Proof of source of income for retirement ext Jomtien

[Suradit69]

I'm using the Baht 800,000 in the bank method for my Jan 2020 extension so haven't been following recent discussions of the income method, but want to keep the income method as an option in future. Of course I know requirements can change overnight, let alone in a couple of years, but am interested in current rules.  In earlier discussions there was some mention of providing documented proof that the income came from a pension or pensions. More recently posters describing their experience (in particular at Chonburi/Jomtien) have only said they got a 12 month statement from their bank showing monthly international deposits of Baht 65,000 or more. (My embassy no longer issues "income letters).

 

So at least for the time being does Jomtien only require a 12 month Thai bank statement showing monthly international deposits of Baht 65,000 or more made on or about the same date each month?

 

No documents needed showing that pension(s), Social Security or whatever is/are the source?  And does the amount have to be roughly the same each month or is the occasional larger deposit OK?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Sheryl]

You do not have to prove income source and they are not interested in/willing to review foreign financial documents.

 

What you have to prove is that the income was brought in, every month, from abroad. It has been said that one or two IOs are expecting the amounts and transfer dates each month to be similiar, I forget if Jomtien was one of these.

 

The proof the funds came in from abroad must be in a statement from a Thai bank. Be forewarned that transfers made using Transferwise and the like will not always be coded as foreign transfers. And soem banks require lead tiem to prepare the required statement.

 

 

[DrJack54]

I realize I am not addressing your question. Personally if you can afford to lock up 800k in a Thai bank and leave it, then that's a fool prof option. 

The income method as I see it will be open to different imm office interpretation. 

[Suradit69]

9 hours ago, Sheryl said:

You do not have to prove income source and they are not interested in/willing to review foreign financial documents.

 

What you have to prove is that the income was brought in, every month, from abroad. It has been said that one or two IOs are expecting the amounts and transfer dates each month to be similiar, I forget if Jomtien was one of these.

 

The proof the funds came in from abroad must be in a statement from a Thai bank. Be forewarned that transfers made using Transferwise and the like will not always be coded as foreign transfers. And soem banks require lead tiem to prepare the required statement.

 

 

Thanks. I just recalled some people getting into a debate over the meaning of pension."

I use SWIFT transfer and they always appear as foreign exchange deposits.

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

So at least for the time being does Jomtien only require a 12 month Thai bank statement showing monthly international deposits of Baht 65,000 or more made on or about the same date each month?

I realize quoting individual cases is not the best solution but likely that is all you will get. A good friend recently obtained his retirement extension at Jomtiem using income. He had over 12 months of over 65000 baht transfers which was verified with both domestic account statement, and UK source printouts of the transfers and had linked them numerically  to show compliance. They did not need to confirm FTT on the domestic account and the IO accepted this no issues. 

No proof of it being a 'pension'.... 

Edited July 27, 2019 by jacko45k

[Suradit69]

10 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

I realize I am not addressing your question. Personally if you can afford to lock up 800k in a Thai bank and leave it, then that's a fool prof option. 

The income method as I see it will be open to different imm office interpretation. 

I agree which is why I'm switching to the money in the bank method for the next  couple of years at least.

 

If the income method ever becomes somewhat consistently applied (at Jomtien at least), I might consider going back to the income method ... Assuming I live that long.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Suradit69

[bkk6060]

The only question I have for those with the money in the bank is:

What arrangements have you made if you die tomorrow and the money is sitting in that account?

Most I have spoken to about this say-nothing.

It is something to think about if one cares.

Will from home country?

Thai will?

Documents filed with the bank?

Few do any of this.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by bkk6060

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

The only question I have for those with the money in the bank is:

What arrangements have you made if you die tomorrow and the money is sitting in that account?

Most I have spoken to about this say-nothing.

It is something to think about if one cares.

Will from home country?

Thai will?

Documents filed with the bank?

Few do any of this.

Why would you care unless you are trying to offer some kind of service to those who have money in the bank.  I don't believe your post has even the remotest connection to this topic.  

[gk10002000]

FYI today on the local Thai TV, the Thai expats group was interviewing a lady from Bangkok Bank and going over how to use their bank, what foreign transaction code or the internal bank transaction code and a bank letter that is sometimes used.  This monthly transfer really has to be stopped.  It is an  undue burden on expats that costs time and money.  Transactions fees do add up.  Somebody really needs to approach the immigration officials with some sort of average transaction to be allowed, three months worth of funds every 90 days or whatever.

[JHacker]

Quote

You do not have to prove income source and they are not interested in/willing to review foreign financial documents.

What you have to prove is that the income was brought in, every month, from abroad. It has been said that one or two IOs are expecting the amounts and transfer dates each month to be similiar, I forget if Jomtien was one of these.

 

Actually, when I renewed my retirement visa at Jomtien immigration, they asked/demanded documents from my U.S banks showing the funds being deposited into the accounts.

 

I had a statement from Bangkok Bank showing the foreign transfers for the prior year, but they demanded other statements from Bangkok Bank, including one showing the total transferred each month, even though it was already contained in the bank statement! Also, they specified their need for statements from my U.S. banks. They produced a copy of someone else's documents (completely unredacted, of course) showing what they wanted. I printed out statements from the U.S. banks showing social security payments and pension payments being deposited into my U.S accounts, redacted everything I felt was no one's business, and presented those to them.

[JHacker]

Quote

I realize I am not addressing your question. Personally if you can afford to lock up 800k in a Thai bank and leave it, then that's a fool prof option. 

The income method as I see it will be open to different imm office interpretation. 

I guess it doesn't matter to some retirees that the 800,000 Baht is then unavailable for 6 months, and then 400,000 Baht of that original deposit remains unavailable for the balance of the year. Just a thought: if that money was in the stock market, wouldn't it earn much more? Even a relatively safe fund can earn 8% or more.

[yardrunner]

2 hours ago, JHacker said:

I guess it doesn't matter to some retirees that the 800,000 Baht is then unavailable for 6 months, and then 400,000 Baht of that original deposit remains unavailable for the balance of the year. Just a thought: if that money was in the stock market, wouldn't it earn much more? Even a relatively safe fund can earn 8% or more.

or lose 8% or more

[Captain 776]

The money needs to be in a Thai bank.......PERIOD~!!?

[Captain 776]

2 hours ago, JHacker said:

 

Actually, when I renewed my retirement visa at Jomtien immigration, they asked/demanded documents from my U.S banks showing the funds being deposited into the accounts.

 

I had a statement from Bangkok Bank showing the foreign transfers for the prior year, but they demanded other statements from Bangkok Bank, including one showing the total transferred each month, even though it was already contained in the bank statement! Also, they specified their need for statements from my U.S. banks. They produced a copy of someone else's documents (completely unredacted, of course) showing what they wanted. I printed out statements from the U.S. banks showing social security payments and pension payments being deposited into my U.S accounts, redacted everything I felt was no one's business, and presented those to them.

I had letter from Bangkok Bank and my passbook........never asked to see bank book and not ask for anything else.......Chiang Mai

[Captain 776]

Just now, Captain 776 said:

I had letter from Bangkok Bank and my passbook........never asked to see bank book and not ask for anything else.......Chiang Mai

Open a Direct Deposit account in Bangkok Bank N Y City..........have S S and any other pension accounts deposited there...........solves all the problems and no more transfer fees.

Go into your B B here and tell them you want D D account n N Y.........they do everything for you

[Jaxxper]

3 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

 

Will from home country?

Thai will ?

 

My understanding is that you need a will for each probate jurisdiction. Ie assets in Thailand you need a Thai will. Assets in your home ( or any other country) you need a will there.

[Suradit69]

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

The only question I have for those with the money in the bank is:

What arrangements have you made if you die tomorrow and the money is sitting in that account?

Most I have spoken to about this say-nothing.

It is something to think about if one cares.

Will from home country?

Thai will?

Documents filed with the bank?

Few do any of this.

 

Thai will.

[wazzadg44]

Thai will for Thailand assets and will for home country assets.

[Suradit69]

4 hours ago, JHacker said:

 

Actually, when I renewed my retirement visa at Jomtien immigration, they asked/demanded documents from my U.S banks showing the funds being deposited into the accounts.

 

I had a statement from Bangkok Bank showing the foreign transfers for the prior year, but they demanded other statements from Bangkok Bank, including one showing the total transferred each month, even though it was already contained in the bank statement! Also, they specified their need for statements from my U.S. banks. They produced a copy of someone else's documents (completely unredacted, of course) showing what they wanted. I printed out statements from the U.S. banks showing social security payments and pension payments being deposited into my U.S accounts, redacted everything I felt was no one's business, and presented those to them.

That's the sort of inconsistent application of requirements I don't want to have to deal with and why I'll stick with the 800k in the bank method for at least a couple years to see if clarity and simplicity ever become the rule.

 

How recently did you do the extension? I wonder if that was when everyone was unsure how to deal with income method, including Immigrations offices??

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Suradit69

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Jaxxper said:

My understanding is that you need a will for each probate jurisdiction. Ie assets in Thailand you need a Thai will. Assets in your home ( or any other country) you need a will there.

Yes of course . No Thai or US court would process a will dealing with assets and laws of another country regarding probate and disposition of property.

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, Captain 776 said:

Open a Direct Deposit account in Bangkok Bank N Y City..........have S S and any other pension accounts deposited there...........solves all the problems and no more transfer fees.

Go into your B B here and tell them you want D D account n N Y.........they do everything for you

SS now has direct international deposit to Thailand. No need to go through a US bank. Transaction costs are minimal.

 

And the old method of ACH transfer thru Bangkok Bank has become more complicated.

 

 

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

The only question I have for those with the money in the bank is:

What arrangements have you made if you die tomorrow and the money is sitting in that account?

Most I have spoken to about this say-nothing.

It is something to think about if one cares.

Will from home country?

Thai will?

Documents filed with the bank?

Few do any of this.

 

In my case I have a Thai will where the account is specifically listed. This does not avoid the delays and expenses of probate. The Bank would not release the funds without a court order. 

[soisanuk]

16 hours ago, Captain 776 said:

Open a Direct Deposit account in Bangkok Bank N Y City..........have S S and any other pension accounts deposited there...........solves all the problems and no more transfer fees.

Go into your B B here and tell them you want D D account n N Y.........they do everything for you

The Bangkok Bank NY Branch is not a retail bank so you cannot open a deposit account with them. However, if you have a Bangkok Bank account here in Thailand, you can transfer funds from your US bank through the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system used by the US Banking system (the NY branch is part of the system with an ACH number - once set up, you send your transfer to your Thai bank account number using the NY Branch ACH routing number - they then, for a fee, send the funds on to Bangkok Bank HQ and the HQ bank deposits it in your account - if a baht account, HQ converts it to baht for a small fee).   

 

BUT, in the latter part of 2018, things changed.  To set up, you had to use an International ACH transfer (IAT) - which US banks do not offer to retail customers, but some do for commercial accounts.  However, if you had already set up the ACH and were sending domestic ACH transfers, you could continue (April 1, 2019 was supposed to be the deadline, but the NY Branch is still sending domestic ACH transfers as of July and based on another Thaivisa thread, it appears they will continue to do so with the new deadline being the end of August for personal transfers and end of December for Direct Deposits for Gov't pensions.  After which, they will reject domestic ACH transfers and only accept those in IAT format).

 

As to using 65k per month deposit at Pattaya Immigration in Jomtien, I did my extension renewal in June.  I also had Bangkok Bank Statements for the past 12 months that had been certified by the Bank which was not acceptable (apparently, they don't want to wade through all the transactions to find the foreign deposits to the account - coded FTT.  The Immigration lady I dealt with gave me an example of the type of letter they wanted, which lists only the foreign deposits to the account for the past 12 months (and as mentioned, it was not redacted) - she also said I should go to the Bangkok Branch where I opened the account to get the letter as other Branches could not provide it for the 12 months.  My Branch did provide the letter, but first had to print out "credit advices" for each deposit (fee 500 baht), then they prepared the letter listing the deposits (fee 100 baht) - this took a little over an hour, but I had a lot of foreign source deposits for that period.

 

I was not asked for copies of my US Bank statements showing my pension deposits, but I did provide an "Annuity Statement" from my pension provider - so it may be they only want your home country bank statements showing pension deposits if you don't have a documents from your pension source showing the monthly amount you receive.  They also wanted a second letter from my bank verifying the account (this the same letter required of those using the 800k on deposit method). I also provided the identity page from my bank passbook and pages showing transactions for the past 12 months.

Edited July 28, 2019 by soisanuk

[BertM]

3 hours ago, jacko45k said:

  19 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

The only question I have for those with the money in the bank is:

What arrangements have you made if you die tomorrow and the money is sitting in that account?

Most I have spoken to about this say-nothing.

It is something to think about if one cares.

Will from home country?

Thai will?

This is what I have set up. My Thai wife has my KBank & Citibank Apps on her phone, so she can transfer money from my accounts to our joint account or her individual account if something happens to me. She already does it now quite often and knowing her she will have that money moved to her accounts before my body is cold, LOL. She also has the ATM cards. I have a "Will" for my assets in the US which will go thru probate which may take a few mths before she gets her share. So, she will have immediate access to the monies in the Thai banks while she waits for her share of my assets in the US.

Edited July 28, 2019 by BertM

[Martyp]

19 hours ago, JHacker said:

I guess it doesn't matter to some retirees that the 800,000 Baht is then unavailable for 6 months, and then 400,000 Baht of that original deposit remains unavailable for the balance of the year. Just a thought: if that money was in the stock market, wouldn't it earn much more? Even a relatively safe fund can earn 8% or more.

I don’t mind that my banked money is unavailable. It is not sitting there doing nothing. It is buying me a a trouble free retirement in Thailand. 

[BertM]

40 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I don’t mind that my banked money is unavailable. It is not sitting there doing nothing. It is buying me a trouble free retirement in Thailand. 

I agree with you... money well spent for a nice life in paradise. For some, it's only a small % (in my case, less than 1%) of their assets, so it's not a big loss. And, this year, I will be switching to extension based on marriage, so will only have to lock up 400k for about 3 - 4 mths. I do what's needed, pay what's required then go on with living my life. I don't give it a second thought. I'm much happier not dwelling on the negative stuff...

Edited July 28, 2019 by BertM

[Pilotman]

On 7/27/2019 at 8:37 AM, Suradit69 said:

Thanks. I just recalled some people getting into a debate over the meaning of pension."

I use SWIFT transfer and they always appear as foreign exchange deposits.

But in comparison to Tranferwise, at least with my UK bank, a swift transfer is a very expensive way to transfer money. 

[Pilotman]

My problem with the income method, as I understand the rule, is that although the amount deposited in my UK bank in pensions etc , is a more than the 65,000 required, in comes in three tranches and is not deposited on the say day of each month. So its the 800K locked up for me.  

[Roy Baht]

20 hours ago, JHacker said:

I guess it doesn't matter to some retirees that the 800,000 Baht is then unavailable for 6 months, and then 400,000 Baht of that original deposit remains unavailable for the balance of the year. Just a thought: if that money was in the stock market, wouldn't it earn much more? Even a relatively safe fund can earn 8% or more.

I think the Thai Immigration view is that if you can't afford to leave that much money here, earning little or no interest, then you can't afford to live here. They also want you to have readily available cash here in case of an emergency. For example, Thai hospitals have complained about debts accrued from foreign patients lacking cash.

[BertM]

 

1 hour ago, Martyp said:

  21 hours ago, JHacker said:

I guess it doesn't matter to some retirees that the 800,000 Baht is then unavailable for 6 months, and then 400,000 Baht of that original deposit remains unavailable for the balance of the year. Just a thought: if that money was in the stock market, wouldn't it earn much more? Even a relatively safe fund can earn 8% or more. 

If someone wants to keep their money in the stock market, they can, it's up to them. They can do the 65k monthly xfer method instead. For some, the 400k locked up all year is only a small % of their assets, so it's not a big deal. I do what's needed, pay what's required and then I go on with my life. I don't give it a second thought.

Edited July 28, 2019 by BertM