MPs seek to block no-deal Brexit by stopping government funds

[stephenterry]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

quote "The suggestion that we could or should be taken out of the EU without the consent of the House of Commons is fundamentally wrong, and frankly unconstitutional,” Grieve told The Sun.

Clarke, 78, asked by reporters if he would vote with Grieve, said: “Yes, I have always voted with all those votes ... and I hope they eventually find some procedural device (to stop no deal).”

He added: “It is just unthinkable that the government could take us out with no deal, without a majority and we’ve slowly got more people to pluck up courage on no-deal. We have a majority of about 100 in the (650-seat) House of Commons against leaving with no deal.”

 

What these arrogant dunderheads seem to forget that they were elected parliament by the votes of the common people and to represent the common people. They are there in an extremely well paid job with great perks and pensions the the taxpayers pay for. They are NOT there to impose the will of some 600 or people over the will of millions more. They already voted to leave and now they want to change their minds and back track.

 

IF, and it is a big IF, they succeed then they have signed the death warrant of the Tory party and themselves. If that happens then the new leader can simply call a general election and they will all be fired and a very few may be reselected but the party as a party will never get into power again for many years.

 

IMHO it will not happen.

On the other hand, I hope it does send the Tory party into exile. Waste of space.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

quote "The suggestion that we could or should be taken out of the EU without the consent of the House of Commons is fundamentally wrong, and frankly unconstitutional,” Grieve told The Sun.

Clarke, 78, asked by reporters if he would vote with Grieve, said: “Yes, I have always voted with all those votes ... and I hope they eventually find some procedural device (to stop no deal).”

He added: “It is just unthinkable that the government could take us out with no deal, without a majority and we’ve slowly got more people to pluck up courage on no-deal. We have a majority of about 100 in the (650-seat) House of Commons against leaving with no deal.”

 

What these arrogant dunderheads seem to forget that they were elected parliament by the votes of the common people and to represent the common people. They are there in an extremely well paid job with great perks and pensions the the taxpayers pay for. They are NOT there to impose the will of some 600 or people over the will of millions more. They already voted to leave and now they want to change their minds and back track.

 

IF, and it is a big IF, they succeed then they have signed the death warrant of the Tory party and themselves. If that happens then the new leader can simply call a general election and they will all be fired and a very few may be reselected but the party as a party will never get into power again for many years.

 

IMHO it will not happen.

There is zero evidence that all the ‘common people’ want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit.

 

Which leaves a gaping hole in your argument, given the duty of Parliament to represent all the people.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Chomper Higgot

[stephenterry]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is zero evidence that all the ‘common people’ want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit.

 

Which leaves a gaping hole in your argument, given the duty of Parliament to represent all the people.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that's right. There is zero evidence that all the common people want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit. Or even half of the common people. Time for another referendum to resolve it, then?

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is zero evidence that all the ‘common people’ want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit.

 

Which leaves a gaping hole in your argument, given the duty of Parliament to represent all the people.

 

 

 

 

17.4 million of the electorate voted to leave, how much more "evidence" do you need?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

17.4 million of the electorate voted to leave, how much more "evidence" do you need?

Read what I wrote and see if you and work it out. 

 

Parliament has a duty to represent all the people. 

 

Representative democracy is not winner takes all. 

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Yeah, that's right. There is zero evidence that all the common people want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit. Or even half of the common people. Time for another referendum to resolve it, then?

The whole Brexit claim 'will of the people' is patent hogwash. 

[vogie]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Read what I wrote and see if you and work it out. 

 

Parliament has a duty to represent all the people. 

 

Representative democracy is not winner takes all. 

I am sure (well not that sure) that Parliament does represent all the people, unless you are a Liberal Democrat who only want to represent remainers, Labour is not too sure who they want to represent, the Tories are split on who they represent, the only party that democratically wants to represent the 17.4 (majority) are the Brexit party. Can you see it is an impossible task to make everyone happy, it is not going to happen, there will be people dissapointed that they havn't got their own way, that is how democracy works.

Now don't go all echolalia on me.????

 

[stephenterry]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Read what I wrote and see if you and work it out. 

 

Parliament has a duty to represent all the people. 

 

Representative democracy is not winner takes all. 

Quite correct. About time posters learnt the meaning of democracy. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

I am sure (well not that sure) that Parliament does represent all the people, unless you are a Liberal Democrat who only want to represent remainers, Labour is not too sure who they want to represent, the Tories are split on who they represent, the only party that democratically wants to represent the 17.4 (majority) are the Brexit party. Can you see it is an impossible task to make everyone happy, it is not going to happen, there will be people dissapointed that they havn't got their own way, that is how democracy works.

Now don't go all echolalia on me.????

 

Agree.

 

Prepare to be disappointed. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Quite correct. About time posters learnt the meaning of democracy. 

One of the most shocking revelations of this whole crock of Brexit is the revelation of the extent of ignorance amongst Brexiteers on the very basics of the UK's parliamentary democracy and the relationship between the UK and the EU. 

 

When the discussion moves to how the EU operates Brexiteers wander off into pure fantasy. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

One of the most shocking revelations of this whole crock of Brexit is the revelation of the extent of ignorance amongst Brexiteers on the very basics of the UK's parliamentary democracy and the relationship between the UK and the EU. 

 

When the discussion moves to how the EU operates Brexiteers wander off into pure fantasy. 

I think your take on the UKs democracy is the same as Nick Berrys 'Every Loser Wins'

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I think your take on the UKs democracy is the same as Nick Berrys 'Every Loser Wins'

My take is on how the UK's representative democracy is set up and operates. 

 

 

[vogie]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

My take is on how the UK's representative democracy is set up and operates. 

 

 

At the moment Chomper it is not working very well is it, ignore the people at your peril.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

At the moment Chomper it is not working very well is it, ignore the people at your peril.

You might think that, millions disagree with you.

 

It is patently obvious that neither Johnson nor Hunt will get the majority support in Parliament for a no deal Brexit, and that's before the animosity either candidate raises plays a part. It is also very clear that talk of proroguing Parliament is little more than nonsense (dangerous nonsense, but nonsense all the same). 

 

So what we actually have is the main candidate for the post of PM running his mouth and making threats that he surely knows are hollow hogwash. Not everyone is taken in by this nonsense.

 

Parliament is doing exactly what it should do, representing all the people regardless what they voted for or even if they did not vote. 

 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You might think that, millions disagree with you.

 

It is patently obvious that neither Johnson nor Hunt will get the majority support in Parliament for a no deal Brexit, and that's before the animosity either candidate raises plays a part. It is also very clear that talk of proroguing Parliament is little more than nonsense (dangerous nonsense, but nonsense all the same). 

 

So what we actually have is the main candidate for the post of PM running his mouth and making threats that he surely knows are hollow hogwash. Not everyone is taken in by this nonsense.

 

Parliament is doing exactly what it should do, representing all the people regardless what they voted for or even if they did not vote. 

 

 

Maybe Hunt or Johnson may not get a majority, that still does not mean we will not leave the EU with a no deal. By law it is the default option, the EU will have a say on this also. Lets be honest, nobody has a clue.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Maybe Hunt or Johnson may not get a majority, that still does not mean we will not leave the EU with a no deal. By law it is the default option, the EU will have a say on this also. Lets be honest, nobody has a clue.

If the PM doesn't get the backing of Parliament it aint happening. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If the PM doesn't get the backing of Parliament it aint happening. 

Our parliament has no control of the EU parliament.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Our parliament has no control of the EU parliament.

A Brexiteer flip. 

 

The EU will do anything to avoid a no-deal Brexit, but somehow will force a no-deal Brexit if Parliament refuses to approve a no deal Brexit. 

 

Its difficult keeping up sometimes.

 

The only chance of a no-deal Brexit is if Parliament approves it, and its been a Brexiteer gripe that Parliament will not do so. 

 

Which begs the question(s) why is Johnson even discussing the prospect and while that might be because he's a liar and doesn't care what he says, it leaves un answered why anyone  swallows his nonsense?

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A Brexiteer flip. 

 

The EU will do anything to avoid a no-deal Brexit, but somehow will force a no-deal Brexit if Parliament refuses to approve a no deal Brexit. 

 

Its difficult keeping up sometimes.

 

The only chance of a no-deal Brexit is if Parliament approves it, and its been a Brexiteer gripe that Parliament will not do so. 

 

Which begs the question(s) why is Johnson even discussing the prospect and while that might be because he's a liar and doesn't care what he says, it leaves un answered why anyone  swallows his nonsense?

 

I would appreciate less patronisation Chomper, you are above that and I don't deserve it.

 

All Boris has to do is not to bother writing to the EU and we are out. Do you think that the French will go back on their word and grant another extension.

 

Your version varys from a lot of MPs, Stephen Kinnock even admitted on the Politics Live Show that there was a strong chance of a no deal.

 

Boris might say that the odds on a no deal are a million to one, but PaddyPower are only offering 2/1. 

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

I would appreciate less patronisation Chomper, you are above that and I don't deserve it.

 

All Boris has to do is not to bother writing to the EU and we are out. Do you think that the French will go back on their word and grant another extension.

 

Your version varys from a lot of MPs, Stephen Kinnock even admitted on the Politics Live Show that there was a strong chance of a no deal.

 

Boris might say that the odds on a no deal are a million to one, but PaddyPower are only offering 2/1. 

I doubt a Johnson Government will last that long.

 

Parliament, which will not back no-deal has the power to bring down the Government.

 

1,000,000 : 1 is still too big a risk in the hands of a habitually lying idiot.

[vogie]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I doubt a Johnson Government will last that long.

 

Parliament, which will not back no-deal has the power to bring down the Government.

 

1,000,000 : 1 is still too big a risk in the hands of a habitually lying idiot.

At the end of the day Chomper, all hypotheticals.

[Joinaman]

Well, if nothing else, this shower of shit has taught me never, ever to believe any politician ever again

I just hope they kick out this No Deal, then kick out the Tories, and install Labour

Lets see all these pieces of shit, politicians, remainers, etc, complain when we are still in the EU, but with the unions running the country

I'm gunna sit at my pool and watch how the UK is reduced to a third world country, just like in the 70s, with strikes, inflation , job losses, hyper inflation

But that's what the so called "remainers " want,to ignore the people who voted ?

Can we expect the same when we have an election, people wanting a 2nd vote because they didn't like the result of the 1st one ?

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

At the end of the day Chomper, all hypotheticals.

On that we agree.

 

For now.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

Well, if nothing else, this shower of shit has taught me never, ever to believe any politician ever again

I just hope they kick out this No Deal, then kick out the Tories, and install Labour

Lets see all these pieces of shit, politicians, remainers, etc, complain when we are still in the EU, but with the unions running the country

I'm gunna sit at my pool and watch how the UK is reduced to a third world country, just like in the 70s, with strikes, inflation , job losses, hyper inflation

But that's what the so called "remainers " want,to ignore the people who voted ?

Can we expect the same when we have an election, people wanting a 2nd vote because they didn't like the result of the 1st one ?

 

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the ‘easy promises’ you were offered and the people who fed them to you.

[Krataiboy]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

It's not democratic for any UK government to try and subvert the will of parliament. Parliament is the sovereign body.

This parliament doesn't have any will. Just a lot of Remainer won't.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Yeah, that's right. There is zero evidence that all the common people want Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit. Or even half of the common people. Time for another referendum to resolve it, then?

Absolutely, as long as the first (of many) referendums is completed.

 

IF the second referendum also is in favour of Brexit will you accept that as democracy and cease your incessant babblings? A simple yes or no answer is all that is required.

 

There is also zero evidence that all of the population is in favour of the Tories, Labour, Lib/Dems/ Green party, Brexit party etc. At this point it is FPTP.

 

Does that mean that the party you support should run the country and ignore the democratic vote from the electorate?

3 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Quite correct. About time posters learnt the meaning of democracy. 

Unfortunately for you both that is reality under the FPTP system in use in the UK at the moment.

 

If you don't like it the get your MP (if you have a vote) to do something about it, but don't be to disappointed if nothing happens.

 

Alternatively go back to the UK, stand for parliament, convenience at least 400 current MPs that you are right and they are wrong and you can then introduce PR.

 

Personally I can't see it happening but I do wish you the best of luck.

[alant]

15 hours ago, stephenterry said:

If the hard-line Brexiteers of the ERG had voted with Johnson and Hunt to pass the WAG, the UK would have left in March. This deal, although far from perfect, according to some, is far better than a no-deal scenario -and quite rightly parliament would aim to prevent a no-deal, as it woud ruin the UK economy, devalue sterling, etc etc.

Many have opinions about the effects and validity of a no deal but to rule it out seriously weakens the negotiating position. As for devaluing sterling, as members, which we are, sterling has lost rather a lot.

[stephenterry]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

Absolutely, as long as the first (of many) referendums is completed.

 

IF the second referendum also is in favour of Brexit will you accept that as democracy and cease your incessant babblings? A simple yes or no answer is all that is required.

 

There is also zero evidence that all of the population is in favour of the Tories, Labour, Lib/Dems/ Green party, Brexit party etc. At this point it is FPTP.

 

Does that mean that the party you support should run the country and ignore the democratic vote from the electorate?

Unfortunately for you both that is reality under the FPTP system in use in the UK at the moment.

 

If you don't like it the get your MP (if you have a vote) to do something about it, but don't be to disappointed if nothing happens.

 

Alternatively go back to the UK, stand for parliament, convenience at least 400 current MPs that you are right and they are wrong and you can then introduce PR.

 

Personally I can't see it happening but I do wish you the best of luck.

i'm not avoiding the question, but it would depend on the referendum questionnaire - if there is one - which could have several alternatives to vote for. I could reason right now it wouldn't just be a simple leave or remain.

 

As for political democracy, it has been explained ad infinitum on here that MPs  - our sovereign parliament - should be enacting what's best for the country, full stop - not a FPTP. Our democracy is such that ALL people deserve to be heard and the government should be accountable for whatever course they decide to take.  

 

I suspect that at the next election PR could be introduced - or at least mandated by one or two parties.   

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, alant said:

Many have opinions about the effects and validity of a no deal but to rule it out seriously weakens the negotiating position.

Removing an empty threat doesn’t weaken a negotiation position. The EU holds all the cards; the negotiation position of the UK cannot be weakened further. 

 

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Removing an empty threat doesn’t weaken a negotiation position. The EU holds all the cards; the negotiation position of the UK cannot be weakened further. 

 

"Removing an empty threat doesn’t weaken a negotiation position."

 

I agree, which is why May/Ollie and the like turning 'no deal' into an "empty threat" is so despicable.

 

"The EU holds all the cards"

 

Disagree entirely.   BOTH sides will lose out in the event of no deal, and then be forced to the far less preferable (and more expensive) option of having to negotiate the various issues, individually, after the event..... 

 

Additionally, (in this scenario - no deal) the uk will have already left, so uk politicians will have fewer reasons to back down on every point.  Both sides are likely to be forced into the position of having to genuinely negotiate! ????