Well Pump Recommendations

[Thainesss]

I have a 2 Inch well with a Jet Pump and "packer" kit. 

 

The pump is a LSC - 251EA

 

http://www.luckystar.co.th/product_detail.php?id=51

 

http://www.luckystar.co.th/product_detail.php?id=353

 

My issue is that due to the depth of the bore, and the small diameter of the well, and type of pump Im using. The well pump alone does not produce enough volume and pressure to use it by itself, directly to the house. I have to have a secondary water storage tank and secondary automatic pressure pump. I use alot of water at the house because of a small fish "pond" and a garden. The current system maintains all of this just fine, never run out of water. 

 

The problem is power consumption. When I take a shower for example, my automatic pump runs to feed the shower, the well pump starts up after the shower starts to keep the tank full, and my 6000w hot water shower kicks on all around the same time pulling about 35-40 Amps. Now, add in an aircon or 2 running and a microwave im getting damn close to my 63A limit. 

 

Even then I have no issue sustaining this and don't trip breakers. 

 

Whats bugging me is the ungodly amount of power im using to sustain all this, and the electricity bills. It's just unnecessary. 

 

In the states we typically use 4" or 6" wells with submersible pumps and a pressure tank. A 4" well and submersible pump can sustain a home and very large yard no problem and uses only one pump and at a much lower power consumption rate. 

 

I see 2 options:

 

First - see if anyone knows of either a jet pump or submersible pump that is compatible with a 2" well that can provide enough pump head to directly feed the home without the use of an additional storage tank and pressure pump. Guesstimate 25k baht. 

 

Second - Drill out my existing well to 4" or 6" and replicate what I already know will work using submersible pump & pressure tank. Guesstimate 80k baht and completely destroying my garden. 

 

Any ideas are welcome in here. 

[Artisi]

From a practical point, changing to a larger diameter well and suitable  pump will be more economical. 

 

Why? 

Your jet pump will have overall poor hydraulic efficiency and you will remove one pump from the system, 

A single deep well pump to a pressure tank will be more efficient, by how much without doing the calculations I really wouldn't expect huge savings in your power bill, plus the pay-back period of a larger well, pump, installation costs / electrics might never be reclaimed. 

[Thainesss]

6 hours ago, Artisi said:

From a practical point, changing to a larger diameter well and suitable  pump will be more economical. 

 

Why? 

Your jet pump will have overall poor hydraulic efficiency and you will remove one pump from the system, 

A single deep well pump to a pressure tank will be more efficient, by how much without doing the calculations I really wouldn't expect huge savings in your power bill, plus the pay-back period of a larger well, pump, installation costs / electrics might never be reclaimed. 

 

I know. 

 

You're kind of repeating what I already knew. I guess I was hoping that there was a pump out there that was compatible with a 2" well that would solve my problem without having to drill out my existing well and destroying my yard. 

 

Its bugging me that my power bill is almost what it was in the states but for what amounts to less usage/coverage.  

[carlyai]

If you try and look at it from other angles, there could be ways to save money.

1. If you leave the ballcock there as a backup safety measure, and install a float switch in the tank. (2 really, the second one to sense if the tank is running empty.)

So now your jet pump is controlled by your ballcock and it switches on and off repeatedly. Not sure how large your tank is (2000..3000 L), but adjust your float switch to only fill the tank when it's quarter full or less. The float switch in the tank will only turn on the pump when the water level in the tank is quarter full. This may give you a small saving, and extend the life of the pump by decreasing the pump duty cycle.

2. Install drip irrigation from the tank before the house pump. With gravity feed from the tank and some control valves you could irrigate. I haven't tried this, but a friend drip feeds hundreds of plants from one tap.

3. Shower with a friend or two, again reducing you electricity charge.

Sometime you may be thankfull that you have a tank full of water when your jet pump has a problem. I have 2 and every now and then a small rock or something gets stuck in the valve at the bottom, it won't close, all the water leakes out and the pump won't prime.
(A trick for that is to grab the pump and rock it back and forward and hope the vhange in water flow will clear the blockage.)

You probably know all this, but with the Lucky Star pumps you need to mount them off the ground so there is air circulation underneath so the underside of the tank doesn't rust and develop leaks. Hasn't happened to me yet, read it on posts a while ago.

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[Thainesss]

8 minutes ago, carlyai said:

1. If you leave the ballcock there as a backup safety measure, and install a float switch in the tank. (2 really, the second one to sense if the tank is running empty.)

 

The Jet pump is controlled electrically by a float switch, not a ballcock. Unfortunately while the jet pump does not produce enough water volume at my required pressure, it does build too much pressure over time when pumping against a closed ballcock that it forces it open. 

 

12 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Not sure how large your tank is (2000..3000 L), but adjust your float switch to only fill the tank when it's quarter full or less. The float switch in the tank will only turn on the pump when the water level in the tank is quarter full. This may give you a small saving, and extend the life of the pump by decreasing the pump duty cycle.

 

Ive got a stainless 1000l tank, and I originally had the float switch set to start filling the tank back up at about halfway. That worked ok when there was enough rain but when I have to water the garden or top up the fish "pond" (its more like an outdoor tank, its pretty small) I run out of water quite fast. So now I keep the tank topped up at all times. Not ideal, but I need the reserve. An open 1/2" valve runs out more water than the jet pump can provide.

 

33 minutes ago, carlyai said:

3. Shower with a friend or two, again reducing you electricity charge.

 

I know there are small workarounds and band-aids but on the whole it won't do much. Ive actually got alot of automatic watering parts and controllers that ive resisted using because everything is so inefficient. Im kinda at the point where I don't want to spend any money at all on the water system because I could use that money to actually fix the issue rather than throwing money at problem trying to make it a little better. 

 

I could buy a bigger tank and separate the electrical load but everything is still gonna run, now or later, and thus the bill will be pretty much the same. 

[Artisi]

Irrespective of what you do or how you arrange the pump timing etc, it comes down to the amount of water pumped to what pressure and the overall efficiency of the pump system. You get nothing for free. 

[alacrity]

Why not remove the ballcock. Just rely on the float switch (which controls the jet pump) and possibly add bigger storage tank.

 

Not sure of current prices to bore a new hole and the pumps aren't cheap. Above shouldn't cost more than 15-20 THB.

[Thainesss]

4 hours ago, Artisi said:

Irrespective of what you do or how you arrange the pump timing etc, it comes down to the amount of water pumped to what pressure and the overall efficiency of the pump system. You get nothing for free. 

 

So I guess there isn't a 2" pump that would work? I dont mind spending money at all if it would work. We used 4" franklin submersible pumps at home and ive scoured the internet and cant find a 2" pump that would come close to even their lower grade units.

 

4 hours ago, alacrity said:

Why not remove the ballcock. Just rely on the float switch (which controls the jet pump) and possibly add bigger storage tank.

 

Not using a ballcock, and even getting a bigger storage tank I would still run the pump the same because the water consumption is the same. Only be saving a small fraction on the start-stop. 

[bankruatsteve]

I take it you are some place that doesn't (cannot?) get "city" supplied water.  Seems strange for that as even the somewhat remote places around here get supplied.  Maybe check with your head-man as to plans for that.  Maybe add a second tank just for the pond and garden and using rain collection to help.  Raise up a bit and use drip watering.  This time of year unheated showers are refreshing for me and will take a big chunk out of your bill if you use the monster heater a lot.

[Thainesss]

7 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I take it you are some place that doesn't (cannot?) get "city" supplied water.  Seems strange for that as even the somewhat remote places around here get supplied. 

 

I should have noted this, but I do have city water, and I would much rather use it as its cleaner. Problem is that it goes out for days, so I still have to use the well. That would save money electrically but would be offset by having to buy a second storage tank, and re-doing everything so that the automatic pump disconnects when the water level gets too low. I might just go this route honestly. 

 

I was kind of hoping that there was a magical 2" pump that would allow me to get rid of all this mess, tanks, PVC, etc and have a single clean unit. 

 

14 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

This time of year unheated showers are refreshing for me and will take a big chunk out of your bill if you use the monster heater a lot.

 

I dont use it much other than in the morning and only about half power. Full blast is for the 'cold' season when the water in the tank is frigid in the AM. 

[bankruatsteve]

19 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

I should have noted this, but I do have city water, and I would much rather use it as its cleaner. Problem is that it goes out for days, so I still have to use the well. That would save money electrically but would be offset by having to buy a second storage tank, and re-doing everything so that the automatic pump disconnects when the water level gets too low. I might just go this route honestly. 

If you don't have the mains hooked up to fill your storage tank you should do that (with NRV for when pump is active).  I don't know what you would have to re-do for that?  In our case the mains are often dry during the day but come on at night so that our tank always gets topped up.  You might be surprised.

[Thainesss]

15 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

If you don't have the mains hooked up to fill your storage tank you should do that (with NRV for when pump is active).  I don't know what you would have to re-do for that?  In our case the mains are often dry during the day but come on at night so that our tank always gets topped up.  You might be surprised.

 

I originally had it hooked up like that, used a ballcock to control the mains flow keeping the tank topped up, but like I said the water would go out for days, and I would run out of water causing the automatic pump to run until it overheated. I got tired of this happening so I put the tank on the well. 

 

The ballcock doesn't control the Jet pump, I had to add a float switch to do that. 

 

So I would need to re-do it in such a way that the jet pump is electrically controlled but only comes on when the level gets really low, while at the same time stopping the automatic pump from running so it doesn't overheat. I know I can do this with a combination of check valves and switches, but still need to re-do most of it and buy a secondary tank. 

 

Basically ive gone from a jet pump directly to the house, then tank/mains/auto pump, then tank/jet pump/auto pump. 

 

And another issue is that when the mains do stop and I need the well pump, it has lost its prime. And by that time I'm completely out of water to prime the stupid thing again. I know theres ways around it, but Im also gone alot and trying to explain to the wife how to get this crap working again is not the easiest. 

[bankruatsteve]

OK.  I commiserate with your situation as there doesn't seem to be an easy solution.  Not trying to dispute your understanding of your system but it seems that it couldn't hurt to re-connect the mains through the ballcock and leave your jet pump hookup as is.  Again, most areas will have the mains going at off hours even though it seems like out for days.  Cheers.

[Thainesss]

13 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Not trying to dispute your understanding of your system but it seems that it couldn't hurt to re-connect the mains through the ballcock and leave your jet pump hookup as is.

 

I guess I could do that. Set the float switch low in the tank so the well pump only kicks on when its really low, while using mains & ballcock to stay topped up. 

 

Problem still remains that the pump loses prime if left for a week or 2 though. I think I could relatively cheaply work around that by setting the cut in and cut out of the pump switch to something really low like 15psi off and 10psi on and use a mechanical valve, so the jet pump piping stays pressurized when not in use, compared to it just being switched off. 

[bankruatsteve]

8 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

Problem still remains that the pump loses prime if left for a week or 2 though. I think I could relatively cheaply work around that by setting the cut in and cut out of the pump switch to something really low like 15psi off and 10psi on and use a mechanical valve, so the jet pump piping stays pressurized when not in use, compared to it just being switched off. 

I bought a self-priming jet pump a couple years ago (original crapped out) and that seems to work as I've never had to prime it.  It also shuts off when pressure is reached (taps off).  Got it from the local dealer for about B4000 a no-name China model.

[carlyai]

We've been away for a couple of months and the house rear jet pump didn't need to be primed.

Just went and checked the irrigation jet pump and it worked straight away. No need for priming.

You might have something stuck in the footer valve or a leak.

This is my irrigation setup, not very pretty and made from leftover bits.



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[carlyai]

My pump output, before I installed the tank was a very large flow rate, that I had to throttle back as it depleted the water chamber I was in.





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[Artisi]

Thainess:

is the jet pump a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?

What is the water depth in your well?

how much water do you pump each day? 

 

[carlyai]

Thainess:
is the jet pump a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?
What is the water depth in your well?
how much water do you pump each day? 
 

Hi,
2 pipe, Jet head is about 14 m at the moment, results are somewhere in the house.

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[carlyai]

'how much water do you pump each day'

I'll be pumping (when I get it all set up) from the tank to about 3 zones, so about an hour in the morning and evenings (20 min per zone). I started a few years ago using an online irrigation design tutorial (which thankfully I downloaded as it's gone now.) But haven't got the final figures for daily water use as yet as my design changes.

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[Thainesss]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

Thainess:

is the jet pump a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?

What is the water depth in your well?

how much water do you pump each day? 

 

 

Its a 2" bore with a "packer" kit, so 1 pipe. The jet for the 2 pipe kit would never fit in a 2" bore. 

 

No idea about the depth, well was included with the house we bought, but if I had to guess it would be towards the end of its effective range. I get water, but not much flow or pressure unless you close all the valves and let it run for 7-8 minutes. Open the valve up again and theres a burst of pressure then a low flow. 

 

Daily water - I have no real idea. Dont really keep up with it. 

 

I could tell you what pressure and flow I would need, but no idea about current consumption. 

[carlyai]

Thainess:
is the jet pump a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?
What is the water depth in your well?
how much water do you pump each day? 
 

Sorry, will have to get used to posting again.
Thainess: not carlyai says it all.


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[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Thainesss said:

 

Its a 2" bore with a "packer" kit, so 1 pipe. The jet for the 2 pipe kit would never fit in a 2" bore. 

 

No idea about the depth, well was included with the house we bought, but if I had to guess it would be towards the end of its effective range. I get water, but not much flow or pressure unless you close all the valves and let it run for 7-8 minutes. Open the valve up again and theres a burst of pressure then a low flow. 

 

Daily water - I have no real idea. Dont really keep up with it. 

 

I could tell you what pressure and flow I would need, but no idea about current consumption. 

I was just thinking out loud. 

Your comment "not much flow or pressure" tells me you are over pumping the well or the well is partially blocked. Installing a higher flow pump is a waste of time. 

You should throttle back on the pump discharge to even out the flow, it will be better for the pump and the well. 

If it works and it is manageable leave it alone unless you want to redrill and install  a new system? 

[Thainesss]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

I was just thinking out loud. 

Your comment "not much flow or pressure" tells me you are over pumping the well or the well is partially blocked. Installing a higher flow pump is a waste of time. 

You should throttle back on the pump discharge to even out the flow, it will be better for the pump and the well. 

If it works and it is manageable leave it alone unless you want to redrill and install  a new system? 

 

Thats the one thing I’m confident is not happening. If it was I would see improvement in the rainy season. There is never any change in flow, always the same, hot, dry, wet. 

 

My opinion is that the well is too deep and this little pump does not produce enough head @ the needed pressure. I’ve got it set to cut out at 45 psi and cut in at 35 psi. If I fully open a half inch valve all the way the pressure drops down, pump kicks on, and maintains around 18-20 psi until I close the valve. It then slowly creeps back up to 45 and cuts out. Does this all the time. Never changed. Trying to take a shower with 18psi is very unfulfilling. If I reduce the discharge, of course my pressure will rise a little, but it’s already 1/2” at point of use. 

 

It could be clogged somewhere, but the well was new when I got the house. I also had to have the exact same setup at my old house (2km away) but the well was 4”. Same problem. Needed a storage tank because I couldn’t maintain 30-35 psi with a single valve open. 

[alacrity]

18 hours ago, Thainesss said:

Not using a ballcock, and even getting a bigger storage tank I would still run the pump the same because the water consumption is the same. Only be saving a small fraction on the start-stop. 

Offset that by the comparative cost of a re-bore and new well-pump. A reduction of cumulative inrush current will also reduce cost. But not a lot.

Your post #3 said it all really. 

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Thainesss said:

 

Thats the one thing I’m confident is not happening. If it was I would see improvement in the rainy season. There is never any change in flow, always the same, hot, dry, wet. 

 

My opinion is that the well is too deep and this little pump does not produce enough head @ the needed pressure. I’ve got it set to cut out at 45 psi and cut in at 35 psi. If I fully open a half inch valve all the way the pressure drops down, pump kicks on, and maintains around 18-20 psi until I close the valve. It then slowly creeps back up to 45 and cuts out. Does this all the time. Never changed. Trying to take a shower with 18psi is very unfulfilling. If I reduce the discharge, of course my pressure will rise a little, but it’s already 1/2” at point of use. 

 

It could be clogged somewhere, but the well was new when I got the house. I also had to have the exact same setup at my old house (2km away) but the well was 4”. Same problem. Needed a storage tank because I couldn’t maintain 30-35 psi with a single valve open. 

Here is some light reading for you on inflow to water wells.

 

http://www.hwe.org.ps/Education/Birzeit/GroundwaterEngineering/Chapter 5 - Groundwater Well Design.pdf

[tjo o tjim]

Seems like you should just go for a larger storage tank so you can use city water more often, and also gain some natural head pressure with the higher water level.  Then adjust the jet pump controls so you only engage manually and run a higher cycle time when city water has been depleted.