Directed To Those Of Us Who Cannot Speak Perfect Thai

[Mumbo Jumbo]

There have been what I call “moments” when I would have given

A lot to be totally fluent in the Thai language, just to be able to

Tell the person in front of me, who has given bad service, or told an out right lie Etc,

just what I think of them...

I think you get my meaning, this is not meant as a criticism, just an observation

And a personal comment, I am trying to learn Thai, but and here’s the point of my post, which is directed to those of us who cannot speak perfect Thai, if you could

Do you think it would get you into big trouble, being able to vent your thoughts

To the person who has in some way made you wish you could speak Thai, My Thai wife is constantly telling me, if I could speak perfect Thai I would get my self into

Big trouble …? Do you think you would too…?

Mumbo

[jdinasia]

well ... if you learn PROPER Thai ... you'll learn what to say and when to say it ... so no trouble.

I have gotten close a couple of times to getting into trouble but it worked out OK ... I knew what to say to be dead assed rude .. in a VERY proper Thai way. In the couple of years since then I don't think I would have taken the risk but thankfully it worked out well.

(and yes ... no vulgarities were said by me!)

edit:

NOTHING embarasses me more than being around guy's that have learned their Thai at a beer bar or in Nana etc and hearing him speak to average Thai folks!

Edited March 15, 2007 by jdinasia

[Cyberstar]

There have been what I call “moments” when I would have given

A lot to be totally fluent in the Thai language, just to be able to

Tell the person in front of me, who has given bad service, or told an out right lie Etc,

just what I think of them...

First of all, Mr. Mumbo Jumbo Stupidumbo --- what you're trying to accomplish by learning Thai is much better accomplished by not opening your mouth - you just leave no tip and walk out the door looking like an offended goose.

[Acquiesce]

what you're trying to accomplish by learning Thai is much better accomplished by not opening your mouth - you just leave no tip and walk out the door looking like an offended goose.

Please explain exactly how this would work when dealing with building contractors, car service centers, hospitals, suppliers etc.

You presume the only service out there is that of the hospitality industry.

[Cyberstar]

Please explain exactly how this would work when dealing with building contractors, car service centers, hospitals, suppliers etc.

You presume the only service out there is that of the hospitality industry.

Yes, I did! Apologies to Mumbo Jumbo etc..., if he's beyond the 'stupid waiter' point.

[Neeranam]

I would get my self into

Big trouble …? Do you think you would too…?

Does speaking your native tongue get you into trouble there ?

Much the same.

[alexth]

I'd definitely be in big trouble

Edited March 15, 2007 by alexth

[lazeeboy]

I'd definitely be in big trouble

i know it goes against the grain but a smile and polite thai isbetter than prophanaties (not right spelling) as this does not get you any where it really pi__es them off if you dont rise to thier stupidity either way you dont get any where but you feel better after wards

[ColPyat]

To the person who has in some way made you wish you could speak Thai, My Thai wife is constantly telling me, if I could speak perfect Thai I would get my self into

Big trouble …? Do you think you would too…?

Mumbo

It very much depends.

You have to be aware though of the risks, and make a proper risk assessment before you vent your anger. Be aware that escalation of a conflict can happen in a split second here, and that there are no limits in that case, and you will have to slosh it out to the end.

Sometimes it is safer to swallow your anger.

Thais do use "rude" language, and in a conflict you can be surprised how a rich Khunying can use the worst gutter Thai . That's what it is for, and there are many very colorful insults and swearwords for that purpose. But be aware that things here go out of hand very quick, and you might be faced suddenly by death threads and/or knife wielding relatives.

I have had several such conflicts, and most of them ended up in me having to call relatives/friends as backup against the other party's group. Such a conflict is nothing i enter lightly, and only if i have no other choice.

It is not just a language question, but knowing your capabilities and limitations, including the possible back up you have, and the other person's. People do go very far here, options range from paying police to frame you and get you arrested for trumped up charges (i had to face that once, but my opponent underestimated my capabilities), up to getting you killed.

Edited March 16, 2007 by ColPyat

[Mobi]

I'm a pretty angry, grumpy, 'One foot in the grave' type of old codger, and there's plenty of things in Thailand that annoy me on a daily basis - as there is in most places.

I would never claim my Thai as being fluent, but it's pretty fair, and I can converse on most subjects with a bit of effort.

I may be wrong, but my guess is that as you learn to speak reasonable Thai, you have to start to think the way Thais do and express yourself the way Thais do, and in some respects you have to learn and immerse yourself in the culture. If you don't do this, you will never be able to converse properly. In a great many instances there is no exact translation from English to Thai, (as there would be from one European language to another), and as you start to understand this and translate/speak properly, you will find your desire to 'have a go at people' or speak rudely to them in Thai will dissipate, as it is just not part of normal Thai behaviour, as it may be in the west.

And if you do this, then you will find that you won't want to say the things in Thai that you used to want to say in English, and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that. Sure you will still get angry, and sometimes still say angry things, but for the most part, my guess is that if you can really speak Thai to any degree of fluency, you will start to do it the Thai way.

Any thoughts on this from the experts?

[ColPyat]

and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that.

That then doesn't count for my Thai neighbors in the compound on the right, who beat the shit out of each other at least once a week, while using rather rude language during their arguments. I can remember once how one of them was even stabbed by his cousin.

[Flysiam]

I'm a pretty angry, grumpy, 'One foot in the grave' type of old codger, and there's plenty of things in Thailand that annoy me on a daily basis - as there is in most places.

I would never claim my Thai as being fluent, but it's pretty fair, and I can converse on most subjects with a bit of effort.

I may be wrong, but my guess is that as you learn to speak reasonable Thai, you have to start to think the way Thais do and express yourself the way Thais do, and in some respects you have to learn and immerse yourself in the culture. If you don't do this, you will never be able to converse properly. In a great many instances there is no exact translation from English to Thai, (as there would be from one European language to another), and as you start to understand this and translate/speak properly, you will find your desire to 'have a go at people' or speak rudely to them in Thai will dissipate, as it is just not part of normal Thai behaviour, as it may be in the west.

And if you do this, then you will find that you won't want to say the things in Thai that you used to want to say in English, and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that. Sure you will still get angry, and sometimes still say angry things, but for the most part, my guess is that if you can really speak Thai to any degree of fluency, you will start to do it the Thai way.

Any thoughts on this from the experts?

Well said...... Thais can tell (as well as those farangs who are fluent) ( and I can tell someone who says "falang" is probably NOT) if you are fluent if you open your mouth too long. I consider myself fluent but find that if I am dissaitisfied or offended in someones behaviour it merely takes a word or two in their direction to put them on their back foot and have them turning away with the usual embarassed giggle and usually an apology. If someone crowds me out or cuts me off - in a word... "No Manners!" (เสียมารยาท) and they backoff real quick. Learn the right thing to say - how to say it - and you will get your point across quite well.

Learn to speak Thai as it should be spoken and you will pick up the 'proper' mannerisms and the culture with it.

[h90]

There have been what I call “moments” when I would have given

A lot to be totally fluent in the Thai language, just to be able to

Tell the person in front of me, who has given bad service, or told an out right lie Etc,

just what I think of them...

I think you get my meaning, this is not meant as a criticism, just an observation

And a personal comment, I am trying to learn Thai, but and here’s the point of my post, which is directed to those of us who cannot speak perfect Thai, if you could

Do you think it would get you into big trouble, being able to vent your thoughts

To the person who has in some way made you wish you could speak Thai, My Thai wife is constantly telling me, if I could speak perfect Thai I would get my self into

Big trouble …? Do you think you would too…?

Mumbo

My wife is always telling things that would bring me in big troubles if I would say that in in German in my homeland.

The thai way of complain?

No good, wrong, fake, you are a buffalo, stupid like dead, dirty animal, the reason why thailand is going down, don't learn nothing and so on......

Thats not in my business vocabular in german

[smartecosse]

i'd have had to leave the country already for personal safety.

[oooooo]

phom ko kho anooyat pai hong nam noi na krap

[oooooo]

learn and live

live and let live

[peter991]

I've been very lucky to have a loving Thai partner to take care of both of us in Thailand. I've asked for some episodes to be translated - when I haven't been happy with the outcome - but his response is 'don't worry, I will handle it.'

My knowledge of the Thai language is fairly woeful - I am not sure how I would have reacted if I knew more - but for me it's a farang smile with my mouth shut.

Peter

[t.s]

well ... if you learn PROPER Thai ... you'll learn what to say and when to say it ... so no trouble.

I have gotten close a couple of times to getting into trouble but it worked out OK ... I knew what to say to be dead assed rude .. in a VERY proper Thai way. In the couple of years since then I don't think I would have taken the risk but thankfully it worked out well.

(and yes ... no vulgarities were said by me!)

edit:

NOTHING embarasses me more than being around guy's that have learned their Thai at a beer bar or in Nana etc and hearing him speak to average Thai folks!

whole heartedly agree. I just cringe.

[Jet Gorgon]

Oh, yikes. I heard a few domestic arguments but nothing bloodcurdling. This is like the tabloid covers.

[Mobi]

and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that.

That then doesn't count for my Thai neighbors in the compound on the right, who beat the shit out of each other at least once a week, while using rather rude language during their arguments. I can remember once how one of them was even stabbed by his cousin.

You obviously live in a rough neighbourhood

[garro]

My Thai isn't fluent but it is fairly reasonable. I have tried over the last few years and now only watch Thai TV and try to read Thai for at least an hour a day. I sometimes wonder if I will ever be fluent, some people seem to have a knack for languages but I don't seem to have it. I must admit I get a bit jealous of the bald headed farang (forget his name) on the telly.

I found that the most dangerous time for speaking Thai is the early intermediate stage. At this stage people are very eager to practice their Thai but are more at risk of saying the wrong thing. The Thais can also overestimate your understanding and see you as being delibrately rude.

I live in a village where a type of passa Issan is spoken and would sometimes use this less formal way of speaking in the wrong situations. Thais usually see this as funny but some people (e.g. the immigration police) don't like it when you keep on replying 'duh' instead of 'krap'.

Nowadays I always try and think before I speak, in English as well as Thai, and I try and avoid saying hurtful things. My previous profession meant that I could be a bit overly assertive (trauma nurse) but I am much better now. I try and not complain about things unless I think it will make a difference. I am more likely to say the wrong thing now only when posting on TV

Edited March 16, 2007 by garro

[steveromagnino]

Since I've only ever heard maybe 3 white people speaking anything close to perfect Thai, and only 1 foreign born among them, I assume my own hopes of ever speaking Thai close to perfectly are probably never going to be realised.

While entirely fluent in the language of insults, I would point out that generally the most cutting insults in any language tend to be astute, polite observation said with a smile. I prefer not to involve family; after all I didn't know their parents so why should I make comments about them?

e.g. typical tourist area, slow in giving me the change, hoping I will leave a tip 'mai benrai, pom tum boon dee gua'...otherwise, politeness beats insults almost everytime.

If there has to be insults, then it is far more cutting using manners than comparing them to buffalo, animals or swearing at them; and far more constructive in causing them to lose face, but in a way that has no repucussions.

I can think of a few times I have escalated things, but the people I mix with would not respond to f&*k and c&*t etc either here or in the western countries I live in. I didn't go to school in poor areas, I don't work with poor people much and my only major contact with uneducated people is in the service industry or when going upcountry to see the land we own and they work on. In general, with such a clear distinction of class, there are no problems; it is obvious who has the power in each of these situations.

The point of the insult is what; to make yourself feel important or to get them to do something or to annoy someone. Usually the second; in which case insults usually fail to work; I already am full of self importance enough already and when I want to do the last, well he who laughs last laughs longest, and I can be very vindictive and hold a grudge as long as is required. I don't need to get myself off with cheap shots showing I cannot control myself.

So in short.... knowing the language isn't what will help you; knowing how to negotiate and handle yourself is fairly independent of language. Little wonder that countries where insulting service is a way of laugh e.g. USA usually find themselves the most stressed coming here.

[Neeranam]

good post Steve.

[Flysiam]

Since I've only ever heard maybe 3 white people speaking anything close to perfect Thai, and only 1 foreign born among them, I assume my own hopes of ever speaking Thai close to perfectly are probably never going to be realised.

While entirely fluent in the language of insults, I would point out that generally the most cutting insults in any language tend to be astute, polite observation said with a smile. I prefer not to involve family; after all I didn't know their parents so why should I make comments about them?

e.g. typical tourist area, slow in giving me the change, hoping I will leave a tip 'mai benrai, pom tum boon dee gua'...otherwise, politeness beats insults almost everytime.

If there has to be insults, then it is far more cutting using manners than comparing them to buffalo, animals or swearing at them; and far more constructive in causing them to lose face, but in a way that has no repucussions.

I can think of a few times I have escalated things, but the people I mix with would not respond to f&*k and c&*t etc either here or in the western countries I live in. I didn't go to school in poor areas, I don't work with poor people much and my only major contact with uneducated people is in the service industry or when going upcountry to see the land we own and they work on. In general, with such a clear distinction of class, there are no problems; it is obvious who has the power in each of these situations.

The point of the insult is what; to make yourself feel important or to get them to do something or to annoy someone. Usually the second; in which case insults usually fail to work; I already am full of self importance enough already and when I want to do the last, well he who laughs last laughs longest, and I can be very vindictive and hold a grudge as long as is required. I don't need to get myself off with cheap shots showing I cannot control myself.

So in short.... knowing the language isn't what will help you; knowing how to negotiate and handle yourself is fairly independent of language. Little wonder that countries where insulting service is a way of laugh e.g. USA usually find themselves the most stressed coming here.

I agree - mostly - but I do think knowing the language is highly effective as well - and if you combine the aforementioned 'politeness' with 'proper' language you win EVERYTIME. I do not subscribe to the idea that using profanity or derogartory terms is proper language. You just lower yorself to their level or lower. Take the high road and use their language and you will come out on top and doubtful you will alienate anyone - except maybe the offending person. Those around will side with you too I am sure.

[Mobi]

I suppose I should add, that I do sometimes 'have a go' at people in Thai, but only when really justified, and almost entirely restricted to my domestics or people who are doing a job for me. And the way that I would do it, is entirely different to the way I would do it in English, and even then, I am acutely aware that the recipients of my anger are probably thinking along the lines of 'stupid farang, to talk to us like that'.

I rarely, if ever, have a go, at a stranger, or even my wife's family. After all these years, I would still feel inadequate in Thai to do the job properly.

Sometimes I would express my anger (in Thai) to my wife, and let her convey the message down the line.

[LoveDaBlues]

and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that.

That then doesn't count for my Thai neighbors in the compound on the right, who beat the shit out of each other at least once a week, while using rather rude language during their arguments. I can remember once how one of them was even stabbed by his cousin.

Sounds like a "peachy" neighborhood.

[andook]

I may be wrong, but my guess is that as you learn to speak reasonable Thai, you have to start to think the way Thais do and express yourself the way Thais do, and in some respects you have to learn and immerse yourself in the culture. If you don't do this, you will never be able to converse properly. In a great many instances there is no exact translation from English to Thai, (as there would be from one European language to another), and as you start to understand this and translate/speak properly, you will find your desire to 'have a go at people' or speak rudely to them in Thai will dissipate, as it is just not part of normal Thai behaviour, as it may be in the west.

And if you do this, then you will find that you won't want to say the things in Thai that you used to want to say in English, and that you will more laid back and careful in your choice of language - as it is part of the culture to do that. Sure you will still get angry, and sometimes still say angry things, but for the most part, my guess is that if you can really speak Thai to any degree of fluency, you will start to do it the Thai way.

Any thoughts on this from the experts?

I'm no expert, but I thought you explained that quite eloquently enough.

As your fluency in the language increases so the frustration levels decrease proportionately also. A bit like the karate Dan who achieves the discipline required for black belt, suddenly finds he doesn't need to go around punching people.

You don't need to vent your spleen when polite and correct coversation precludes the need to do so.

[steveromagnino]

As your fluency in the language increases so the frustration levels decrease proportionately also. A bit like the karate Dan who achieves the discipline required for black belt, suddenly finds he doesn't need to go around punching people.

You don't need to vent your spleen when polite and correct coversation precludes the need to do so.

Absolutely.

I am still, however, at the level of wax on wax off daniel san.

Learning how to control yourself is a major skill in itself that i fight to learn almost everyday. Why should I give some idiot the pleasure of being able to 'press my buttons?' I can press (and pull) my own buttons as required.

I prefer the pulling to the pushing though :-) Practising makes perfect.

As someone once said about Oscar Wilde, he was a practising homosexual, as practice makes perfect.

[GuestHouse]

As a Thai speaker let me give you my top Tip.

When I want to make a complaint, for example when I recently had to complain to Thai airways, I approach to complaint in English.

This has two distinct advantages to me:

1) I have the advantage of language

2) As happened when I complaining to Thai Airways, the staff you are speaking to are very likely to reveal their mistakes/assumptions and BS thinking when they speak Thai to their supervisor colleges.

It's at that time, having gathered and gained the advantage, that I switch to Thai.

But whatever -LEARN EDUCATED THAI... IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL IN SETTING THE ATMOSPHERE OF RESPECT.

Thailand is a class ridden society, play the game and use the rules to your advantage.

[h90]

edit:

NOTHING embarasses me more than being around guy's that have learned their Thai at a beer bar or in Nana etc and hearing him speak to average Thai folks!

My thai is very poor, but as my wife tells, better don't speak thai than speak bar-thai or learn it from the taxi driver. thai people can exactly hear from where you learned it.

It is exactly the same in german language. If I speak in Austria english with a foreigner I don't think anything, but if he speak well german but I hear within 3 words that he only learned it in the sex for sale places, I'll try to get rid of him.