Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

[Bluespunk]

15 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Dates please.

Read

 

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[Loiner]

Read
 
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Articles

Tell

Us

When

They

Were

Published

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

They will make the choice for a hard border, firstly because it would be illegal under WTO rules not to have one, but more importantly because of these pesky things called consequences.

 

Let me give you a couple of exaggerated examples to illustrate those consequences

 

Firstly, imagine the country with the border was thailand not the UK. All the electrical equipment made and sold in Thailand could be shipped across the border to Eire and from there to any other EU country. This would quickly erode confidence in any electrical equipment sold in any country in the single market  and no other country would accept exports from there without checking it out first. 

 

Secondly Imagine   Eire decided to drop the excise duty on Irish whiskey to 50p a bottle . NI would be flooded with cheap Whiskey that had crossed the border and then so would the rest of the UK. Scotch Whisky sales would plummet.

 

So neither side can tolerate an open border when there is no agreement to common tariffs and standards and some supranational body to enforce there rules.         

Checks can be made at UK ports, and again at Europe mainland ports. These things along with technological developments would greatly limit the kind of (highly unlikely) activity you describe. 

Yes, some such activity might slip through the net as it does now. But when you weigh up those risks versus a hard border / return of the troubles, it's a no brainer that the EU/RoI will not put up a hard border. 

As for WTO rules, as long as both sides are taking reasonable steps to preserve the customs arrangements (as I have described), then the WTO folks would be satisfied. 

 

With some effort, some imagination and some cash, the EU / RoI will find a way to avoid putting in a hard border.  But they're not going to admit this while it's a great bargaining chip in Brexit negotiations. 

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Tell

Us

When

They

Were

Published

Ah, you know they will prove you wrong and are scared to face the truth. 

 

https://www.rte.ie/amp/972531/

 

https://amp.ft.com/content/73ac4a5c-d83f-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis

 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2019/2/18/18204269/brexit-irish-border-backstop-explained

 

Heres a snippet just for you

 

”At 6.25am on 24 June, 2016, an hour after it was clear that Britain had voted to leave the EU, a terse statement was circulated among press officers before being released to the outside world.  

The Irish Government, said the statement, "notes the outcome of the UK EU referendum this morning. The result clearly has very significant implications for Ireland…"

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Checks can be made at UK ports, and again at Europe mainland ports. These things along with technological developments would greatly limit the kind of (highly unlikely) activity you describe. 

Yes, some such activity might slip through the net as it does now. But when you weigh up those risks versus a hard border / return of the troubles, it's a no brainer that the EU/RoI will not put up a hard border. 

As for WTO rules, as long as both sides are taking reasonable steps to preserve the customs arrangements (as I have described), then the WTO folks would be satisfied. 

 

With some effort, some imagination and some cash, the EU / RoI will find a way to avoid putting in a hard border.  But they're not going to admit this while it's a great bargaining chip in Brexit negotiations. 

Making checks at UK ports (for goods transported between Northern Ireland and the UK Mainland) would be effectively placing a customer border between the UK and Northern Ireland. 

This exact suggestion of 'checks at UK ports' has been rejected by Unionists - Its a no go.

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Joinaman said:

Why

Please explain why this would happen ?

How would this effect the lives of the majority of the Irish, both North and South ?

or are you talking about the paramilitaries who would use any excuse to revert back to bombings and murders ?

Yes, the extreme Republicans who object to NI being part of the UK would use a hard border as an excuse to start trouble again. 

But I am arguing that nobody is going to install a hard border - so this will not be an issue. 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, the extreme Republicans who object to NI being part of the UK would use a hard border as an excuse to start trouble again. 

But I am arguing that nobody is going to install a hard border - so this will not be an issue. 

Nobody has come up with a workable solution to the border, so I'm not sure on what basis you can exclude a hard border.

[tebee]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Checks can be made at UK ports, and again at Europe mainland ports. These things along with technological developments would greatly limit the kind of (highly unlikely) activity you describe. 

Yes, some such activity might slip through the net as it does now. But when you weigh up those risks versus a hard border / return of the troubles, it's a no brainer that the EU/RoI will not put up a hard border. 

As for WTO rules, as long as both sides are taking reasonable steps to preserve the customs arrangements (as I have described), then the WTO folks would be satisfied. 

 

With some effort, some imagination and some cash, the EU / RoI will find a way to avoid putting in a hard border.  But they're not going to admit this while it's a great bargaining chip in Brexit negotiations. 

You can't check at either of those for political reasons - it's against single market rules to do so in the EU and the DUP would not allow it to happen between UK/NI

 

Now it doesn't matter what crosses the border as the same rules apply both sides - that is not the case post hard brexit.

 

[CG1 Blue]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nobody has come up with a workable solution to the border, so I'm not sure on what basis you can exclude a hard border.

That's because there has not been the political motivation to come up with a solution - not publicly anyway. I have no doubt Varadkar and his EU chums have a plan to avoid a hard border in a no deal scenario. 

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

You can't check at either of those for political reasons - it's against single market rules to do so in the EU and the DUP would not allow it to happen between UK/NI

 

Now it doesn't matter what crosses the border as the same rules apply both sides - that is not the case post hard brexit.

 

Rules can be amended if the need is great enough. 

[tebee]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

That's because there has not been the political motivation to come up with a solution - not publicly anyway. I have no doubt Varadkar and his EU chums have a plan to avoid a hard border in a no deal scenario. 

Is it not equally possible that it's because there is no solution that is compatible with a hard Brexit ?

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

NO counties in the world have only electronic customs.

 

Do you not remember what the border posts were like before the GFA? Mini-forts that still got blown up regularly. The IRA would see any attempt to re-impose them and re-partition Ireland as an affront 

 

Not only will putting them back break the GFA it will cost a fortune 

so it would be an affront ? Why ?

how would this effect the IRA and others ?

Are you saying the paramilitaries don't want to obeys laws unless its by the use of force ?

Where does it state in the agreement about what type of borders ?

Both the North and South have "Free" movement through the border, they just have to be checked as per most countries borders. with most of it done by electronic, with occasional stop and check , as per most countries

Why should that be a problem ? Does it stop the drug smuggling, gun running ? no, they use the old routes across the farms for that, so why else should it start another round of murders

Its a border, so if they obey the EU rules, as well as the UKs, why would anyone need mini forts 

Why would it cost a fortune, the EU would be the ones to impose either electronic or hard border, not the U

 

 

 

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

We were told that leaving would be easy and that we would get an agreement with the EU that would be beneficial to the UK in every way. Does this sound much like the deal that May negotiated? Does this sound anything like a no deal Brexit?

no

but if the remainers stopped telling lies and blocking every move, we would have been out by now wouldn't we ?

 

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

physical infrastructure

 https://goo.gl/maps/s7GXZHitf5YawzLP7

 

 

 

 

yup, with a mix of physical and electronic

so what would be the problem with that ?

it works everywhere else, so why should Ireland be exempt ?

 

[petemoss]

8 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

yup, with a mix of physical and electronic

so what would be the problem with that ?

it works everywhere else, so why should Ireland be exempt ?

 

What electronic? Do you mean the electronic that's going to take at least 5 years to develop and then probably won't work? Where else does it work? please tell us.

 

Ireland should be exempt because it invalidates the GFA.

 

Do try to keep up.

 

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Putting aside your multiple unfounded assertions in one short sentence. 

 

It's always  somebody else's fault. 

 

 

 

Another hackneyed expression used as a get out of jail free card, probably used 50/100 times but complains when somebody uses a meme a couple of times. 

[Joinaman]

2 minutes ago, petemoss said:

What electronic? Do you mewan the electronic that's going to take at least 5 years to develop and then probably won't work? Where else does it work? please tell us.

 

Ireland should be exempt because it invalidates the GFA.

 

Do try to keep up.

how much goods comes through Dover , with customs clearance done online  electronically, with most trucks a showing the correct papers then continuing ?

If it works there, why would it take years in Ireland, or is it too difficult for Irish people to understand ?

Can you show me where it invalidates the GFA ? there will still be free crossing of any border for Both Irish people so why should it effect them so much

Sorry, but i do find it hard to keep up with the minds of the Irish , must be all those potatoes they eat 

 

[petemoss]

1 minute ago, Joinaman said:

how much goods comes through Dover , with customs clearance done online  electronically, with most trucks a showing the correct papers then continuing ?

If it works there, why would it take years in Ireland, or is it too difficult for Irish people to understand ?

Can you show me where it invalidates the GFA ? there will still be free crossing of any border for Both Irish people so why should it effect them so much

Sorry, but i do find it hard to keep up with the minds of the Irish , must be all those potatoes they eat 

 

All your questions have already been answered. No wonder you find it hard to keep up with the minds of the Irish, you seem to find it impossible to keep up with this topic.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and the trolling replies have been removed. 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Joinaman said:

so it would be an affront ? Why ?

how would this effect the IRA and others ?

Are you saying the paramilitaries don't want to obeys laws unless its by the use of force ?

 

 

I can't believe you are honestly asking me that ....

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Joinaman said:

 

Both the North and South have "Free" movement through the border, they just have to be checked as per most countries borders. with most of it done by electronic, with occasional stop and check , as per most countries

Why should that be a problem ? Does it stop the drug smuggling, gun running ? no, they use the old routes across the farms for that, so why else should it start another round of murders

Its a border, so if they obey the EU rules, as well as the UKs, why would anyone need mini forts 

Why would it cost a fortune, the EU would be the ones to impose either electronic or hard border, not the U

 

 

 

What about EU citizens or illegal immigrants? They will have no rights to cross the border, but unless you check who is crossing how will you stop them from entering NI and then the UK?

 

But it's goods that is the main problem If you don't physically check them how do you know what is crossing the border? I could declare I was exporting a lorry load of expensive aircraft components to Eire and claim back the vat on them, but infact take over sa load of scrap steel. Without check the opportunities for fraud are endless.

 

 

Read the comments on this for what a return to the border will mean for the folk there 

 

 

 

https://www.quora.com/What-benefit-of-our-EU-membership-will-you-regret-losing-the-most-if-Brexit-actually-happens/answer/Rachel-Anderson-166

[Loiner]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

What about EU citizens or illegal immigrants? They will have no rights to cross the border, but unless you check who is crossing how will you stop them from entering NI and then the UK?

 

EU citizens would have no problem anyway. They will be roaming around on holiday in RVs as usual. The others will be caught at the benefits offices, as they try to claim as usual.

How many illegal immigrants are there in non-schengen Ireland anyway?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

EU citizens would have no problem anyway. They will be roaming around on holiday in RVs as usual. The others will be caught at the benefits offices, as they try to claim as usual.

How many illegal immigrants are there in non-schengen Ireland anyway?

How do illegal immigrants claim benefits?

 

They'd have to be registered as entitled to claim benefits first. 

 

Can you provide a believable explanation of how this happens or are you making stuff up?

[transam]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How do illegal immigrants claim benefits?

 

They'd have to be registered as entitled to claim benefits first. 

 

Can you provide a believable explanation of how this happens or are you making stuff up?

Illegal immigrants are let loose on the streets and are given cash until their stuff is sorted..

[CharlieH]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How do illegal immigrants claim benefits?

 

They'd have to be registered as entitled to claim benefits first. 

 

Can you provide a believable explanation of how this happens or are you making stuff up?

Hardship payment

Emergency payment

Crisis loan

 

To name but a few, all available via benefits !

https://www.benefitsguide.co.uk/emergency-assistance/

 

Also local council discretionary assistance. 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

Illegal immigrants are let loose on the streets and are given cash until their stuff is sorted..

More unsubstantiated claims.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Hardship payment

Emergency payment

Crisis loan

 

To name but a few, all available via benefits !

https://www.benefitsguide.co.uk/emergency-assistance/

Non of which is payable to illegal immigrants. 

 

So once again, more unsubstantiated claims. 

[transam]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

More unsubstantiated claims.

Go on youtube, UK border force, sift through the program episodes...

[CharlieH]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Non of which is payable to illegal immigrants. 

 

So once again, more unsubstantiated claims

It payable to anyone they deem qualifies based on their individual circumstances.

[Chomper Higgot]

20 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

It payable to anyone they deem qualifies based on their individual circumstances.

And to qualify they need to explain their circumstances. 

 

At which point they must produce a few bits of missing information.