Is there a technical or legal reason that Thai Immigration won't accept electronic bank records from other countries (specifically the US, im my case)?

[pizzachang]

In the USA, electronic bank records are routinely used in courts of law, in fact many banks don't even send these records by mail but have switched to electronic data.  So, my questions pertains to the reason or non-reason that my bank statement from the US wasn't acceptable to Immigration - the statement clearly shows the origin and disposition of my funds, even to the serial numbered ATM in Thailand, where funds are withdrawn.  I realize that "in a Thai bank" is a separate issue but regardless of that, the actual information proving the origin is the same no matter what bank issues a statement.   I've enclosed a PNG of the pertinent information that clearly shows the origin and disposition of deposits from my pensions. Comments are welcome.

[ubonjoe]

What are you wanting to prove with those statements showing a ATM withdrawal?

If wanting to prove your income for a extension of stay application the rules state you must show transfers from abroad into a Thai bank. 

 

[mtls2005]

Obviously deciphering complex financial documents, fully-laden with acronyms, in a foreign language presents many challenges.

 

I'm from the U.S. and I may be able to partly decipher that paper trail, but maybe not. (State of Arkansas?)

 

Putting aside the ability to photoshop such a document, I'm not sure we should expect a first-line IO to be a forensic accountant, capable of reading and understanding a multitude of foreign languages?

 

Not sure what your real question is, but now you need a Thai bank to certify a lump sum, or qualifying foreign transfers in a Thai bank account in your name.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by mtls2005

[Gumballl]

14 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Obviously deciphering complex financial documents, fully-laden with acronyms, in a foreign language presents many challenges.

 

I'm from the U.S. and I may be able to partly decipher that paper trail, but maybe not. (State of Arkansas?)

 

Putting aside the ability to photoshop such a document, I'm not sure we should expect a first-line IO to be a forensic accountant, capable of reading and understanding a multitude of foreign languages?

 

Not sure what your real question is, but now you need a Thai bank to certify a lump sum, or qualifying foreign transfers in a Thai bank account in your name.

 

 

 

 

AK? I was thinking along the lines of Alaska.

 

Either way, anyone with a computer could easily fabricate the gibberish that the OP posted; hence why it is unacceptable.

[mtls2005]

17 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

AK? I was thinking along the lines of Alaska.

 

There you go.

 

Even I failed the 50-state USPS two-letter state code test.

 

 

[pizzachang]

22 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

 

Either way, anyone with a computer could easily fabricate the gibberish that the OP posted; hence why it is unacceptable.

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information. This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension. As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA) If a non 0 person wants to hide income source because of illegal activity, couldn't they just pay "Speedi Visa" to provide cover? As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference. If the difference is the lack of English language skill, I can understand that as well. It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable by means other than having a "Thai bank" foreign deposit code. The funds withdrawn from an ATM are electronically recorded as to the origin of the funds.

[Gumballl]

6 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information. This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension. As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA) If a non 0 person wants to hide income source because of illegal activity, couldn't they just pay "Speedi Visa" to provide cover? As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference. If the difference is the lack of English language skill, I can understand that as well. It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable by means other than having a "Thai bank" foreign deposit code. The funds withdrawn from an ATM are electronically recorded as to the origin of the funds.

Take my input to the extreme. Any document that you present to an IO in Thailand can be fabricated, even those that are with a letterhead from some supposedly reputable US agency/department. Same can be said for US bank letterheads, and to repeat myself, ATM receipts.

 

P.S. I am not sure which "boat" you are in, whether single or married to a Thai, but I recommend that you deposit the required yearly amount all at once into a Thai bank, and while singing a tune, think of it as the admission fee to Disney Land. Don't ever withdraw this money; you'll need it the next year.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Gumballl

[mtls2005]

21 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information.

Why does anybody do anything? Because they need to, and they can.

 

21 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension.

Yet you mention these. Again, IOs may not be able to read, understand, interpret these documents.  I feel confident saying I would not be able to understand a Thai pension statement.

 

21 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA)

We're not in KS anymore. (Did I get that one right?)

 

21 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable

Seems like a strange assumption? Origin isn't so much an issue, other than to say it must be from outside of Thailand, but rather the destination, and amount of course.

 

 

Forms, documents, etc which we may understand, if only as they apply to our own particular situation, will not be understood by an IO.

 

Maybe just let it go?

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by mtls2005

[blackcab]

15 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference.

 

It's not for immigration to verify documents or electronic copies of documents from every country in the world, across multiple time zones and in multiple languages. As the applicant it is for you to provide the required proof of funds in a Thai bank. Your documents might be easy to verify, however there is one rule for everyone including you.

 

Immigration can check the authenticity of a Thai bank statement with one phone call, within minutes, and they can be sure the answer they receive from the bank is correct.

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information. This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension. As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA) If a non 0 person wants to hide income source because of illegal activity, couldn't they just pay "Speedi Visa" to provide cover? As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference. If the difference is the lack of English language skill, I can understand that as well. It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable by means other than having a "Thai bank" foreign deposit code. The funds withdrawn from an ATM are electronically recorded as to the origin of the funds.

If it is that easy verifiable, why doesn't your embassy provide an income certification letter?

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

If it is that easy verifiable, why doesn't your embassy provide an income certification letter?

If is from the USA and can no longer get a income affidavit.

[mtls2005]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

If it is that easy verifiable, why doesn't your embassy provide an income certification letter?

#rimshot

[WalkingOrders]

My experience, is that Thai Immigration officials, buried under paperwork, dealing with everyday tedium, various angry idiots, trying to speak to people in a variety of broken Thai, and broken English, just dont like to look at paperwork they have never seen, and have to go scratch their heads and consult som manual  or call a supervisor. These folks dont even like to read Thai bank statements let alone foreign ones. Keep it simple  for them. Open a thai bank account. Maybe two. Personally, I think kasikorn is the best bank in the world.

[stevenl]

54 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

If is from the USA and can no longer get a income affidavit.

Yes, because they can't verify them.

[pizzachang]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

Origin isn't so much an issue, other than to say it must be from outside of Thailand, but rather the destination, and amount of course.

My point is origin = outside Thailand. destination ( disposition) = serial numbered ATM inside Thailand....amount is sufficient, otherwise why bother?  I have already proceeded with the new rule, so in 12 months, I'll have Thai "documentation" 

[jackdd]

59 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

My point is origin = outside Thailand. destination ( disposition) = serial numbered ATM inside Thailand....amount is sufficient, otherwise why bother?

Because printing such a statement by yourself is very easy and verifying that you didn't print such a statement by yourself is very difficult, maybe impossible because the bank in your home country won't cooperate if Thai immigration should have questions.

A Thai bank book is way more difficult to fake and because the bank is in Thailand the police could probably verify the data if they want to.

 

As stevenl correctly said already, your embassy said that they can't verify it. So if your embassy say they can't verify it (they could maybe some get information from an US bank, and they should have way more knowledge about US bank statements than Thai immigration), why would you expect that Thai immigration can?

Edited June 6, 2019 by jackdd

[Caldera]

Thai immigration officers, by all appearances, are barely literate when it comes to reading English. To expect them to be able to read (and verify as valid) electronic bank statements issued by foreign banks is asking a lot.

 

Also, as mentioned, there's probably no merit in being able to show ATM withdrawals from foreign bank accounts anyway.

[ThaiBunny]

Many years ago when passengers had to pay their departure tax in cash during check-in I was hugely entertained by the young American in the adjacent queue who could not understand why the check-in agent demanded Thai baht when he was offering US dollars. The OP's post seems to be along the same line of thought

[mtls2005]

2 hours ago, pizzachang said:

I have already proceeded with the new rule, so in 12 months, I'll have Thai "documentation" 

Oy vey.

 

You could have led with that spoiler alert.

 

 

[Thaidream]

4 hours ago, pizzachang said:

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information. This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension. As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA) If a non 0 person wants to hide income source because of illegal activity, couldn't they just pay "Speedi Visa" to provide cover? As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference. If the difference is the lack of English language skill, I can understand that as well. It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable by means other than having a "Thai bank" foreign deposit code. The funds withdrawn from an ATM are electronically recorded as to the origin of the funds.

The argument you have stated makes perfect sense.  In fact, years ago when I presented an Embassy Letter, I was asked to prove the amount I had stated was my income-

 

I showed  a Letter from Social Security and my Military pension Letter in which the amounts matched the Embassy Letter.

 

I also showed a copy of my US Bank statement- showing the direct deposits and the amounts. Figures matched.

 

The officer asked how I accessed the funds from Thailand and I showed 4 ATM cards from the US.

 

The Officer had no issue understanding any of the documents nor the bank statement. 

 

While  I suppose any document could be forged- I seriously doubt anyone could forge 4 ATM cards with the same imprints and numbers that match the bank statements .  I also had the ATM slips which matched the ATM cards and were also posted on the bank summary. He didn't need these.

 

Could Thai Immigration use these documents today-  They could and they would be as close to foolproof as necessary.

 

The reason they won't accept them is because as Ubon Joe stated-  The police order indicates the money has to be transferred to a Thai Bank Account.  However, if one can get an Embassy Letter- that is all that will be needed.

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

You do know that the Social Security letter is self-generated if you have an online account and can readily be edited before printing if you know how?

[mtls2005]

9 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The Officer had no issue understanding any of the documents nor the bank statement. 

Doubtful.

 

Just saying, how do you know what the officer "understood"? This was "years ago"? Just one time?

 

It was all mumbo-jumbo to them, and just because they nodding doesn't mean they understood. Suspect they just took the embassy affidavit as documentation and were maybe just being nice asking about the back up. Then you got overly effusive.

 

I used the U.S. Embassy affidavit ~ 5 years running, never once asked for back-up (even though I had it in hand). 

 

ATM cards or slips are hardly proof of income stated on an affidavit.

[pizzachang]

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The reason they won't accept them is because as Ubon Joe stated-  The police order indicates the money has to be transferred to a Thai Bank Account.  However, if one can get an Embassy Letter- that is all that will be needed.

Thanks for understanding my post and I agree 100% that the real reason is as you state. Has anyone actually asked the US Embassy or Consulate if they can verify a Social Security pension or a State pension?  The original affidavit forms did not ask or provide any way to verify sources of income, but official letters issued by Social Security, (I have one and it called: verification letter) and also one from my State pension that's similar, could serve as proof to the officers at the Consulate ( I assume this only) to issue an Embassy letter.

[pizzachang]

42 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

You do know that the Social Security letter is self-generated if you have an online account and can readily be edited before printing if you know how?

Almost everything is electronically generated - Social Security doesn't send checks by mail, except in special circumstances and even most US Banks would rather not waste the paper.

 

[pizzachang]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

Because printing such a statement by yourself is very easy and verifying that you didn't print such a statement by yourself is very difficult, maybe impossible because the bank in your home country won't cooperate if Thai immigration should have questions.

A Thai bank book is way more difficult to fake and because the bank is in Thailand the police could probably verify the data if they want to.

 

As stevenl correctly said already, your embassy said that they can't verify it. So if your embassy say they can't verify it (they could maybe some get information from an US bank, and they should have way more knowledge about US bank statements than Thai immigration), why would you expect that Thai immigration can?

Well yes and no...it's obvious that any person applying for an extension can take their laptop computer into immigration, open their banks home page, log -in and bring up all the account information, showing the origin (source) of their funds and their disposition to Thailand ATMs - verifying that the money did come from a foreign source, AND then show the same money deposited into a Thai account. This would be pretty hard to fake (IMO) and when we are discussing expat pensioners, it would hardly be worth the effort to even try and fake it.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, pizzachang said:

Well yes and no...it's obvious that any person applying for an extension can take their laptop computer into immigration, open their banks home page, log -in and bring up all the account information, showing the origin (source) of their funds and their disposition to Thailand ATMs - verifying that the money did come from a foreign source, AND then show the same money deposited into a Thai account. This would be pretty hard to fake (IMO) and when we are discussing expat pensioners, it would hardly be worth the effort to even try and fake it.

Why oh why are you asking Thai immigration does the job that your embassy is refusing to do?

[ParadiseLost]

An example of the only printed matter Thai Immigration wishes to see:

 

[OmarZaid]

they want to see a bank book and bank statement of DEPOSITS made -- signed by the BANK MANAGER

[mtls2005]

30 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Well yes and no...it's obvious that any person applying for an extension can take their laptop computer into immigration, open their banks home page, log -in and bring up all the account information, showing the origin (source) of their funds and their disposition to Thailand ATMs - verifying that the money did come from a foreign source, AND then show the same money deposited into a Thai account.

 

I think the Latin term for this would be clustericus fornicatii.

 

Chuckling picturing everyone huddled around your laptop. Classic. As if the language barrier and financial lingo would be understood better staring at a screen vs. paper. I'm guessing you're new here?

 

 

Seriously, why can't you just let this go? I mean, you already said you're using traditional documentation, perhaps bank certified qualifying foreign transfers, or the finely-aged lump sum method.

 

Respect for the pizza oven.

 

 

[connda]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

If wanting to prove your income for a extension of stay application the rules state you must show transfers from abroad into a Thai bank. 

 

I understand the frustration by many.  The rules, regulations, and banking restrictions tossed in the way of those who actually have pension income flowing to their own country - but who are unable to transfer it to Thailand in a facsimile that is accepted by Thai immigration. 
It all sound so, so simply.  "Just transfer the money."  Well, some people can and many people can not.  Example: SWIFT transfers are expensive and often need to be conducted in person at your bank.  ACH transfers are now a foregone conclusion and IAT transfers are a joke as virtually no bank supports them.  Use third party intermediaries but then the transfers don't show up as originating as a foreign bank transfer to a Thai bank.  
Maybe in the future, maybe.  But foreign governments seem to keep a thumb on average pensioners who make and want to transfer relatively small amounts while literally allowing large banks to facilitate large scale money laundering for the cost of a fine - and no executives go to jail  The laws are intentionally staked against small fry like us.
It's tough.  The options for affordable international transfers are limited, and the options for affordable international transfers that will be accepted by Thai Immigration are even more limited.  It's just a fact.  And it's a frustrating fact at that.