No-deal Brexit will be stopped, Hammond says

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The party decides on the leader before the GE. The public then vote for a party, knowing that should they win, that leader will become PM. People vote for a given party at a GE for a variety of reasons, a substantial number vote for the party who's leader they want to vecome PM. Often swings the election.

 

A good example is Corbyn, many people believe that he is unelectable, meaning that the general public wouldn't want him as PM and consequently wouldn't vote Labour. The persona and public perception of the party leaders makes a big difference in a GE. People see themselves as votring for the next PM.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the public not voting for the leader of the Conservative Party, yet it does not seem to bother you that the public/electorate voted to leave the EU. It would appear you are very selective in your judgements.

[Handsome Gardener]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 4:11 PM, vogie said:

I have ran a business thanks very much and I do know what it said on the referendum leaflet, it seems you are struggling a tad. Leave or remain, not difficult for most people to understand.

Insulting me will not alter what was written on the said document.

I note 'have' run a business and not 'do' ????‍♂️ 

 

Do you think if it has said leave without a deal causing widespread bedlam and billions of pounds to shore it up - it would have been the same result ?

[DannyCarlton]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the public not voting for the leader of the Conservative Party, yet it does not seem to bother you that the public/electorate voted to leave the EU. It would appear you are very selective in your judgements.

You completely missed my point. You and others have argued that the referendum is binding, "that's democracy". I was merely pointing out that the people's democracy, as opposed to parliamentary democracy, sometimes doesen't get a say in such basic things such as who will be the Prime Minister.

[aright]

6 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The Lib Dems are currently opposing it in nominating Ken Clark or Harriet Harman to take temporary leadership rather than the Leader of the Opposition.

 

Many countries don't have this system. When Merkel steps down as Chancellor, Germany will have a new Chancellor but Merkel will continue to lead her party.

So are we going to vote for Clarke or Harman then?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Handsome Gardener said:

I note 'have' run a business and not 'do' ????‍♂️ 

 

Do you think if it has said leave without a deal causing widespread bedlam and billions of pounds to shore it up - it would have been the same result ?

I knew when to retire, do you, did you mention earlier you have 5 businesses, maybe they are getting you down. Have you ever thought of retiring?

[DannyCarlton]

Just now, aright said:

So are we going to vote for Clarke or Harman then?

Even though I'm a Labour voter, I would vote for Clark, brilliant politician and one of the good guys.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

You completely missed my point. You and others have argued that the referendum is binding, "that's democracy". I was merely pointing out that the people's democracy, as opposed to parliamentary democracy, sometimes doesen't get a say in such basic things such as who will be the Prime Minister.

I know exactly what you are saying and as much as you plead the case for nobody voting for Boris, you are totally ignoring the many that voted to leave the EU, many would say your argument is flawed.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I know exactly what you are saying and as much as you plead the case for nobody voting for Boris, you are totally ignoring the many that voted to leave the EU, many would say your argument is flawed.

And many wouldn't. Shall we hold a referendum on it?

[Jip99]

25 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The party decides on the leader before the GE. The public then vote for a party, knowing that should they win, that leader will become PM. People vote for a given party at a GE for a variety of reasons, a substantial number vote for the party who's leader they want to vecome PM. Often swings the election.

 

A good example is Corbyn, many people believe that he is unelectable, meaning that the general public wouldn't want him as PM and consequently wouldn't vote Labour. The persona and public perception of the party leaders makes a big difference in a GE. People see themselves as votring for the next PM.

 

 

I don't see myself voting for the next PM..... and many things can happen in a 5 year term of office to cause a change.... hence the democratic party process for electing a new leader.

 

 

I agree that I would NEVER vote for Labour with Corbyn at it's helm.......... I can't say that about any other party leader over the last 40 years.

[nauseus]

25 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

It didn't need to be described a advisory all referendums are. No constitutional pressure on parliament. It has precedent.

 

Severe public backlash? Howling brexiteers over egg this point constantly. Do you remember Nigel rallying the Great British Public for his "Jarrow March"? All I can remember from the march was a sad little bunch of drowned rats stood shivering in a field when Our Lord and Saviour, Nigel turned up in his Range Rover to cheer them on. Severe public backlash indeed!

 

From the point of 2 years of meaningful negotiations with the EU, they did take place. Sensible people, even before the referendum, realised that the EU held all the cards and were prepared to use them. Getting a preferential deal for the UK was never going to happen. Personally, I think that May did OK, given the hand she had to play with. I'm convinced that, no matter who sat at the table on the UK's side, would have come back with the same deal.

 

It will be interesting to see how Boris gets on this week. I am willing to bet that once Cummings' spin on the negotiations is removed the deal essentialy won't change.

What has precedent are previous referenda and how they have been respected.

 

Severe public backlash has not occurred, so far, because the referendum result has been nominally accepted, respected and acted upon. The Leave march with Farage marching a few steps was just a demonstration, not any kind of serious backlash.

 

None of us know the detail of any 'negotiations' that may or may not (pardon the pun) have taken place. But it looks like the UK side became docile and obedient rather quickly, with Brexit Ministers sidelined, undermined and/or overruled to the point of two resignations. This 'deal' is so bloody awful that no self-respecting negotiator would dare to come back with it. Without any serious and competent negotiators in charge, it is impossible to say that the UK could not have been offered anything better. 

 

[Handsome Gardener]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I knew when to retire, do you, did you mention earlier you have 5 businesses, maybe they are getting you down. Have you ever thought of retiring?

I think you're confusing me with somebody else ? I work for myself - I choose when I work or don't work - if there's a valuable contract out there (and I know how to read one) I'll take it, if there's not I'll do nothing. Effectively retired in my 30's!

 

Anything else ?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

And many wouldn't. Shall we hold a referendum on it?

We have had a referendum, there is no need for another especially when remainers say when leave won again they would still not respect that one too.

[DannyCarlton]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

We have had a referendum, there is no need for another especially when remainers say when leave won again they would still not respect that one too.

Whoosh! Over your head again Vogie old lad. I was referring to holding a referendum to see if many thought my argument was flawed or many thought that your argument was flawed. Never mind. A joke's never funny when it has to be explained.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

Whoosh! Over your head again Vogie old lad. I was referring to holding a referendum to see if many thought my argument was flawed or many thought that your argument was flawed. Never mind. A joke's never funny when it has to be explained.

 

 

Or sometimes even when it doesn't.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

Whoosh! Over your head again Vogie old lad. I was referring to holding a referendum to see if many thought my argument was flawed or many thought that your argument was flawed. Never mind. A joke's never funny when it has to be explained.

 

 

A good joke needs no explaining, maybe give a clue next time. ????????????

 

[DannyCarlton]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Or sometimes even when it doesn't.

 

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

A good joke needs no explaining, maybe give a clue next time. ????????????

 

We can't all have a sense of humour. Never mind, I'm sure that you guys have other qualities.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

 

We can't all have a sense of humour. Never mind, I'm sure that you guys have other qualities.

One of our greatest qualities is comprehension, like reading sides of buses and ignoring imaginary caveats on the referendum leaflet.

[DannyCarlton]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

One of our greatest qualities is comprehension, like reading sides of buses and ignoring imaginary caveats on the referendum leaflet.

Is that a joke? 555

[vogie]

[Loiner]

14 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Good post. It just shows how duplicitous Tory politicians can be. Same as Boris voting for May's deal.

If we are talking duplicity, let's look again who it is.......... why it's the newly promoted Remainer in Chief and all round turncoat,  ex-chancellor Hammond. Very much duplicitous to his own Tory party, but a true Remainer through and through.

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Is that a joke? 555

Remainers are not noted for their humour. Can we please give them some strong hints when posting, or they begin to froth much more than they normally do. 

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Brexit Secretary signs order to scrap 1972 Brussels Act - ending all EU law in the UK

[3NUMBAS]

On 8/14/2019 at 4:59 AM, Topdoc said:

It's crashing already, just look at the German banks. Commerzbank at all time record lows, down nearly 5% today. 

german bonds have crashed thru the floor

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-bonds/unstoppable-german-bond-yields-slide-to-new-record-lows-idUSKCN1UX0O3

Edited August 18, 2019 by Scott

[beautifulthailand99]

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

Brexit Secretary signs order to scrap 1972 Brussels Act - ending all EU law in the UK

Two stiffies on this thread - though I doubt it somehow !

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, nauseus said:

Sounds like a repeat of the reminer favourite "They didn't know what they were voting for" to me.

"Knowing" would indicate a deliberate decision to inflict hardship on future generations. This "whatever the cost" brexit will have to be paid for in due course, one way or another.

I do not believe that the public "knew" that the cost would spiral out of control but obviously you disagree.

As I have said many times, glad my time is coming to an end.

 

From Bojo's right hand man.

 

The pension age is already set to increase to 67 by 2028 and to 68 by 2046 – but the organisation, co-founded by former Conservative leader and work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan-Smith, wants to see a faster increase.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/state-pension-age-rise-conservatives-think-tank-centre-for-social-justice-a9064071.html

[david555]

 ( Oeps…!! Another thing the Brits are supposed not to know …..by H.M. Government....(why ..? ???? ) I am sure about the future transfers of the 39 billions they go keep you also in the dark.....(until "leaked "....)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/number-10-furious-leak-document-predicting-no-deal-brexit-shortages

No 10 furious at leak of paper predicting shortages after no-deal Brexit

Government figures seek to play down predictions of food, medicine and fuel shortages in leaked document

Operation Yellowhammer: the keypoints  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/no-deal-brexit-key-points-of-operation-yellowhammer-report

 

 

Downing Street has reacted with fury to the leak of an official document predicting that a no-deal Brexit would lead to food, medicine and petrol shortages, with No 10 sources blaming the disclosure on a hostile former minister intent on ruining Boris Johnson’s trip to see EU leaders this week.

The leaked document, detailing preparations under Operation Yellowhammer, argues that the most likely scenario is severe extended delays to medicine supplies and shortages of some fresh foods, combined with price rises, if there is a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.

It said there would be a return to a hard border on the island of Ireland before long and a “three-month meltdown” at ports unable to cope with extra checks. Protests could break out across the UK, requiring significant police intervention, and two oil refineries could close, with thousands of job losses, according to the documents.

Edited August 19, 2019 by david555

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

"Knowing" would indicate a deliberate decision to inflict hardship on future generations. This "whatever the cost" brexit will have to be paid for in due course, one way or another.

I do not believe that the public "knew" that the cost would spiral out of control but obviously you disagree.

As I have said many times, glad my time is coming to an end.

 

From Bojo's right hand man.

 

The pension age is already set to increase to 67 by 2028 and to 68 by 2046 – but the organisation, co-founded by former Conservative leader and work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan-Smith, wants to see a faster increase.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/state-pension-age-rise-conservatives-think-tank-centre-for-social-justice-a9064071.html

Well I hope you have your pension already? But what has this to do with Brexit?

[ThaiBunny]

23 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

The party decides on the leader before the GE. The public then vote for a party, knowing that should they win, that leader will become PM.

That's simply not true. If you look at the list of British PMs for the last 100 years, most - by far the greatest majority - became PM on the death or resignation of the then current PM and a GE was often not held for years. The only two leaders who have been initially elected as PM in a general election in the past 20 years have been Blair and Cameron, both from Opposition. Major, Brown and May were PM for varying periods without facing a GE, and May only held a GE despite the Fixed Terms Act saying otherwise through hubris, she certainly didn't need to

[Jip99]

5 hours ago, david555 said:

 ( Oeps…!! Another thing the Brits are supposed not to know …..by H.M. Government....(why ..? ???? ) I am sure about the future transfers of the 39 billions they go keep you also in the dark.....(until "leaked "....)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/number-10-furious-leak-document-predicting-no-deal-brexit-shortages

No 10 furious at leak of paper predicting shortages after no-deal Brexit

Government figures seek to play down predictions of food, medicine and fuel shortages in leaked document

Operation Yellowhammer: the keypoints  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/no-deal-brexit-key-points-of-operation-yellowhammer-report

 

 

Downing Street has reacted with fury to the leak of an official document predicting that a no-deal Brexit would lead to food, medicine and petrol shortages, with No 10 sources blaming the disclosure on a hostile former minister intent on ruining Boris Johnson’s trip to see EU leaders this week.

The leaked document, detailing preparations under Operation Yellowhammer, argues that the most likely scenario is severe extended delays to medicine supplies and shortages of some fresh foods, combined with price rises, if there is a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.

It said there would be a return to a hard border on the island of Ireland before long and a “three-month meltdown” at ports unable to cope with extra checks. Protests could break out across the UK, requiring significant police intervention, and two oil refineries could close, with thousands of job losses, according to the documents.

 

 

 

Sounds no worse than a recession.

 

 

 

[gamini]

On 8/18/2019 at 1:50 AM, aright said:

The general rule I cited refers to democracy. Your observations refer to social and political problems which exist in many democratic countries not going through Brexit. Try looking at the activities of Gilet Jaunes for starters. 

Upholding democracy is not a slogan it's a set of principles.

The cure for so called problems with democracy wouldn't exist if Remainers observed the general rule , as opposed to the resolution of problems within the undemocratic EU, which is more undemocratic EU.

I think I know where your bed is.

I can't understand why brexiteers seem to think that those that voted for it want a no-deal. Like any divorce settlement it a deal is usually made