Scots favour independence from United Kingdom, Ashcroft poll shows

[elliss]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:55 AM, White Christmas13 said:

Because without the Scots you can't call it UK anymore

 

        Norther Ireland , soon to follow . 

[elliss]

1 minute ago, elliss said:

         As for Wales , you English , can  keep it ...555

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by elliss

[billd766]

It would be nice, should it happen, that the ground rules are set before the event.

 

1   What question (s) should be asked?

2   Who would be eligible to vote? All Scots worldwide, in the UK or just in Scotland?

3   Only Scots or world wide Scots plus the current population (whatever their nationality) living in Scotland at the time?

4   What age limits are acceptable? 16 and over, younger or older age limits?

5   What should be the minimum % pass? 50% +1, 60%, 65%, 70% or more or less than that?

6   If the referendum should fail when should another attempt be allowed? Once in a lifetime (how many years is that?), after 5, 10, 20 years or longer?

7   What happens if the referendum fails to meet the pass mark?

8   Can the rest of the UK have a vote as to whether the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay in the union?

Something for the Scots and probably all of us need to know before it kicks off.

[johnnybangkok]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

It would be nice, should it happen, that the ground rules are set before the event.

 

1   What question (s) should be asked?

2   Who would be eligible to vote? All Scots worldwide, in the UK or just in Scotland?

3   Only Scots or world wide Scots plus the current population (whatever their nationality) living in Scotland at the time?

4   What age limits are acceptable? 16 and over, younger or older age limits?

5   What should be the minimum % pass? 50% +1, 60%, 65%, 70% or more or less than that?

6   If the referendum should fail when should another attempt be allowed? Once in a lifetime (how many years is that?), after 5, 10, 20 years or longer?

7   What happens if the referendum fails to meet the pass mark?

8   Can the rest of the UK have a vote as to whether the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay in the union?

Something for the Scots and probably all of us need to know before it kicks off.

1   What question (s) should be asked?

Should Scotland remain as part of the UK. Yes or No?

2   Who would be eligible to vote? All Scots worldwide, in the UK or just in Scotland?

All Scots worldwide.

3   Only Scots or world wide Scots plus the current population (whatever their nationality) living in Scotland at the time?

All in Scotland who are eligible to vote

4   What age limits are acceptable? 16 and over, younger or older age limits?

16+

5   What should be the minimum % pass? 50% +1, 60%, 65%, 70% or more or less than that?

60%

6   If the referendum should fail when should another attempt be allowed? Once in a lifetime (how many years is that?), after 5, 10, 20 years or longer?

Never again unless the situation changes so dramatically (i.e. another Brexit scenario or similar) to constitute another vote.

7   What happens if the referendum fails to meet the pass mark?

Then it is null and void and Scotland remains. I would say that a certain percentage of the population has to vote, say 75% for it to be valid.

8   Can the rest of the UK have a vote as to whether the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay in the union?

No.

[damascase]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

It would be nice, should it happen, that the ground rules are set before the event.

 

1   What question (s) should be asked?

2   Who would be eligible to vote? All Scots worldwide, in the UK or just in Scotland?

3   Only Scots or world wide Scots plus the current population (whatever their nationality) living in Scotland at the time?

4   What age limits are acceptable? 16 and over, younger or older age limits?

5   What should be the minimum % pass? 50% +1, 60%, 65%, 70% or more or less than that?

6   If the referendum should fail when should another attempt be allowed? Once in a lifetime (how many years is that?), after 5, 10, 20 years or longer?

7   What happens if the referendum fails to meet the pass mark?

8   Can the rest of the UK have a vote as to whether the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay in the union?

Something for the Scots and probably all of us need to know before it kicks off.

Amazing to see a Brexiteer propose setting these detailed ground rules before the event - if only they had been there with the Brexit referendum the UK might have been in a different situation,

[RuamRudy]

 
Unfortunately just like many people believe the lies and racist xenophobic nonsense from the likes of Gove, Johnson, and Farage, many also believe the lies and racist xenophobic nonsense and promises of shangr la from the Scottish Nationalist Socialist Party.

Can you please show evidence of the SNP's 'racist xenophobic nonsense'?

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[billd766]

1 hour ago, damascase said:

Amazing to see a Brexiteer propose setting these detailed ground rules before the event - if only they had been there with the Brexit referendum the UK might have been in a different situation,

It is amazing to me that none of the Remainers were chasing up David Cameron for issuing such a badly worded and set up referendum.

 

Would the result have been different? Nobody has a clue.

 

Please remind me who actually set it up and if there were any Leavers involved in it.

 

None of you complained before the referendum as you naturally expected to win, and for the last 3 years all you have done is whine about it. How this, that and the other was wrong and we should have another referendum before this one has been completed.

 

And as October 31st gets closer the screaming and whining gets louder.

[RuamRudy]

It almost feels like we have reached the point of no return.

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[RuamRudy]

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[sunnyboy2018]

On 8/5/2019 at 1:28 PM, RuamRudy said:

"Unionists say independence would... cast a vulnerable Scotland into the high seas of global politics and usher in years of financial, economic and political uncertainty."

Whereas remaining in the UK will almost certainly guarantee that these predictions become reality.

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555

[sunnyboy2018]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

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The British relinquished their colonies...with more grace and goodwill than the EU is doing with Brexit. Many of those 51 states you refer have sunk into tribalism,  dictatorship or worse islamic and socialist nut jobs. The people of those countries now want to live in the UK, home of their colonial masters. As for the Scottish,  they can go, followed by an exodus of political manipulators, drunks, beggars and out of tune singers. The Scots will find the euro dictators a lot less accommodating than the English.  The Barton act will go and the Scottish will have to learn English and put their religious hate wars behind them....and help absorb Mad Merkel's Millions.

 

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

The British relinquished their colonies...with more grace and goodwill than the EU is doing with Brexit. Many of those 51 states you refer have sunk into tribalism,  dictatorship or worse islamic and socialist nut jobs. The people of those countries now want to live in the UK, home of their colonial masters. As for the Scottish,  they can go, followed by an exodus of political manipulators, drunks, beggars and out of tune singers. The Scots will find the euro dictators a lot less accommodating than the English.  The Barton act will go and the Scottish will have to learn English and put their religious hate wars behind them....and help absorb Mad Merkel's Millions.

 

Well you say "The death of nuance is the death of freedom" and you couldn't possibly have illustrated it better. Let me know where you intend to bury nuance now you have butchered it, and I'll play a pipe lament at the graveside (Don't worry - it will be out of tune just so you can keep your prejudices intact).

 

There is no Barton act did you mean the "Barnett Formula" by any chance.

 

Have you noticed that not one single country (Not states) has asked to be re-admitted to the British Empire once they left, strange that, you would have thought that people loved being enslaved and having their raw materials ripped off.

 

I was standing at Hyde Park speakers corner one sunny day in the 60s and I heard this guy from Africa complaining about the evils of colonialism. This cockney spoke up and said, 'ere mate, who gave you all your roads?' The African replied "All the roads lead straight to the gold mines".

[jinners]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:38 PM, RuamRudy said:

Independence in the sense to which you are alluding is a fallacy. The world is more connected than ever, so unless you are prepared to accept the isolationism of Chad or North Korea, you must accept that your country will influence and be influenced by other countries to a lesser or greater degree.

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Really!? I didn't allude to anything from stating independence will not be Scotland's despite it's rush to be ruled by Brussels rather than remain in the UK. Facts are what they are. Germany and France are the big players. It will be 2 tier. Scotland will be in the 2nd division and once the tap is turned off from the payments received when Brussels say jump, Sturgeon and her team of anti English oafs will ask 'how high'.

As a citizen of the world but with a Scottish father and welsh/Irish blood, I would prefer the union to remain but there has to come a time when the constant carping and bleating because the original referendum didn't go the way as some planned is enough for the staunchest unionist to say 'enough already, <deleted> off and do whatever it is you want with Angela and her team'.

[RuamRudy]

Really!? I didn't allude to anything from stating independence will not be Scotland's despite it's rush to be ruled by Brussels rather than remain in the UK. Facts are what they are. Germany and France are the big players. It will be 2 tier. Scotland will be in the 2nd division and once the tap is turned off from the payments received when Brussels say jump, Sturgeon and her team of anti English oafs will ask 'how high'.
As a citizen of the world but with a Scottish father and welsh/Irish blood, I would prefer the union to remain but there has to come a time when the constant carping and bleating because the original referendum didn't go the way as some planned is enough for the staunchest unionist to say 'enough already, off and do whatever it is you want with Angela and her team'.

OK.

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[aright]

3 hours ago, jinners said:

Really!? I didn't allude to anything from stating independence will not be Scotland's despite it's rush to be ruled by Brussels rather than remain in the UK. Facts are what they are. Germany and France are the big players. It will be 2 tier. Scotland will be in the 2nd division and once the tap is turned off from the payments received when Brussels say jump, Sturgeon and her team of anti English oafs will ask 'how high'.

As a citizen of the world but with a Scottish father and welsh/Irish blood, I would prefer the union to remain but there has to come a time when the constant carping and bleating because the original referendum didn't go the way as some planned is enough for the staunchest unionist to say 'enough already, <deleted> off and do whatever it is you want with Angela and her team'.

What hasn't been mentioned so far is, if and when, Scotland gain independence they will join a long list of countries waiting to join the EU. Serbia and Bosnia applied in 2009, Macedonia 2004 and Bosnia 2016 and they are still waiting to be accepted.

This could mean Scotland being outside both the UK and EU for an indeterminate period.

 

[Mikisteel]

Be sweet if Brits get chance to relocate to Scotland as part of an exit. 

[RuamRudy]

Be sweet if Brits get chance to relocate to Scotland as part of an exit. 

The Scottish Government has been very clear about the real challenges that Scotland faces as the ageing population and reducing workforce impact the economy. All are welcome.

Ageing population a 'real risk' to Scottish budget

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46114518

As is often misattributed to the great Alasdair Gray, 'Work as if you live in the early days of a better nation'.

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[sandyf]

On 8/7/2019 at 9:58 PM, billd766 said:

It would be nice, should it happen, that the ground rules are set before the event.

 

1   What question (s) should be asked?

2   Who would be eligible to vote? All Scots worldwide, in the UK or just in Scotland?

3   Only Scots or world wide Scots plus the current population (whatever their nationality) living in Scotland at the time?

4   What age limits are acceptable? 16 and over, younger or older age limits?

5   What should be the minimum % pass? 50% +1, 60%, 65%, 70% or more or less than that?

6   If the referendum should fail when should another attempt be allowed? Once in a lifetime (how many years is that?), after 5, 10, 20 years or longer?

7   What happens if the referendum fails to meet the pass mark?

8   Can the rest of the UK have a vote as to whether the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay in the union?

Something for the Scots and probably all of us need to know before it kicks off.

Alex Salmond published a 650 page white paper on his version of Scottish independence. His proposals had more holes than a bar of Aero and I for one would not have supported it, that however does not mean I am not if favour of independence under the right circumstances.

Circumstances change and no political situation should be locked in an unspecified time frame without some form of release. The GFA carries a 7 year interval on a further referendum which if used as a benchmark would mean Scotland would come up again in 2021.

The UK was not given any white paper in respect of the vote so now we have a 101 interpretations of what was intended resulting in absolute chaos. I am fairly certain that the majority of the UK population were only in favour of leaving the EU under the right circumstances, not any circumstances.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, aright said:

What hasn't been mentioned so far is, if and when, Scotland gain independence they will join a long list of countries waiting to join the EU. Serbia and Bosnia applied in 2009, Macedonia 2004 and Bosnia 2016 and they are still waiting to be accepted.

This could mean Scotland being outside both the UK and EU for an indeterminate period.

 

Garbage, there is no queue as you have tried to make out.

Only the mentally challenged would think that applications from Turkey and Scotland would require the same timescale.

Time required is based on the ability to introduce EU legislation, of course you would think to Scotland EU legislation is an alien concept.

[aright]

32 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Garbage, there is no queue as you have tried to make out.

Only the mentally challenged would think that applications from Turkey and Scotland would require the same timescale.

Time required is based on the ability to introduce EU legislation, of course you would think to Scotland EU legislation is an alien concept.

There is no Queue? The Commission disagrees with you! You obviously know better than the EU Commission!

 

European Commission: Independent Scotland would have to join queue for EU membership

An independent Scotland would start life outside the EU and be forced to join the queue for membership, the European Commission’s official representative in the UK has said in a major blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s Brexit strategy.

 

She said there are several countries waiting to become member states, including Montenegro and Serbia, and an independent Scotland “would join that list.” This would mean Scotland being outside both the UK and EU for an indeterminate period.

 

With the SNP’s leadership reviewing their stance on currency, she said a separate Scotland would have to commit in principle to joining the euro to get membership and show how it intended to bring down its huge deficit, which is even larger than Greece’s.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/european-commission-independent-scotland-would-have-join-queue/

Edited August 10, 2019 by aright

[RuamRudy]

There is no Queue? The Commission disagrees with you! You obviously know better than the EU Commission!
 
European Commission: Independent Scotland would have to join queue for EU membership
An independent Scotland would start life outside the EU and be forced to join the queue for membership, the European Commission’s official representative in the UK has said in a major blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s Brexit strategy.
 
She said there are several countries waiting to become member states, including Montenegro and Serbia, and an independent Scotland “would join that list.” This would mean Scotland being outside both the UK and EU for an indeterminate period.
 
With the SNP’s leadership reviewing their stance on currency, she said a separate Scotland would have to commit in principle to joining the euro to get membership and show how it intended to bring down its huge deficit, which is even larger than Greece’s.
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/european-commission-independent-scotland-would-have-join-queue/

Turkey's application to join the eec was lodged in the 1980s and is still in progress. Has no other country joined since then?

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[7by7]

12 minutes ago, aright said:

There is no Queue? The Commission disagrees with you! You obviously know better than the EU Commission!

 

As the spokesperson in the Telegraph article you quoted says: 

15 minutes ago, aright said:

She said there are several countries waiting to become member states, including Montenegro and Serbia, and an independent Scotland “would join that list.”

All states seeking membership are, for want of a better analogy, on a waiting list. As soon as they satisfy the requirements for membership they are granted it; even though there may very well be other states who have been on that list longer than them.

 

As @sandyf says, due to it presently being part of the UK, it is probable that an independent  Scotland would be able to satisfy many of the requirements quicker than others already on that list.

 

BTW, the article you quoted is dated February 2017. Have you nothing more up to date?

[aright]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Turkey's application to join the eec was lodged in the 1980s and is still in progress. Has no other country joined since then?

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My link was with specific reference to Scotland and its position as outlined by the Commission. What's Turkey got to do with it?

Perhaps you could comment on the Commissions position and how mistaken they are.... Who is going to overrule them? Scotland?

[aright]

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

As the spokesperson in the Telegraph article you quoted says: 

All states seeking membership are, for want of a better analogy, on a waiting list. As soon as they satisfy the requirements for membership they are granted it; even though there may very well be other states who have been on that list longer than them.

 

As @sandyf says, due to it presently being part of the UK, it is probable that an independent  Scotland would be able to satisfy many of the requirements quicker than others already on that list.

 

BTW, the article you quoted is dated February 2017. Have you nothing more up to date?

I don't disagree with that but the requirements  they can immediately satisfy are the simple ones, the ones they already live under. The larger deficit and currency problems etc won't be solved quickly which could mean an indeterminate gap between UK and EU membership which means no Barnett Formula or EU subsidies during that period. I have yet to see the plan to cover this eventuality.

 

[Mavideol]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:56 PM, lungbing said:

Once in a generation.  Yeh, right.  Keep asking until SNP get the answer they want.

pretty much what TM and Boris are doing... same same but different

[RuamRudy]

My link was with specific reference to Scotland and its position as outlined by the Commission. What's Turkey got to do with it?
Perhaps you could comment on the Commissions position and how mistaken they are.... Who is going to overrule them? Scotland?

The inference that I and, seemingly, several other people, took from your posts was that the speed of Scotland joining the EU would be affected by the progress made by those countries who have already commenced the process to join. If that was not your point, perhaps you could clarify what you meant?

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[7by7]

22 minutes ago, aright said:

I don't disagree with that but the requirements  they can immediately satisfy are the simple ones, the ones they already live under. The larger deficit and currency problems etc won't be solved quickly which could mean an indeterminate gap between UK and EU membership which means no Barnett Formula or EU subsidies during that period. I have yet to see the plan to cover this eventuality.

 

 Indeed.

 

But your original argument appeared to be, reinforced by your response to @sandyf, that an independent Scotland would have to join a queue behind other states seeking membership and wait until they had been granted it before their application was even considered.

 

Do you now accept that is incorrect?

[aright]

21 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Indeed.

 

But your original argument appeared to be, reinforced by your response to @sandyf, that an independent Scotland would have to join a queue behind other states seeking membership and wait until they had been granted it before their application was even considered.

 

Do you now accept that is incorrect?

 

37 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

The inference that I and, seemingly, several other people, took from your posts was that the speed of Scotland joining the EU would be affected by the progress made by those countries who have already commenced the process to join. If that was not your point, perhaps you could clarify what you meant?

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No I don't accept it. The commissions position couldn't be clearer as shown in my link. How much clearer do you want it? I didn't say Scotland would have to join a queue the Commission said it.

"An independent Scotland would start life outside the EU and be forced to join the queue for membership, the European Commission’s official representative in the UK has said in a major blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s Brexit strategy." 

She said there are several countries waiting to become member states, including Montenegro and Serbia, and an independent Scotland “would join that list.” This would mean Scotland being outside both the UK and EU for an indeterminate period.

The confusion comes regarding queue and list. It is unlikely Scotland will wait 20 years to join and I don't think they will be at the back of the queue but my point is it's not going to happen in 3 weeks and the EU have already said they will not consider an application until Scotland is independent.

How long do you think it will take then and what's the plan to cover the interim period?

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by aright

[aright]

Would Brussels even allow an independent Scotland to join the EU?

But as with so much to do with the European Union, things are nowhere near as simple as that. The European Commission today appeared to rule out any preferential treatment for an independent Scotland.

A country can only join the EU if all the other member states unanimously back its accession.

With independence movements in Catalonia, Flanders, France and Italy, among others, it is highly likely that governments will be unwilling to provide encouragement to regions hoping to breakaway by granting Scotland EU membership.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/25/would-brussels-even-allow-independent-scotland-join-eu/

[Nigel Garvie]

41 minutes ago, aright said:

Would Brussels even allow an independent Scotland to join the EU?

But as with so much to do with the European Union, things are nowhere near as simple as that. The European Commission today appeared to rule out any preferential treatment for an independent Scotland.

A country can only join the EU if all the other member states unanimously back its accession.

With independence movements in Catalonia, Flanders, France and Italy, among others, it is highly likely that governments will be unwilling to provide encouragement to regions hoping to breakaway by granting Scotland EU membership.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/25/would-brussels-even-allow-independent-scotland-join-eu/

For a start could you quote a real newspaper for a change, not a sad Tory party rag,  one that has a huge axe to grind, and the dubious distinction of employing the same lying buffoon twice.

 

It has been made clear, over the past year or so, by a  number of senior EU representatives, that they do not see that Scotland would have any difficulty joining promptly on the simple logical basis that their law on trade standards, human rights, workers rights etc is already the same as EU law, where necessary. 

 

A Senior Spanish minister said just the other day that Scotland joining would cause no problem, so kindly deposit that BS Catalonia fear story to the bucket. Where is France's "Independence movement" BTW, is it quorate?