Germany asks for forgiveness as Poland marks 80th anniversary of war

[webfact]

Germany asks for forgiveness as Poland marks 80th anniversary of war

By Alexandra Alper and Agnieszka Barteczko

 

Leaders and officials attend a commemorative ceremony to mark the 80th anniversary of the outbreak of World War Two in Warsaw, Poland September 1, 2019. Slawomir Kaminski/Agencja Gazeta via REUTERS

 

WARSAW (Reuters) - Germany's president asked for forgiveness for his country on Sunday for the suffering of the Polish people during World War Two as Poland marked 80 years since the Nazi German invasion that unleashed the deadliest conflict in human history.

 

The ceremonies began at 4:30 a.m. in the small town of Wielun, site of one of the first bombings of the war on Sept. 1, 1939, with speeches by Polish President Andrzej Duda and his German counterpart, Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

 

Few places saw death and destruction on the scale of Poland. It lost about a fifth of its population, including the vast majority of its 3 million Jewish citizens.

 

"I am here to express my feelings for the country, my patriotism, and to remind myself of these terrible times," said 68-year-old Warsaw resident Krzysztof Wojciechowski.

 

After the war, the shattered capital of Warsaw had to rise again from ruins and Poland remained under Soviet domination until 1989.

 

"As a German guest I walk before you here barefoot. I look back in gratitude to the Polish people's fight for freedom. I bow sorrowfully before the suffering of the victim," Steinmeier said at an event later in Warsaw.

 

"I ask for forgiveness for Germany's historical guilt. I profess to our lasting responsibility."

 

U.S. Vice President Mike Pence paid tribute to the courage of the Polish people.

 

"None fought with more valour, determination, and righteous fury than the Poles," Pence told the gathering of leaders in Warsaw that included German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French Prime Minister Edouard Philippe.

 

Pence attended the ceremony instead of U.S. President Donald Trump who cancelled his trip due to the arrival of Hurricane Dorian, a disappointment to Poland's ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party, which is seen as one of Washington's biggest allies in Europe.

 

"America and Poland will continue to call on our allies to live up to the promises we have made to one another," Pence said. He will hold bilateral talks in Warsaw on Monday.

 

Trump and the PiS government share views on issues such as migration, energy and abortion, but the Warsaw government faces mounting isolation in Europe over accusations that it subverts democratic norms.

 

For some in Poland, World War Two and its commemorations are still a live political issue, just weeks before a national vote.

 

For the PiS, the memory of the war is a major plank of its "historical politics", aiming to counteract what it calls the West's lack of appreciation for Polish suffering and bravery under Nazi occupation.

 

PiS politicians have repeatedly called for war reparations from Germany, one of Poland's biggest trade partners and a fellow member of the European Union and NATO, and several onlookers yelled "reparations" after Steinmeier spoke.

 

Berlin says all financial claims linked to World War Two have been settled, but Steinmeier continued with his theme of responsibility. "Because Germany - despite its history - was allowed to grow to new strength in Europe, we Germans must do more for Europe," he said.

 

Underscoring the Warsaw conservatives' distrust of its European allies, President Duda said World War Two may have been prevented had Western nations shown more opposition to the "manic visions" of Nazi German leader Adolf Hitler. "It's a big lesson for us," Duda said in a speech in Warsaw.

 

Despite the theme of the day looking back 80 years, present day politics was, as ever, to the fore.

 

"We know that Europe needs to become stronger and more self-confident," Steinmeier said. "But we also know: Europe should not be strong without America - or even against America. Rather, Europe needs partners. And I'm sure America needs partners in this world too ... So let's take care of this partnership!"

 

Conspicuously absent was Russian President Vladimir Putin who attended Sept. 1 events in Poland 10 years ago, but wasn't invited this time, reflecting a change in relations following Moscow's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014.

 

"There could be different assessments of the Soviet policy at the early stage of the Second World War. But one cannot deny the fact that it was the Soviet Union, which defeated Nazism, liberated Europe and saved European democracy from the annihilation," Russia's foreign ministry said in a statement.

 

ELECTION LOOMING

Poland was holding a series of commemorations during the day. Parallel events, attended by Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki and European Commission deputy chief Frans Timmermans, were held in the coastal city of Gdansk, site of one of the first battles of the war.

 

Morawiecki spoke of the huge material, spiritual, economic and financial losses Poland suffered in the war.

 

"We need to talk about those losses, we need to remember, we need to demand truth and demand compensation," Morawiecki said.

 

Critics say PiS's ambition is to fan nationalism among voters at a time when populists around the world are tapping into historical revisionism. PiS says the country's standing on the global stage and national security are at stake.

 

Wartime remembrance has become a campaign theme ahead of the national election due on Oct. 13, with PiS - expected to win - accusing the opposition of failing to protect Poland's image.

 

"Often, we are faced with substantial ignorance when it comes to historical policy ... or simply ill will," Jaroslaw Sellin, deputy culture minister, told Reuters.

 

Poland commemorates the outbreak of World War Two rather than its end because it fell under Soviet domination shortly afterwards.

 

(Reporting by Alexandra Alper, Marcin Goclowski, Anna Wlodarczak-Semczuk, Joanna Plucinska, Justyna Pawlak, Alicja Ptak Agnieszka Barteczko and Alan Charlish in Warsaw, Pawel Goraj in Gdansk, Valdimir Soldatkin in Moscow, and Paul Carrel and Joseph Nasr in Berlin; Editing by Alison Williams and Susan Fenton)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-09-02

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[Somtamnication]

They have a lot of countries to apologize to, and Japan should get started, as well.

[ratcatcher]

6 minutes ago, Somtamnication said:

They have a lot of countries to apologize to, and Japan should get started, as well.

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

[ezzra]

At what point? let me remind you that the world is full of Nazi Germany atrocities survivors and sufferers and the issue is still very much painful and vivid, not to mention holocaust deniers, as for Poland, let's not forget the hundred of thousand poles who collaborated with the Nazis and were at times even crueler than the german themselves...

[Longcut]

39 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

Blaming all German citizens for the actions of the Nazi regime is like blaming all white Americans for Slavery in the Southern United States. It happened, it was bad, but time to move on. 

[Emdog]

"There could be different assessments of the Soviet policy at the early stage of the Second World War. But one cannot deny the fact that it was the Soviet Union, which defeated Nazism..."

Uh, Herr Hitler and comrade Stalin agreed to slice Poland in half like a sausage. That's you "early stage" reality...

Soviet Union only went to war with Germany after Germany invaded Russia. They were just fine with deal until that happened.

[TopDeadSenter]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

Germany asks for forgiveness

 This kind of reminds me of a rude bloke loudly calling "EXCUSE ME" as he elbows and shoves through groups of passengers at a crowded train station. As if the apology somehow lessens his aggressive and impolite behavior. 

 

 If Germany really wanted to express sorrow and remorse for past acts of political aggression and attempts to conquer other European nations they should start acting like good neighbors. The current overwhelming domination of the EU by Germany(sounds familiar!!) suggests that they really do not want to make atonement for past atrocities.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

 

I think the range cited as question in your first line is about it  - between one and three generations. After that, experiences related are usually not even second-hand. Whether such apologies ought to be followed by financial or other forms of compensation relates to the time passed, the gravity of events and the extent to which people making claims were effected.

 

With regard to the Germany's actions in WWII, this would imply we're indeed approaching a time where such issues would cease to be a thing. Saying that, history and its lessons still need to be remembered.

 

 

[Tug]

Imo to see Germany taking and owning up to the responsibility of ww2 is a step in the right direction it is a permanent scar on Germany that will remain visible for many generations 

[evadgib]

Well done Poland and Germany for the dignified manner in which this commemoration was quite rightly acknowledged.

Edited September 2, 2019 by evadgib

[theoldgit]

Troll post removed

[blazes]

1 hour ago, Emdog said:

"There could be different assessments of the Soviet policy at the early stage of the Second World War. But one cannot deny the fact that it was the Soviet Union, which defeated Nazism..."

Uh, Herr Hitler and comrade Stalin agreed to slice Poland in half like a sausage. That's you "early stage" reality...

Soviet Union only went to war with Germany after Germany invaded Russia. They were just fine with deal until that happened.

 

Gave Stalin 2 years in which to build the tanks needed to win back all of Europe to Berlin. 

 

The Russian foreign ministry statement is correct: without the immense sacrifice of the Russian people and materiel, Hitler would have been able to devote all his forces to deal with the Normandy invasion. 

Probably most of us on ThaiVisa (maybe babies at the time) would not be here today without those Russian sacrifices.

[jondoe18]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

At what point? let me remind you that the world is full of Nazi Germany atrocities survivors and sufferers and the issue is still very much painful and vivid, not to mention holocaust deniers, as for Poland, let's not forget the hundred of thousand poles who collaborated with the Nazis and were at times even crueler than the german themselves...

Before Hitler and Stalin did "Killing is my business and a business is good"
Poland was a multicultural .
3 million Jews, millions of Ukrainians, Tatars lived in these areas

for hundreds of years .. And no one killed or resettled them.

[ratcatcher]

1 hour ago, Tug said:

Imo to see Germany taking and owning up to the responsibility of ww2 is a step in the right direction it is a permanent scar on Germany that will remain visible for many generations 

I believe that Germany has long  shown remorse for the evils that were carried out under the Nazis. However there must come a time when the wounds are healed and people have moved on.  Most of the survivors of the death camps are in their eighties and nineties or deceased. I am sure the German people have a similar phrase to "Lest we forget".  In a few generations Dem Deutsche Volk will be overrun by Afrikan Volk.

Edited September 2, 2019 by ratcatcher

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

 

Fair play to the Americans who led the allied policy thinking on how to deal with defeated Germany and Japan after WW11; rather than punishing them and then leaving them to it as the allies had done to defeated Germany after WW1.

 

Don't hear any apologizing for WW1. Perhaps because there are still many people who lived through WW11 still alive and because the Holocaust was so profound whereas WW1 is becoming more distant.

 

Japan has never shown the remorse that Germany has nor has it even recognized the atrocious crimes committed by its military. Japan was also spared the war trials that held Germany accountable.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, blazes said:

 

Gave Stalin 2 years in which to build the tanks needed to win back all of Europe to Berlin. 

 

The Russian foreign ministry statement is correct: without the immense sacrifice of the Russian people and materiel, Hitler would have been able to devote all his forces to deal with the Normandy invasion. 

Probably most of us on ThaiVisa (maybe babies at the time) would not be here today without those Russian sacrifices.

 

That's true. But let's not forget that Stalin and the Soviets were happy to be allies of the Nazis and to help them in their invasion of Poland by also attacking Poland and occupying a large part for themselves. They wouldn't have lifted a finger to help other European countries if Hitler hadn't turned on them. And after Germany was defeated they occupied many Eastern European countries for decades.

[blazes]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Fair play to the Americans who led the allied policy thinking on how to deal with defeated Germany and Japan after WW11; rather than punishing them and then leaving them to it as the allies had done to defeated Germany after WW1.

 

Don't hear any apologizing for WW1. Perhaps because there are still many people who lived through WW11 still alive and because the Holocaust was so profound whereas WW1 is becoming more distant.

 

Japan has never shown the remorse that Germany has nor has it even recognized the atrocious crimes committed by its military. Japan was also spared the war trials that held Germany accountable.

Dunno about the "fair play" of Uncle Sam. 

 

The Americans took the view that it would be in their (America's) interest to get Japan and Germany on their feet as quickly as possible because they were (still are) two mighty industrial powers whose economies would be dependent on the United States for many decades.

[jondoe18]

16 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Don't hear any apologizing for WW1. Perhaps because there are still many people who lived through WW11 still alive and because the Holocaust was so profound whereas WW1 is becoming more distant.

WW1 ended only a few years ago when Germany paid the last reparation

installment to the UK, so don't have to apologize any more.
WW2 is still going on ... only warfare ceased .
Apologizing is just an attempt to escape cheaply.

[jspill]

3 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

In a few generations Dem Deutsche Volk will be overrun by Afrikan Volk.

One would've thought that the mass immigration into all white countries since WWII is evidence that, as Patton said, we fought the wrong enemy and should be apologising to Germany. 

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, jspill said:

One would've thought that the mass immigration into all white countries since WWII is evidence that, as Patton said, we fought the wrong enemy and should be apologising to Germany. 

 

Apologise to Germany, Poster Says.

Yes, things would have been so much better under Nazi rule, eh?

[jspill]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

Apologise to Germany, Poster Says.

Yes, things would have been so much better under Nazi rule, eh?

'They wanted to take over the world and we'd all be speaking German', poster says. Lol there's never been any evidence of that tired meme. Hitler proposed peace many times and wrote of his respect for the UK. They only wanted to fight communism.

 

White children being a <50% ethnic minority in their own countries and 9 year old drag kids dancing for tips in bars is good, eh? Think those things are totally unconnected to the long march through the institutions that communism underwent post WWII and the loss of millions of our best men and the British empire?

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, jspill said:

'They wanted to take over the world and we'd all be speaking German', poster says. Lol there's never been any evidence of that tired meme. Hitler proposed peace many times and wrote of his respect for the UK. They only wanted to fight communism.

 

White children being a <50% ethnic minority in their own countries and 9 year old drag kids dancing for tips in bars is good, eh? Think those things are totally unconnected to the long march through the institutions that communism underwent post WWII and the loss of millions of our best men and the British empire?

 

If you'd be so kind as to point out where exactly I said what you claimed, that's be great. Until then, thanks for making the Nazi apologist beat clearer.

[bkk6060]

8 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

At what point do apologies cease to have real meaning. After 1, 2 or 3 generations? Just how far back in history do we have to go to apologize to countries that were colonized by colonial powers of the 18th & 19th centuries?

Some in the USA are demanding reparations for those descendents of slaves. Where to draw the line? 

I think the Poles and other nations that were crushed under the Nazi regime have realized that Germany and in turn Japan have paid their debt to society by their non aggressive actions over the last 80 years.  

Great post I thought I was one of the few that has issues with these things.

Lets go back to the stoneage and have every man apologize for grabbing womens hair.

Usually it ends up being a attempt money grab of some sort.

Definitely time to move on from these sort of issues.  

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by bkk6060

[jondoe18]

4 hours ago, jondoe18 said:

WW1 ended only a few years ago when Germany paid the last reparation

installment to the UK, so don't have to apologize any more.
WW2 is still going on ... only warfare ceased .
Apologizing is just an attempt to escape cheaply.

For all who make crooked faces to my post, I will explain using the simplest example.

There are thousands of paintings looted by Germany during WWII
which are still treated as spoils of war .

They are very sorry and apologize But they don't even want to give back

 the paintings... Funny !

[Dap]

In this world we live in and especially in these times, I don't think it's ever inappropriate to apologise and ask forgiveness, as well as granting forgiveness, no matter how long its been since the actual transgressions. Just maybe, someone will learn something. Certainly, there can't be a downside to asking for forgiveness.

[Deli]

Enough is enough. 80 years after no excuses needed, any blame is just ridiculous after so many years. WE also can go back to the 30 years lasting war in 1600 to keep the eternal whingers, happy.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[blny]

13 hours ago, ezzra said:

let's not forget the hundred of thousand poles who collaborated with the Nazis and were at times even crueler than the german themselves...

Please tell me the source of these revelations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II

[Jack Mountain]

History is always brought as something we have to know so that we can learn from so that we will never make the same mistakes again. 

In practice it's more a tool for copy/paste hate to the new generations.

 

In my opinion your history starts from the moment you are born and your country's history before that is reading stuff when you really can't sleep ..

 

What is your country anyway? Just the location of your mothers womb when you were born! Not less not more ... 

 

No need to worry, ashamed or proud of something of which you were not part of and that not even happened in your time passage ...

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Jack Mountain

[usviphotography]

18 hours ago, Dap said:

In this world we live in and especially in these times, I don't think it's ever inappropriate to apologise and ask forgiveness, as well as granting forgiveness, no matter how long its been since the actual transgressions. Just maybe, someone will learn something. Certainly, there can't be a downside to asking for forgiveness.

Asking for "forgiveness" for something that happened before you were even born is simply pathetic and a symptom of why Germany is unlikely to exist within a couple of decades. Ironically, invasion by Russia is probably the only thing that could save Germany at this point.