's say you have 40k of social security income from the social security admin hitting your Thai bank account every month for a full year.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but that should total 480K in income and to use the combination method you would need to show 320k in the bank?  Is that how it works.

If it is, is their any restrictions or conditions on that 320k in  the bank.  Does it need to season for 2 or 3 months?  Can you take it out after your extension or does it need to stay in the account? 

Immigration offices have different interpretations of the requirements to meet for the combo method, due to the ambiguously written order.

Quote

2.22 Retirement. Police Order 35/2561

 

(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than no less than THB 65,000, OR

(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can then withdraw the fund 3 month after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000, OR

(5) Must have annual earnings and funds deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4).

It's the reference in (5) to the same withdrawal conditions as stated in (4) that cause the confusion.

 

As there is no minimum amount specified for funds under the Combo method, does (5) mean;

1. Half of the funds portion can be withdrawn 3 months after being granted permission, topped up 2 months prior to next extension, OR

2. The balance after withdrawal must be no less than 400K for the remainder, which would suggest a minimum of 400K funds deposit in the first place, OR

3. Both, OR

4. Something else as they interpret it.

 

4 hours ago, CALSinCM said:

Also, how is the income calculated.  In a perfect world with no flucuation in the exchange rate you would have 40k baht every month.  But it does not work that way.  One month 40K, another month 39.9K, maybe the next month 41K.  Do they take an average?  The highest?  The lowest?  Who decided the calculation?

Depending on the funds you have on deposit, then the income part would make up the difference to total 800K for the year.

Using the figures you quoted of an income of 40K per month and funds deposit of 320K, in my personal opinion if your income fell below 40K for one month due to exchange rates then your next extension would be refused. Averages, are not allowable for retirement extensions.

Remember these figures are the minimum.

 

If you have concerns your income transfers may fall below the 40K for a month or two, then you should deposit slightly more funds to compensate for the variations in exchange rates.

i.e. 350K funds deposit would only require monthly transfers of 37,500 per month.

Immigration will not in my opinion want to waste time working out differences.

They'll look at the amount of funds on deposit and divide the remaining difference to meet the 800K by 12, then scroll down the monthly transfers to ensure each monthly transfer is above the minimum required.

 

Only your own Immigration office can advise on their interpretation and the method of proof for funds and income totalling 800K for the year that they are applying. It's not clear to anyone.

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Tanoshi

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Using the figures you quoted of an income of 40K per month and funds deposit of 320K, in my personal opinion if your income fell below 40K for one month due to exchange rates then your next extension would be refused. Averages, are not allowable for retirement extensions.

I don't agree with you. For the combination option there is no minimum income requirement. Only that 12 months of income is required. There is nothing to imply it has to be same amount every month. Of course it could not be 20k baht one month and 45k baht the next baht for example. Income can always vary due to exchange rate changes.

A average is not allowed for the income option. For the combination option it is a total of annual income so averaging would not be needed.

[soisanuk]

If I read (5) correctly, it would indicate that the money in the bank portion could not be below 400k at anytime -- but, as mentioned, the requirements are not clear.  However, it is possible the Immigration Office may interpret it that way -- best to find out what the Immigration Office where you will apply requires if you plan to use the combo method.

 

[Tanoshi]

19 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't agree with you. For the combination option there is no minimum income requirement. Only that 12 months of income is required. There is nothing to imply it has to be same amount every month. Of course it could not be 20k baht one month and 45k baht the next baht for example. Income can always vary due to exchange rate changes.

A average is not allowed for the income option. For the combination option it is a total of annual income so averaging would not be needed.

On the face of the statement I'd agree with you and maybe a point to argue with the IO.

Provided funds and deposits add to 800,000 there shouldn't be an issue.

In practice though, I believe they'll deduct the funds portion, divide the difference by 12 to find the monthly average, then look for minimum transfers of that figure.

 

I'm sure as more apply for extensions based on combinations methods, we'll hear various methods adopted by different IO's for the calculation of the 800K.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, soisanuk said:

If I read (5) correctly, it would indicate that the money in the bank portion could not be below 400k at anytime -- but, as mentioned, the requirements are not clear.  However, it is possible the Immigration Office may interpret it that way -- best to find out what the Immigration Office where you will apply requires if you plan to use the combo method.

 

From reports I believe that is the stance taken by some IO's.

However nothing in section 5 refers to a minimum of funds and the only reference to the same conditions as in (4) are for the withdrawal of funds.

 

My IO do not insist on a minimum of 400K funds, that amount can be variable.

The same seasonings periods apply, but you can withdraw half the funds in-between.

Section 5 is so open to various interpretations and permutations that only your own IO can advise on what is acceptable to them. No one answers fits all for the combo, whereas  the funds only or income only methods are clear.

[Jingthing]

Yes you need local guidance. But even with that the story you're given one day may be totally different on the day of your application. Thus I don't consider it a reliable enough option if you can possibly plan for a more consistently predictable method.

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[Thailand]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Yes you need local guidance. But even with that the story you're given one day may be totally different on the day of your application. Thus I don't consider it a reliable enough option if you can possibly plan for a more consistently predictable method.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Perhaps the new head of immigration is currently working on having complete consistency from each office and all officers without any confusion on the part of immigration or clients. 

????

[Jingthing]

Perhaps the new head of immigration is currently working on having complete consistency from each office and all officers without any confusion on the part of immigration or clients. 
[emoji3]

When pigs become opera singers.

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[NoshowJones]

"Combination method for retirement extensions"

I'm afraid you will not get a definite answer to this or most other things to do with immigration, all you can really do is go to your local IO and ask what their interpretation of the rules are, and then just hope that the next time to go you are not told something else.

[NoshowJones]

On 6/2/2019 at 9:15 AM, owl sees all said:

Picked up my 90 day report from my agent last week. I've got 6 months til the next ext'. I asked her what I need to do NOW to ensure a smooth transition to the next.

 

I had thought about the combo method as under the present circumstances I fall short of monthly income.

 

She replied; "nothing, everything same." 

I'm a bit confused by this, though maybe I'm missing something, if you, or your agent on your behalf, waits until 6 months till the next extension, just how many 90 days are in 6 months?

[Suradit69]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes you need local guidance. But even with that the story you're given one day may be totally different on the day of your application. Thus I don't consider it a reliable enough option if you can possibly plan for a more consistently predictable method.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

My thought exactly. You really need to start implementing whatever you plan to do starting months, possibly a full year before your next extension of stay if using anything that relies in part on monthly income.  Any information You could get now could be totally out of date when you go in to apply and it could be too late then to remedy your compliance with the reinterpreted rules.

[Mikeasq60]

I'm an American married to a Thai. Thailand needs to decide quickly what their going to do about immigration. Money can be spent other Asian countries that encourages westerners retiring in their countries. If you're a Westerner you cant own property what crap is that 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Yes you need local guidance. But even with that the story you're given one day may be totally different on the day of your application. Thus I don't consider it a reliable enough option if you can possibly plan for a more consistently predictable method.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I hear you, the problem with the income method is the over-rated strength of the baht and the every decreasing exchange rates affecting major currencies over the last 2 years amounting to a decrease in income of between 10% - 25% for many expats.

Even annual increase in pension payments don't compensation for such exchange fluctuations.

What was safe last year, teeters on the borderline for many this year.

A colleague who obtained an Embassy letter in December which converted to 805,000 in that month, now converts to less than 780,000, so of no use.

 

To save 800K, currently a fixed amount, would take years.

 

Over the coming 12 months, especially with the withdrawal of Embassy Income letters for the majority of expats, I believe we'll see more expats on retirement extensions but married, move to marriage extensions and others not married move to the combination method.

Ideally our troubles would be few if we all had 800K, unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.

[Tanoshi]

38 minutes ago, Mikeasq60 said:

I'm an American married to a Thai. Thailand needs to decide quickly what their going to do about immigration. Money can be spent other Asian countries that encourages westerners retiring in their countries. If you're a Westerner you cant own property what crap is that 

You can own property, you cannot own land.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

My thought exactly. You really need to start implementing whatever you plan to do starting months, possibly a full year before your next extension of stay if using anything that relies in part on monthly income.  Any information You could get now could be totally out of date when you go in to apply and it could be too late then to remedy your compliance with the reinterpreted rules.

One hopes any further changes would be subject to 'leniency' as with this year.     

 

Discussing the issue locally, most expats agreed the recent amendments to Police orders wasn't the main problem, it was the current exchange rates causing the biggest headache. 

[Jingthing]

I'm going to go even further into some controversy about the COMBO method.

I've noticed over the months that some members (without naming names) have been actively promoting that people plan for using the combo method even though it is clearly both unclear and problematic. The gist of that argument seems to be -- look, the police orders says it's still an option, go ahead and plan to apply that way, no worries, you can always point to the police order if there is pushback.

I think that is horrible advice!

All expats need to look after their own self interests first with immigration. Proving a point (but the police order says combo is OK!) is not the point if it puts your stay in Thailand at risk. 

It is indeed in the police order but that police order is so incredibly vague that an officer can justifiably interpret it in many different ways.

Why would anyone willingly take such a risk?
Now I understand if that's the only method you can manage (not mentioning agents here) then you would try the combo method.

But otherwise, why would you?

 

[merlen10002]

Did my extension of stay for retirement by combination at Jomtien a few weeks ago, you must have a statement from your bank for each month income ,( in my case it was 13 payments each 28 days,) and a letter from your bank for the income, you must also have a letter for the money in the bank ,, so two letters from the bank, the money in the bank and the income must add up to 800,000 Baht or more for 12 months, you must have the money in the bank for two months for the first extension, three months for every other extension, you do not  have to leave any money in the bank after you receive the extension. This is at Jomtien only may be different at other IO . = Income 481,000 Baht + in Bank 320,000 Baht = 801,000 Baht .  if anyone has income each month going into the bank and can have the bank print out a statement this is the best way to do the retirement extension I think. just my opinion.  

[Thailand]

24 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

One hopes any further changes would be subject to 'leniency' as with this year.     

 

Discussing the issue locally, most expats agreed the recent amendments to Police orders wasn't the main problem, it was the current exchange rates causing the biggest headache. 

And grandfathering, for longstayers , my 17th extension of stay in a couple of months!  ????

[merlen10002]

I have been doing COMBO method for over ten years now with no problem, and have a printed letter from Jomtien saying that the COMBO method is legal, and all other methods that are legal ,  Ask your local IO.     

[Thailand]

12 minutes ago, merlen10002 said:

Did my extension of stay for retirement by combination at Jomtien a few weeks ago, you must have a statement from your bank for each month income ,( in my case it was 13 payments each 28 days,) and a letter from your bank for the income, you must also have a letter for the money in the bank ,, so two letters from the bank, the money in the bank and the income must add up to 800,000 Baht or more for 12 months, you must have the money in the bank for two months for the first extension, three months for every other extension, you do not  have to leave any money in the bank after you receive the extension. This is at Jomtien only may be different at other IO . = Income 481,000 Baht + in Bank 320,000 Baht = 801,000 Baht .  if anyone has income each month going into the bank and can have the bank print out a statement this is the best way to do the retirement extension I think. just my opinion.  

Now that report is really interesting compared to what we are hearing (rumours maybe) in Chiang Mai.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, merlen10002 said:

I have been doing COMBO method for over ten years now with no problem, and have a printed letter from Jomtien saying that the COMBO method is legal, and all other methods that are legal ,  Ask your local IO.     

Yes but the unclear and problematic thing about the combo method started with the new rules. Especially if you don't have an embassy letter for income but also for the banked part where bank method seasoning pre AND post is supposed to apply to the bank portion, but the specific mechanics of that are not even mentioned in the police order.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Thailand said:

Now that report is really interesting compared to what we are hearing (rumours maybe) in Chiang Mai.

Each office is it's own universe.

[Thailand]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Each office is it's own universe.

Maybe a few weeks by the sea in a couple of months! ????