Pro-EU Liberal Democrats win parliamentary seat from UK PM Johnson's Conservatives

[stephenterry]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I know what the government's and parliament's responsibilities are. 

 

The WA is BRINO, even without considering the implications of the Irish backstop and it could keep the UK under ECJ/EU jurisdiction indefinitely. The WA also commits the UK to the EU future defence plans. It does not give back exclusive fishing to us. The PD is linked to the WA in parts and these parts may legally force the UK to accept a customs union but not an FTA in any form of that that exists today. 

 

Overall, the WA is bad for the UK and I see it as the UK government's responsibility to reject it and try for an alternative. Article 50 actually puts the onus on the EU to 'negotiate and conclude an agreement' but it seems they need to put in a bit more work on that. If the EU were to open up for sensible negotiations, then I would say that would be worth another extension.

 

   

While I am not in accord with your opinions, there is no doubt the EU is not just going away, as many leavers would otherwise expect. The UK could never completely untie itself - or would even want to disengage from trade deals with EU countries - which could include partitioning of fishing rights, IMO.

 

As for defence, I'm pro EU defence plans, sorry, it's paramount for the UK to maintain and improve its defence systems - and that won't happen by splitting with the EU, because our services have been decimated over the years. 

 

I'm also in favour of the Customs Union being maintained until alternative technology is put in place to manage land borders. Otherwise major disruption at UK ports is inevitable. 

 

As for ECJ jurisdiction, I doubt continuation would adversely affect the UK's legal system - maybe even obstruct the UK from reinstating the death penalty as was once proposed by the new right-wing Home Secretary.  

 

Overall, the WAG is the best we have or would ever have. Take it or face a GE.

 

 

  

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

While I am not in accord with your opinions, there is no doubt the EU is not just going away, as many leavers would otherwise expect. The UK could never completely untie itself - or would even want to disengage from trade deals with EU countries - which could include partitioning of fishing rights, IMO.

 

As for defence, I'm pro EU defence plans, sorry, it's paramount for the UK to maintain and improve its defence systems - and that won't happen by splitting with the EU, because our services have been decimated over the years. 

 

I'm also in favour of the Customs Union being maintained until alternative technology is put in place to manage land borders. Otherwise major disruption at UK ports is inevitable. 

 

As for ECJ jurisdiction, I doubt continuation would adversely affect the UK's legal system - maybe even obstruct the UK from reinstating the death penalty as was once proposed by the new right-wing Home Secretary.  

 

Overall, the WAG is the best we have or would ever have. Take it or face a GE.

 

 

  

The fundamental problem with the WAG and Brexit, is that while Leave was voted on by people from across the political spectrum, Brexit was managed by a rightwing, and now even more rightwing Government. 

 

A far better approach would have been to form a coalition across parties to manage Brexit, ensuring the end result is not simply what the rightwing want it to be. 

 

That Theresa May chose not to go down that path, despite her party failing to get a majority at the election she called is, to my mind, the single biggest mistake she made. 

 

Now all that is left is the Brexit zealots of the Tory party trying to force a no deal Brexit despite the obvious problem that the Tories only have a one seat majority.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I know what the government's and parliament's responsibilities are. 

 

The WA is BRINO, even without considering the implications of the Irish backstop and it could keep the UK under ECJ/EU jurisdiction indefinitely. The WA also commits the UK to the EU future defence plans. It does not give back exclusive fishing to us. The PD is linked to the WA in parts and these parts may legally force the UK to accept a customs union but not an FTA in any form of that that exists today. 

 

Overall, the WA is bad for the UK and I see it as the UK government's responsibility to reject it and try for an alternative. Article 50 actually puts the onus on the EU to 'negotiate and conclude an agreement' but it seems they need to put in a bit more work on that. If the EU were to open up for sensible negotiations, then I would say that would be worth another extension.

 

   

It is not in the purview of either the EU or the British Government to return fishing  rights to the UK that were sold to foreigners by the former British owners of those fishing rights. 

 

The British Government  could of course pass a law to seize those 'privately owned' rights, but that would put into question  the value of property and contract rights under UK law and within the wider UK economy. Not something  any  rightwing government is ever going to risk. 

 

 

[evadgib]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It is not in the purview of either the EU or the British Government to return fishing  rights to the UK that were sold to foreigners by the former British owners of those fishing rights. 

 

The British Government  could of course pass a law to seize those 'privately owned' rights, but that would put into question  the value of property and contract rights under UK law and within the wider UK economy. Not something  any  rightwing government is ever going to risk. 

I'd be interested to see the small print of anything supporting this.

[nauseus]

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The fundamental problem with the WAG and Brexit, is that while Leave was voted on by people from across the political spectrum, Brexit was managed by a rightwing, and now even more rightwing Government. 

 

A far better approach would have been to form a coalition across parties to manage Brexit, ensuring the end result is not simply what the rightwing want it to be. 

 

That Theresa May chose not to go down that path, despite her party failing to get a majority at the election she called is, to my mind, the single biggest mistake she made. 

 

Now all that is left is the Brexit zealots of the Tory party trying to force a no deal Brexit despite the obvious problem that the Tories only have a one seat majority.

 

 

Well at least we can agree that Brexit has been mismanaged so far. But that's about all.

[nauseus]

53 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

While I am not in accord with your opinions, there is no doubt the EU is not just going away, as many leavers would otherwise expect. The UK could never completely untie itself - or would even want to disengage from trade deals with EU countries - which could include partitioning of fishing rights, IMO.

 

As for defence, I'm pro EU defence plans, sorry, it's paramount for the UK to maintain and improve its defence systems - and that won't happen by splitting with the EU, because our services have been decimated over the years. 

 

I'm also in favour of the Customs Union being maintained until alternative technology is put in place to manage land borders. Otherwise major disruption at UK ports is inevitable. 

 

As for ECJ jurisdiction, I doubt continuation would adversely affect the UK's legal system - maybe even obstruct the UK from reinstating the death penalty as was once proposed by the new right-wing Home Secretary.  

 

Overall, the WAG is the best we have or would ever have. Take it or face a GE.

 

 

  

And, obviously, I don't share your opinions either. 

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, david555 said:

A nationalization you mean ….

Nope.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Nobody. But it is what will need to happen.

That and laws to manage the number of unicorns wandering around the Green and Pleasant.

[7by7]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:49 AM, nauseus said:

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:31 AM, 7by7 said:

Indeed, just as things have changed since 2016: especially with the full effect of Brexit becoming more apparent. 

 

So your argument for a GE before 2022 applies equally to holding another referendum!! 

I would say instead: "the effect of the Brexit 'negotiations' is becoming partially apparent after the content of the terrible treaty that May proposed was exposed".

 

I'm not sure why you think I am arguing for a GE before 2022? Another referendum is not on my wish list either. Wishful thinking on your part, not mine.  

 Yet again you disparage May's withdrawal agreement, yet still wont say why, still wont say what you, personally, found so objectional in it!!

 

I would say now that the spin and downright lies of the leave campaign have been exposed then the people should be given another chance, a final say.

 

As I have said many times, three choices in a final referendum:

leave with whatever deal Boris negotiates (which will almost certainly be indistinguishable from May's in all but the most minor of points!);

leave with no deal; or 

cancel Article 50 and remain.

 

Voters mark their first and second preferences. If no first preference receives at least 50% of the votes plus 1 then the option with the fewest first choices is eliminated and the second choices on those papers allocated appropriately to determine the winner.

 

Why are you Brexiteers so afraid of that?

 

If, as Brexiteers repeat again and again, the majority of the population still want Brexit, even prefer no deal, then surely even if one of the Brexit options doesn't win in the first round it will in the second?

 

How many Brexiteers would put remain as their second choice?

 

The answer is obvious, you know deep down that now the truth, the reality of Brexit is out, now the spin and lies of the leave campaign have been exposed, many who voted Leave last time will have changed their minds. As is their democratic right.

 

The usual response from Brexiteers to this is "Implement the result of the last referendum before having another." To which any sensible person would respond "The time to correct a mistake is before it's too late." Once we are out of the EU, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to rejoin; certainly not on the advantageous terms we now enjoy.

 

As for not arguing for another GE before 2022, a reminder of how the conversation went:

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:54 AM, nauseus said:

A GE would be a good test for any MPs not properly representing their respective electorates and their manifestos. But when will that happen? Most of them will not risk their seats by resigning, whether leave or remain.

 

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:06 AM, 7by7 said:

It happened in 2017 when Leave constituencies had the opportunity to remove Remain MPs, and vice versa.

 

Did you miss it?

 

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:15 AM, nauseus said:

Er...no. But things have changed rather since then, especially since this ridiculous withdrawal agreement was exposed, along with the declared intentions and/or party-switching of several MPs. Or did you miss it?

If your comments were not an argument in favour of a GE before 2022 because "Things have changed rather since then (2017);" what did you mean?

[7by7]

20 hours ago, kingdong said:

21 hours ago, stevenl said:

Ah, the blame game for after brexit has started. It is the remainers fault if the UK doesn't get a favourable trade.

yes

 How come?

 

When it was Rees-Mogg and his ERG who continuously blocked the deal May's government had negotiated.

 

If your response is that May's deal was rubbish, was BRINO; then perhaps you will break the usual Brexiteer silence and explain your reasons for thinking so.

[7by7]

20 hours ago, vogie said:

There are two politicians that I have shown you, and there will be many many more, are you saying that the whole of the LibDems and Greens would be happy with another leave victory, of course they wouldn't. Let's be honest with one another, you must know and I know that the only people that want another referendum are the losers who didn't want Brexit in the first place.

 

Don't forget those who voted leave and have since discovered the realities of leaving, especially leaving without a deal. Realities which the leave campaign kept hidden, realities which when the remain campaign brought up the leave campaign labelled 'Project Fear.'

 

Deal or no deal, remain is now more popular than either.

 

If there was a referendum tomorrow with the option of accepting the government’s Brexit agreement or remaining in the EU, which would you support?

 

If there was a referendum tomorrow with the option of leaving the EU without a deal or remaining in the EU, which would you support?

 

If you are so certain that Leavers are still in the majority, why are you so scared of giving the people the democratic right to change their mind?

 

I suspect those, and many other, polls provide the answer!

[7by7]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

4 hours ago, david555 said:

A nationalization you mean ….

Nope.

 So what did you mean?

[7by7]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Who made that ridiculous promise?

Nobody. But it is what will need to happen.

 Boris's leave campaign promise of £350 million a week to the NHS post Brexit needs to happen, too.

 

But it won't. 

[nauseus]

45 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Yet again you disparage May's withdrawal agreement, yet still wont say why, still wont say what you, personally, found so objectional in it!!

 

I would say now that the spin and downright lies of the leave campaign have been exposed then the people should be given another chance, a final say.

 

As I have said many times, three choices in a final referendum:

leave with whatever deal Boris negotiates (which will almost certainly be indistinguishable from May's in all but the most minor of points!);

leave with no deal; or 

cancel Article 50 and remain.

 

Voters mark their first and second preferences. If no first preference receives at least 50% of the votes plus 1 then the option with the fewest first choices is eliminated and the second choices on those papers allocated appropriately to determine the winner.

 

Why are you Brexiteers so afraid of that?

 

If, as Brexiteers repeat again and again, the majority of the population still want Brexit, even prefer no deal, then surely even if one of the Brexit options doesn't win in the first round it will in the second?

 

How many Brexiteers would put remain as their second choice?

 

The answer is obvious, you know deep down that now the truth, the reality of Brexit is out, now the spin and lies of the leave campaign have been exposed, many who voted Leave last time will have changed their minds. As is their democratic right.

 

The usual response from Brexiteers to this is "Implement the result of the last referendum before having another." To which any sensible person would respond "The time to correct a mistake is before it's too late." Once we are out of the EU, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to rejoin; certainly not on the advantageous terms we now enjoy.

 

As for not arguing for another GE before 2022, a reminder of how the conversation went:

 

 

If your comments were not an argument in favour of a GE before 2022 because "Things have changed rather since then (2017);" what did you mean?

If you read all my posts, the answers to your questions can be found and are answered, as far as I am concerned. I don't have the time or the patience to go through all this again. Your basic aim, like most other remainers, if for a rerun of a referendum that is already decided, because you lost.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, david555 said:

I liked the word "If" in your reply ...

Yes, I'm sure.

[david555]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Yes, I'm sure.

Must be..., for sure with a majority (for the moment …) from 1 to stay in power , worse than May....a month is long , many could change side

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you read all my posts, the answers to your questions can be found and are answered, as far as I am concerned. I don't have the time or the patience to go through all this again.

Ah, yes; the usual Brexiteer excuse for dodging a direct question!

 

You have never answered me directly when I have asked the question. I don't recall you ever stating you objections to that deal; though i have obviously not read all of your posts. I don't have the time nor patience to trawl through all your posts looking for an answer you claim you have provided.

 

So go on; provide one, just one objection you have to May's deal; surely you don't have to work very hard remembering just one!

 

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your basic aim, like most other remainers, if for a rerun of a referendum that is already decided, because you lost.

Immediately after the referendum I, like many Remainers, accepted the result. Indeed, I posted such many times here.

 

But as the lies and spin of the leave campaign became more and more apparent, i changed my mind and started to support a final referendum as I outlined above.

 

Boris changed his mind from remain to leave.

 

Boris changed his mind from supporting May's deal to not.

 

Why can't the British people be given the same opportunity?

 

If you are right and the majority still support Brexit, indeed support a no deal Brexit, what are you afraid of?

 

The polls, such as those two I linked to above, provide the answer to that!

[Basil B]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:55 AM, vogie said:

You leave poor old Jeremy alone, he's doing a great job. ????????????

Helping the LibDems to win Sheffield, Halam, the next By-election on the horizon.

[evadgib]

36 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Ah, yes; the usual Brexiteer excuse for dodging a direct question!

 

You have never answered me directly when I have asked the question. I don't recall you ever stating you objections to that deal; though i have obviously not read all of your posts. I don't have the time nor patience to trawl through all your posts looking for an answer you claim you have provided.

 

So go on; provide one, just one objection you have to May's deal; surely you don't have to work very hard remembering just one!

 

Immediately after the referendum I, like many Remainers, accepted the result. Indeed, I posted such many times here.

 

But as the lies and spin of the leave campaign became more and more apparent, i changed my mind and started to support a final referendum as I outlined above.

 

Boris changed his mind from remain to leave.

 

Boris changed his mind from supporting May's deal to not.

 

Why can't the British people be given the same opportunity?

 

If you are right and the majority still support Brexit, indeed support a no deal Brexit, what are you afraid of?

 

The polls, such as those two I linked to above, provide the answer to that!

How many 'bring it on's have you had to date 49 and how many more will it take for you to wind your neck in?

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How many 'bring it on's have you had to date 49 and how many more will it take for you to wind your neck in?

You do not have the right to dictate who can and cannot post and what they can and cannot post.

 

Instead of your usual feeble responses like the above, why not shut me up by actually providing some actual answers to what it is about May's deal you dislike so much?

 

Could it be because you don't really have any?

 

Edit:

I'm off for now, so you've plenty of time to think of some.

Edited August 3, 2019 by 7by7

[metisdead]

Some off topic fishing posts and replies have been removed. 

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Immediately after the referendum I, like many Remainers, accepted the result. Indeed, I posted such many times here.

So did I,

 

But when opinion poll after poll, time and time again came out with remain ahead, and no clear consensus for Brexit, soft, hard or no deal, but many of those who voted leave wanted or thought they going to get either soft, hard or no deal and would not accept the other options, or even those who voted leave but really wanted to remain and thought the EU would just rollover and whistle "Rule Britannia" and give us everything we wanted, and we would remain were surprised when the EU did not.

 

The 2015 Referendum was a total farce...

 

Lets just take note of 6 million petioners and revoke A50. hold a GE and if the next government wants we can have another Referendum with a clear mandate for Soft Brexit or Hard Brexit, or No Deal Brexit.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Basil B

[evadgib]

53 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

You do not have the right to dictate who can and cannot post and what they can and cannot post.

 

Instead of your usual feeble responses like the above, why not shut me up by actually providing some actual answers to what it is about May's deal you dislike so much?

 

Could it be because you don't really have any?

 

Edit:

I'm off for now, so you've plenty of time to think of some.

Dictating? I was merely bursting the old 'too scared' balloon before any newbies fell for it.

You have had your answer time and again; the fear you claim exists has been manufactured by one side desperately trying to undermine the other and failing spectacularly.

Edited August 3, 2019 by evadgib

[Becker]

11 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Dictating? I was merely bursting the old 'too scared' balloon before any newbies fell for it.

You have had your answer time and again; the fear you claim exists has been manufactured by one side desperately trying to undermine the other and failing spectacularly.

And how about you answer his question? 

I mean, if I didn't know any better I'd say you're deflecting like crazy. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Becker

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Becker said:

And how about you answer his question? 

Because it is not mandatory to do so, also it is not good TV protocol to keep asking.

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, Becker said:

And how about you answer his question? 

I mean, if I didn't know any better I'd say you're deflecting like crazy. 

How much clearer could it be?

You can be forgiven as a relative newcomer but 49 has no excuse & knows he's been rumbled.

[3NUMBAS]

3 hours ago, david555 said:

Must be..., for sure with a majority (for the moment …) from 1 to stay in power , worse than May....a month is long , many could change side

labour renegades who want leave will keep boris in power despite his 1 majority ..theres about 20 odd hard core labour leavers so hes safe

[Chomper Higgot]

27 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

labour renegades who want leave will keep boris in power despite his 1 majority ..theres about 20 odd hard core labour leavers so hes safe

Except they'd rather be in Government managing Brexit themselves. 

 

[elliss]

4 hours ago, david555 said:

Must be..., for sure with a majority (for the moment …) from 1 to stay in power , worse than May....a month is long , many could change side

 

        Fyi ,   a General Election soon .  Before doom day dawns..

 

             

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by elliss

[david555]

47 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

labour renegades who want leave will keep boris in power despite his 1 majority ..theres about 20 odd hard core labour leavers so hes safe

But what if there are 40 Conservatives rebels renegades ….?