Blatant abuse of entry denials at Phuket Airport

[JackThompson]

On 7/8/2019 at 6:48 PM, brewsterbudgen said:

That is standard. It's pretty much the only legal reason for denying entry when they suspect you are not a genuine tourist.

There is no definition of "genuine tourist" - no reference in the regulations that would match - therefore no legal-cause to deny someone for such.   They denied-entry to someone based on a lie.

 

It is no different than cases of police framing someone for a crime they didn't commit - only in this case the consequences are less severe to the falsely accused.

 

On 7/8/2019 at 8:11 PM, JohnnyBKK said:

Sorting affairs is not being a tourist, the immigration officer was right then when he thought he wasn't a tourist. The problem is, there is no visas to sort your affairs before leaving. I guess one has to sort his affairs first, when he knows he will not be renewing his work permit. Sell the car first before leaving Thailand. Actually that's the logic thing to do. I was in Dubai last month and I bought stuff from someone who was going to leave in 2 months, he was sorting his affairs 2 months in advance.

Sorting affairs is in no way a violation of the rules regarding Tourist Visas.  The regulations are simply that you have money to support yourself, don't take employment in Thailand while in the country on a "tourist" type permitted stay, and don't otherwise violate laws which could get any permitted-stay cancelled. 

 

The IO lied about why they denied-entry, so are most definitely In The Wrong.  Saying they are denying for one reason, then stamping something else in the passport, erases all doubt.

[SenorJorge]

One thing they've made abundantly clear (especially in terms of policing) since the last election is the military is still running Thailand.  This is just my casual observation as a foreigner living in Thailand since the coup, but I think its accurate.

 

When I was leaving Thailand last time I got cold chills as the IO looked at her computer, looked at my passport, and looked at me.  This went on for about ten minutes it seemed like, the line was long, and people were getting impatient.  Finally I tried a weak smile, she grimmaced at me, shot me dagger eyes, and slammed the stamp down on the passport down so load that it seemed to make the desk shake.  "Thank you", I meekly said, as she tossed my passport at my hands.

 

We don't have to put up with this gestapo treatment.  Those of you who are unhappy with the way immigration police/the Thai bureaucracy treats you, my advice is to leave Thailand.  Send them a message that they have no right to treat law abiding people the way they do.  Good people who bring good money into the Kingdom every year.  Thailand is over for me, too.  I'm moving on to other destinations.  Its getting hard for me to find good things to say about Thailand that I can't find elsewhere anyhow.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

If you look at Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, you will understand better.

 

The more developed the country, the harsher the Immigration.

 

What you don't understand is the discrepancy between the level of development of Thailand and their Immigration policies, and why they are applying the same models other countries do. You are likely right about it, i also feel there is a discrepancy, but take into account you have a Junta in power.

They are not applying "the same models" though - just doing a sort of cargo-cultish imitation of such (reference: the pacific islanders who built straw/bamboo planes and control towers after the real planes left) - maybe after watching that Australian airport-nightmare show.  These IOs are acting without a logical purpose or goal.

 

At the root, this is almost certainly a "bonus money" paid-for operation, given that seems to drive everything with immigration.  I can only wonder what their take of the loot from the detention-room, air-ticket commission, and/or other source(s) was.

 

I don't think a change in govt - even a reversion to the prior one - would make much if any difference.  It would take a lot of political capital spent to reign-in the massive piles of money immigration takes in under-the-table - would be outright dangerous to try.  I don't think "the farangs" rate high enough to be worth it to any of the political factions. 

 

We don't have a political voice - and shouldn't need one, if the system were simply behaving in a sane manner. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 10:51 PM, HampiK said:

It's not weird at all! There are so many examples of people like and really want to work in Thailand.

There are for sure some who really make a good salary, but there are also a lot who really make a little income but they don't care, as long they can stay in Thailand and enjoy the Thai style of life...

I don't think it is common for Westerners to come here for under-the-table jobs w/o work-permits.   I'm not saying it never happens, but is so rare by comparison to those from neighboring countries, that it would be a fools-errand to expend any effort on the issue - if that were really the issue in the first place. 

 

If current policies are a guide, if we were willing to work as cheap as the poor folks from neighboring countries, the IOs would be be ordered to leave us alone, or to give us "L-Visas," to help undercut Thai wage-scales.

 

Schools delaying the paperwork on those just starting to teach English, is about as far as that goes - a practice which, combined with immigration's changes, has led to the schools having to scrape the bottom of the barrel for lower-quality teachers who are themselves ESLs.  

 

As the OP had a legal work-permit previously, there was no reason to suspect he was coming to work illegally.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 8:53 PM, lkv said:

On what basis does the Phnom Pehn embassy put blue notes on visas.

PP is a known horrible place to get a TR Visa, these days.  We know they will put that stamp on the 2nd or 3rd TR Visa they see in your passport - and in this case, probably because the OP had "been here awhile" before.

 

[athousand]

The whole 'you are not a tourist' argument confuses me. Firstly, there are many edge cases that are 'allowed' such as looking for a job. Secondly, unless Thailand does the simple job of stating a clear number of days per year that is acceptable to them to be a 'tourist' how is up to the keyboard warriors here to make that definition?

Maybe the good folks here who argue that 'tourists' are not 'tourists' could just have the balls and be clear about their position? You don't want 'farangs' in Thailand who have enough money to stay here indefinitely? Are you jealous/ frustrated or what? Could you please stop hiding behind your negative posts and just get it out there.

You don't think it's fair that there are people who have enough money to travel and enjoy their lives? You believe that in doing so they are 'gaming the system' and somehow making your life worse?

Seriously - look at yourself and your life. It has nothing to do with these people that you take so mich pleasure in their misfortune.

You may not believe it but we're all in this together.


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[JohnnyBKK]

42 minutes ago, athousand said:

The whole 'you are not a tourist' argument confuses me. Firstly, there are many edge cases that are 'allowed' such as looking for a job. Secondly, unless Thailand does the simple job of stating a clear number of days per year that is acceptable to them to be a 'tourist' how is up to the keyboard warriors here to make that definition?

Maybe the good folks here who argue that 'tourists' are not 'tourists' could just have the balls and be clear about their position? You don't want 'farangs' in Thailand who have enough money to stay here indefinitely? Are you jealous/ frustrated or what? Could you please stop hiding behind your negative posts and just get it out there.

You don't think it's fair that there are people who have enough money to travel and enjoy their lives? You believe that in doing so they are 'gaming the system' and somehow making your life worse?

Seriously - look at yourself and your life. It has nothing to do with these people that you take so mich pleasure in their misfortune.

You may not believe it but we're all in this together.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

To this Thailand has an answer... elite visa, everyone I know has it. If you really have the money to be a full time tourist prove it by buying the visa.

 

Or you have to work or you are rich enough to buy the visa. No long term cheap charlie tourists wanted. Message loud and clear.

[Briggsy]

6 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

To this Thailand has an answer... elite visa,

Indeed. And this I suspect is the driving force behind these denials. Thai Elite has no "purchases" on its financial statements. Profit is simply sales less admin and marketing costs. Sales will have rocketed since this denial of entry campaign got real. If they just sell two 5-year versions a day, that's 365 x 2 x 500,000 Baht in annual revenue. That's a lot of profit, perhaps 160 million after costs.

 

I believe Immigration have joined the marketing team. And they are enjoying the spoils.

[Briggsy]

4 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

We're all in this together and we all need to follow the same rules.

Which "rules" apply?

The visa requirements of the embassies/consulates under the MFA?

The entry guidelines as interpreted by Chiang Mai airport and most land borders?

The very different interpretation of Section 12 of the Immigration Act as used by the Bangkok airports?

 

I would love to "follow the same rules" but they are not the same, they are totally inconsistent. They change with which office or province you deal with and they change from month to month in their application.

 

Your posts are smug, unhelpful and add nothing constructive to this thread. I believe you are trolling this conversation. If not, one day, you too will find you have a problem at Immigration as they have changed the "rules" in their capricious manner. 

[LivinLOS]

On 7/4/2019 at 6:22 PM, dtag said:

Ok I guess no respect for basic privacy on this forum. I am an American citizen and properly credentialed teacher with a Masters in Education who has taught only in fully accredited international schools around the world for 15 years. I have never been an ESL type English teacher.  Every position I have taken in the different schools I have worked in has involved recruiting me form another country to work there.  So I have never gone anywhere and gotten a job as a tourist and then changed visa. I always go into a new country  with the full work visa arranged before I get there, That was the case with the job I just left in Phuket.

I planned to take a year off months ahead, so I checked several times with the office staff at my school about when my work visa would cancelled so as I would time out well when to return on a tourist visa. I also researched and felt that the 60 day tourist visa would be the more responsible thing to do as I knew the Thailand portion of my trip would be longer than 30 days, and i didn't want to do any border runs. (as I have never done one before).

Both I and the Thai director from the school I just left told this to the overzealous immigration officer and he refused to listen . I understand enough Thai to know he just told his coworkers that I was putting my friends on the phone and that he was not going to let me in no matter what.

When I showed him a pane ticket from Bangkok to Phnom Penh as proof of exit, he claimed it was more evidence of a future "visa run"

So maybe you keyboard warriors can get off your high horses and maybe , just maybe, admit, that I may have gotten screwed by an a-hole immigration team who laughed while they did it. Because I have just had to spend 3 days hearing about them behaving in quite similar ways  to other people while we have been confined in a small room together. 

I would use my time to craft a decent enough press release, detailing the facts but brief enough to retain reader impact, and send it to every tabloid rag in UK, Oz, etc.. Emphasise ruined holiday, lost hotel reservations, incurred damages and costs through no fault arbitrary decision making, etc. 

Many of these seem to be quite keen of late to jump on a Thai basing bandwagon (see the phad thai case lately) and issues like this deserve every bit of damage that can be done. 

As you walk out the door, getting on your plane, click send. 

[Briggsy]

4 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

The message from Thai Immigration is clear to me

But not in line with the law.

But not announced officially.

But not from Thai Immigration, only certain offices.

But not at the majority of the entry points e.g. Nong Khai, Chiang Mai.

But not recorded on the database.

But totally at odds with the clearly announced visa issuing requirements under the MFA.

 

Not so clear, is it? 

 

7 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

What are you trying to achieve by your rants here?

rants??

 

I am trying to understand and analyse a situation which is opaque and providing headaches and cost for people unnecessarily.

8 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

It seems like you just want to stir up discontent with immigration. 

Are you threatening me? Are you paid to shut this down?

[lamyai3]

19 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

The message from Thai Immigration is clear to me, repeat tourist visa can be looked at carefully and entry may be denied. Try it are your own risk.

This is certainly true, no one would deny this in recent times. However your posts go above and beyond stating this as a fact, to the extent of applauding immigration's policies and condemning those who've fallen foul of the rule changes in recent times. You're only here yourself because of the more benevolent administrations that existed in the past. Any accusations of "smug" are quite appropriate when you're casting aspersions on people who are victims of a system far more onerous than that which applied back in your day. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by lamyai3

[LivinLOS]

8 hours ago, JohnnyBKK said:

To this Thailand has an answer... elite visa, everyone I know has it. If you really have the money to be a full time tourist prove it by buying the visa.

 

Or you have to work or you are rich enough to buy the visa. No long term cheap charlie tourists wanted. Message loud and clear.

While I understand the recommendation, and have pushed it myself for people who want to purchase defacto 'residency' without fitting other visa categories. 

 

The elite visa is actually a terrible option for someone who doesnt want to base themselves here and is a valid wealthy tourist.. Its an odd situation that what the elite visa actually does (enable easy long stay) it is specifically not designed for (they say it isnt for people to live here and is actually harder to get driving licenses, work permits, and things of that resident nature). 

 

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, FredGallaher said:

Only Thais have the right to stay in Thailand. The rest of us are guests and must follow the rules of our host. Gaming the system or not is not my concern. Its up to Thai immigration. I follow there rules and I'm happy here. 

If you feel the rules are unfair to you, no one has forced you to stay. 

We're all in this together and we all need to follow the same rules. 

No, we are not guests.......we are customers and the service given to us is substandard.

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 minute ago, FredGallaher said:

You are really an angry guy. Things are changing and its getting harder to find work arounds. I just try to state facts as they are. It's not up to me to judge. I'm not paid to shut this down, but your rants are a lot of BS.

Sorry but I find this discussion over and I need to move on to something meaningful.

No, he's not angry, you just don't like facts, or, not having an answer to them. That's why you're having a flounce.

[lamyai3]

5 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

It's not up to me to judge.

Then why do you keep judging people? 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Just now, FredGallaher said:

To be customers you need to buy something and pay for services. As with all dissatisfied customers / guests you can vote with your feet. 

Errrrrm......we buy the opportunity to live here and we pay for the services that entails, plus all the associated costs of living here.

Fortunately, ordinary life is great. Immigration is a fly in the ointment. Not worth leaving the country for, but, it's still terrible service none-the-less.

[HampiK]

I can somehow understand they refuse people who try to live in Thailand on Tourist Visa.

But the Story of the OP... there I see absolutely no reason for a denial. And the worst is that they not saying the truth about it.

I mean if they would tell him from begining they suggesting he will work again there, and also write that reason in the passport. Then the whole story would make more sense and the OP could maybe give an good argument why he is not working (maybe he couldn't) but at least would make more sense. 

 

But as they say its because of working but in the passport it's the another reason (the reason which I and I think many other TV member not really understand the real background). Why I say not really understand, as in my opinion this reason is not only about money, as they have a separate clause for the money option (I hope to remember correct 2).. but they use something which somehow sounds like money but could also have another meaning... anyway doesn't matter as we can't change this... 

I really would like to know what would happen if someone really would have evidence about a case and made this public... what would be the response from TAT???

[lamyai3]

3 minutes ago, HampiK said:

I really would like to know what would happen if someone really would have evidence about a case and made this public... what would be the response from TAT???

Any credible evidence would require specifics, and since it's almost certainly not allowed to make a video of an IO carrying out a denial of entry, the best alternative might be to make a mental note of the names and numbers of any corrupt officers involved from their ID badges, to be used in later complaints. 

[brewsterbudgen]

All this concern when the OP's case appears to be a one-off. Distressing for him, and for me if it turns out to be a new rule, but there is zero evidence of this.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[BritTim]

25 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

All this concern when the OP's case appears to be a one-off. Distressing for him, and for me if it turns out to be a new rule, but there is zero evidence of this.

According to the OP, it was not a one-off even for that day at that airport.

 

What is alarming is not knowing what "new rule" might suddenly be sprung on anyone the next time they are passing through Thai immigration.

 

Some posters are for ever saying that you just need to follow the rules, and there is no problem, but they cannot point to any source that describes what these "rules" we need to follow are. Some of us just rely on the law, published Police Orders and public announcements from Immigration. I would be very interested in knowing other sources that describe the rules that, if followed, guarantee entry into Thailand.

[phuketrichard]

Quote

.... I would be very interested in knowing other sources that describe the rules that, if followed, guarantee entry into Thailand.  ...

 

NONE, as its always, ( worldwide) at the discretion of the immigration officer.

[fhickson]

you left and returned after only 8 days. i think you have to stay out of country for at least 30 days even with a new visa.

[Parker2100]

On 7/9/2019 at 7:35 AM, FredGallaher said:

They don't have to admit traveler if they suspect something. It could be your demeanor or how your dressed. What were you doing in other countries? Was it some kind of business etc? Were you living off the land so to speak? The purpose of letting tourist into Thailand is for the tourist to help support the economy not the other way around. This may or may not apply to you but it applied to many others.

 

None of that applies to me. I had all the documentation they needed.  3 immigration officers were talking to me at once.  They asked questions then talked over me when I tried to answer.  They asked for documentation then wouldn't look at it when I dig it out of my pack.

[Parker2100]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

Some posters are for ever saying that you just need to follow the rules, and there is no problem, but they cannot point to any source that describes what these "rules" we need to follow are. Some of us just rely on the law, published Police Orders and public announcements from Immigration. I would be very interested in knowing other sources that describe the rules that, if followed, guarantee entry into Thailand.

That is because most of the things visitors are nailed on are Immigration's own internal policies.  We are expected to not only know Immigration laws and rules, but also Immmigration's own fuzzy internal policies.  And if we don't know them, it is our fault.

 

 

[Parker2100]

1 hour ago, phuketrichard said:

NONE, as its always, ( worldwide) at the discretion of the immigration officer.

But Immigration Officers are expected to make the right call.

 

A Referee that penalizes someone just because they can, is usually fired.

[Parker2100]

58 minutes ago, fhickson said:

you left and returned after only 8 days. i think you have to stay out of country for at least 30 days even with a new visa.

That sounds like an Immigration internal policy.  While, it may be reasonable, I have never seen it in print.

 

The only way most visitors have to find out about that is if they are denied entry.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, phuketrichard said:

 

NONE, as its always, ( worldwide) at the discretion of the immigration officer.

There is a difference in Thailand compared with most other countries. Under the law, immigration officials in Thailand do not have the kind of "discretion" afforded to officials in other countries. The Immigration Act is very clear that only the Minister has full discretion. Immigration officials are supposed to judge whether there are reasons under Section 12 of the Immigration Act, or of instructions issued by the Minister, to deny entry and otherwise to stamp you in. When you are entering visa exempt or requesting a visa on arrival, the officials do have official discretion. When you are entering with a visa, officials do not have any right under the law to deny entry because of personal opinions of whether you should have been issued the visa.

 

There are some who think the Minister might have issued instructions (not made public) that some should be denied entry under specifications he has given. I believe if that were true it would apply at all entry points into Thailand consistently. Further, what would be the motive in keeping those new rules secret?

[BritTim]

Just now, Parker2100 said:

That sounds like an Immigration internal policy.  While, it may be reasonable, I have never seen it in print.

 

The only way most visitors have to find out about that is if they are denied entry.

Well, according to some members here, Thai law no longer governs whether you should be allowed to enter or not. Vietnam has a rule that someone must stay out for 30 days between visa exempt entries. Maybe, Thai immigration has decided to adopt that rule at certain entry points to replace the published regulations for Thailand.

[Briggsy]

5 hours ago, FredGallaher said:

You are really an angry guy. Things are changing and its getting harder to find work arounds. I just try to state facts as they are. It's not up to me to judge. I'm not paid to shut this down, but your rants are a lot of BS.

Sorry but I find this discussion over and I need to move on to something meaningful.

Well, you have contributed absolutely nothing meaningful to this conversation, absolutely nothing.

[brewsterbudgen]

According to the OP, it was not a one-off even for that day at that airport.
 
What is alarming is not knowing what "new rule" might suddenly be sprung on anyone the next time they are passing through Thai immigration.
 
Some posters are for ever saying that you just need to follow the rules, and there is no problem, but they cannot point to any source that describes what these "rules" we need to follow are. Some of us just rely on the law, published Police Orders and public announcements from Immigration. I would be very interested in knowing other sources that describe the rules that, if followed, guarantee entry into Thailand.

It was a one-off. Other people may have been denied entry due to having too many Tourist visas or Visa-exempts. The OP had been legally working in Thailand and needed to return to sort out his affairs. If this is a new rule it will very difficult for people who have been working here.

Fortunately it seems to be a one-off.

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[BritTim]

37 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Other people may have been denied entry due to having too many Tourist visas or Visa-exempts.

Immigration has the discretion (officially and logically) to decide if someone should be denied a visa exempt entry. I also accept that if an immigration official wants to deny you entry for any reason they like (including their opinion that you should not have been issued a tourist visa) there is little you can do about it. That does not make me happy about officials (at some entry points) appropriating for themselves powers that they do not, under the law, possess.