Who's entitled to our the House if my Thai Wife Dies?

[snowgard]

17 hours ago, amykat said:

Why do you think you have a legal right to live in the house if your wife dies before you?  What have you written up?  If the house is in her name, and it was left out of any will, then it will pass to her relatives and you have no right to live there.  Unless you did something special ...if so what was it??

Completly wrong!!! The house gone to the husband and kids, if they have!!! But because him is a farang him must sale the land in a timeframe (1 year or so) what him can ask at the landoffice. 
Absolut nothing goes to the relatives if there is no will!!!
 

Edited September 8, 2019 by snowgard

[ThomasThBKK]

48 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

so you have a chanot for a house with no land?

First of all the you can get lifetime right to use the land registered on a chanote (usufruct).

And then you can register the house in your name too (Superficies), also for lifetime. can even be inherited if it's 30 year superficies.

 

Both is registered on the chanote, yes. But no you don't have your own house chanote, that is just something in the condominium act, this stuff is all regulated in the commercial and civil code of thailand...

 

Unlike a lease, which is horrible, it's a real right (right in rem)...

 

Property ownership here is not that bad, most people just do it wrong, the other problem is some land offices are simply asses and don't want to do it without tmoney.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[amykat]

38 minutes ago, snowgard said:

Completly wrong!!! The house gone to the husband and kids, if they have!!! But because him is a farang him must sale the land in a timeframe (1 year or so) what him can ask at the landoffice. 
Absolut nothing goes to the relatives if there is no will!!!
 

If there is a will leaving the house to the husband, that is usually the case, they are given one year to sell it.  The OP said they have no children.  I don’t know why a foreign spouse doesn’t inherit but it seems they might not inherit.  This has happened to foreign men here, where they totally purchased a house but without any protection, their wife died, and relatives came and threw them out immediately. Maybe foreigners cannot inherit land?

 

[LukKrueng]

23 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

First of all the you can get lifetime right to use the land registered on a chanote (usufruct).

And then you can register the house in your name too (Superficies), also for lifetime. can even be inherited if it's 30 year superficies.

 

Both is registered on the chanote, yes. But no you don't have your own house chanote, that is just something in the condominium act, this stuff is all regulated in the commercial and civil code of thailand...

 

Unlike a lease, which is horrible, it's a real right (right in rem)...

 

Property ownership here is not that bad, most people just do it wrong, the other problem is some land offices are simply asses and don't want to do it without tmoney.

 

 

read the post I reacted to, and you'll understand my question. There is no such thing as "house ownership" in Thailand. The ownership is over the land, and that's what is registered at the land office.

a lease gives you the right to use the land for the length of the lease (up to 30 years) and according to the conditions set in the lease (the owner can set conditions such as allowing/not allowing to cut trees, take down or build structures and so on, and a normal lease that allows you to build a permanent structure might forbid you from taking it down at the end of the lease, so "ownership" of a house means nothing, and it is not registered anywhere).

usufruct is the right to use the land and what's on it for the reminder of your life. You can't sell or pass this right to anyone else and you can't will it to anyone.

registering a lease or a usufruct on the chanot is done in the same way a loan/mortgage against the land is registered. It doesn't mean you own anything, and the owner can still sell the land only that the agreement (lease or usufruct) is binding the new owner and protect your rights to use the land

[Tuvoc]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

But is that according to the commercial code of Thailand in a scenario where there is no will, or?

 

Yes, where there is no will.

[DannyCarlton]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

So now you change the story.

No. How have I changed the story?

[ThomasThBKK]

4 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

read the post I reacted to, and you'll understand my question. There is no such thing as "house ownership" in Thailand. The ownership is over the land, and that's what is registered at the land office.

a lease gives you the right to use the land for the length of the lease (up to 30 years) and according to the conditions set in the lease (the owner can set conditions such as allowing/not allowing to cut trees, take down or build structures and so on, and a normal lease that allows you to build a permanent structure might forbid you from taking it down at the end of the lease, so "ownership" of a house means nothing, and it is not registered anywhere).

usufruct is the right to use the land and what's on it for the reminder of your life. You can't sell or pass this right to anyone else and you can't will it to anyone.

registering a lease or a usufruct on the chanot is done in the same way a loan/mortgage against the land is registered. It doesn't mean you own anything, and the owner can still sell the land only that the agreement (lease or usufruct) is binding the new owner and protect your rights to use the land

 

Lease and usufruct are 2 completely different things... Usufructs can be over your lifetime and aren't limited to 30 years.

 

Quote

Section 1418. If no time limit, Usufruct is presumed to be Lifetime.

 

A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for the life of the usufructuary. If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usufructuary.

 

And yes, the superficies are giving you ownership over the structures also for lifetime AND are registered on the chanote....

 

Leases are complete rubbish, no real right, and totally unrelated. A scam to fleece foreigners.

 

Quote

Section 1410. Right of Superficies

 

The owner of a piece of land may create a right of superficies in favor of another person by giving him the right to own, upon or under the land, buildings, structures or plantations.

 

 

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

Lease and usufruct are 2 completely different things... Usufructs can be over your lifetime and aren't limited to 30 years.

 

 

And yes, the superficies are giving you ownership over the structures also for lifetime AND are registered on the chanote....

 

Leases are complete rubbish, no real right, and totally unrelated. A scam to fleece foreigners.

 

 

do you READ before you comment/answer any posts?? Look AGAIN at my post. I wrote: usufruct is the right to use the land and what's on it for the reminder of your life.

as for ownership over the building - where do you register the ownership? Do you get a chanot for the building? can you sell the building? Can you will it (answer is "no" for above 3 questions).

both lease (yeah, ok, you think it's complete rubbish, I get it) and usufruct are noted on the chanot as a warning. The person registered as the leasee / usufructee is not registered as the owner of the land, cannot make changed to the land such as dividing the plot, sell it, and in case of usufruct - pass the rights to another person.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 11:22 AM, Matzzon said:

If your wife dies, you will not have any rights to house or land, without eralier agree ment and some changes.

The first thing you can check is if the land department will agree to separate the land and the house. If you then put the house in your name, you will have the ownership of the house, and then make a land lease contract between you and your wife for as long as possible that is legal and valid after her death.

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Regarding your wife want not want the house to go to close family. That would mean she have to change the legal rights of children or others. That is something very hard, almost impossible, and she can only do that with a lawyer by herself.

Doesn't sound like the wife loved her family, so in the real world, whatever the "rights" of the OP to live in it may be, reality dictates a move elsewhere. This isn't Kansas, Toto.

[Hanuman2547]

Unfortunately, this happened to me about 14 years ago.  My Thai wife passed away from cancer.  We had a couple of houses and a condo in Bangkok and elsewhere.  Our two luk krung Thai boys were 19 and 17 at the time.  When the oldest one turned 20 we just put everything in his name.  Both boys have Thai citizenship, were educated in Thailand but went to university in the USA where they are now working.  I don't forsee them returning to Thailand to work.  The houses remain primarily empty but are rented out occasionally.

[scorecard]

56 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Doesn't sound like the wife loved her family, so in the real world, whatever the "rights" of the OP to live in it may be, reality dictates a move elsewhere. This isn't Kansas, Toto.

And your making a lot of assumptions / too many assumptions about the wife's family.

[Tomahawk21]

19 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Sadly, I suggest if the wife gets ill, sell it and buy a condo before she dies !

im not married but i have many assets here, as i get older i will sell the assets and start to move the money where i want it to go, i would not want to die here leaving a small fortune to this shower , trusting them to do what i wanted in my will.

[brianthainess]

On 9/8/2019 at 6:22 AM, Matzzon said:

Another way would be to sign a usufruct, that gives you the right to live in the house as long as oyu live or want to stay, but that no gives you any kind of owners rights.

Absolutely but apparently not every land office will give a usufruct TIT.

[brianthainess]

22 hours ago, Capt Rob said:

As outlined here and elsewhere but some amplification and options :

 

Possibly the house was paid for by you - have a loan doc drawn up for you loaning your wife, interest free the amount expended in house construction purchase.

A usufruct allowing you to live in the house / Not sure how that would work as the house would presumably be left to someone other than you / if the house was left to you, you have 12 months to sell. A will is definately called for as is legal advice.

So what happens if you can't sell it in a year ?

[snowgard]

9 hours ago, amykat said:

If there is a will leaving the house to the husband, that is usually the case, they are given one year to sell it.  The OP said they have no children.  I don’t know why a foreign spouse doesn’t inherit but it seems they might not inherit.  This has happened to foreign men here, where they totally purchased a house but without any protection, their wife died, and relatives came and threw them out immediately. Maybe foreigners cannot inherit land?

 

Right!!! Foreigners can not inherit land. That's why the foreign spouse gets time from the land office to sell it. In the cases in which relatives take over the land / house, this is only if it is so regulated in the will or the foreign spouse is too stupid, don't know his rights and believe what the relatives tell.

 

You can believe me, there are a lot of foreigners here who do not know their legal rights and have any <deleted> told. In fact, most laws do not differ from those in their home country, but sometimes you need balls and have to fight for your rights.

[brianthainess]

22 hours ago, Victornoir said:

Totally wrong.

In Thai law (as elsewhere) a usufruct gives you the right of total occupancy of the premises exactly like a lease. For example, no changes to the premises or the land can be made without your consent.

For Khaepmu, you must go with your wife at the local land office to register a usufruct for life on the house.
provide about 5000b of costs. Contract written immediately on the spot in my own case.

What are the costs for ? as i have been told by a friend he paid about 100 baht.

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Here we go again. The head of the Land Office in Pattaya, declared that Foreigners cannot take out a Ufustruct. I have checked with lawyers and at the Land Office. No chance in Pattaya.

 

Apparently he is correct to the letter of the law but I'm not aware of it being enforced anywhere else in Thailand. If you can find a way to secure me a ufustruct on my property, I'd be very grateful, it's my biggest worry.

Well I spoke to my lawyer again and he in turn called the LTO senior in Chiang Mai.

 

Why?, simple, because my lawyer wants to be sure he is fully / accurately aware of the law. 

 

Latest answer from LTO guy is that an usufruct can be taken out by a Thai person or a foreigner, all clear in the law, and again he mentioned this is national law and cannot be applied differently in different locations. He did also mention that there is some past history of less than appropriate (illegal) activities at several LTOs across Thailand.

 

   

[DannyCarlton]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Well I spoke to my lawyer again and he in turn called the LTO senior in Chiang Mai.

 

Why?, simple, because my lawyer wants to be sure he is fully / accurately aware of the law. 

 

Latest answer from LTO guy is that an usufruct can be taken out by a Thai person or a foreigner, all clear in the law, and again he mentioned this is national law and cannot be applied differently in different locations. He did also mention that there is some past history of less than appropriate (illegal) activities at several LTOs across Thailand.

 

   

That doesn't really help me and others who can't get a ufustruct in Pattaya.

[scorecard]

11 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

That doesn't really help me and others who can't get a ufustruct in Pattaya.

Point taken and I hope that soon these sort of things get sorted out, but as no doubt you would see, I'm not holding my breath.

[DannyCarlton]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Point taken and I hope that soon these sort of things get sorted out, but as no doubt you would see, I'm not holding my breath.

Apparently it started a couple of years ago when the Land Office appointed a new head. All we can hope for is that he retires and a new one is appointed and he is less anti farang. It's not a money thing as I offered 5k baht to smooth things over via my wife and lawyer. Wasn't interested.

[brianthainess]

48 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

That doesn't really help me and others who can't get a ufustruct in Pattaya.

Please don't complain or criticize if you can not get a ufustrut as this Govt will stop all foreigners from being allowed one, or it will be 50,000 baht for foreigners. ???? ????. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by brianthainess
add image

[DannyCarlton]

2 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Please don't complain or criticize if you can not get a ufustrut as this Govt will stop all foreigners from being allowed one, or it will be 50,000 baht for foreigners. ???? ????.

I'd be willing to pay that but no can do in Pattaya.

[Matzzon]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Doesn't sound like the wife loved her family, so in the real world, whatever the "rights" of the OP to live in it may be, reality dictates a move elsewhere. This isn't Kansas, Toto.

Who is, Toto? And most important, what does he/she/it has to do with this?

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Apparently it started a couple of years ago when the Land Office appointed a new head. All we can hope for is that he retires and a new one is appointed and he is less anti farang. It's not a money thing as I offered 5k baht to smooth things over via my wife and lawyer. Wasn't interested.

 

Well I know from personal experience more than 3 decades ago, we bought a house in Sth. Pattaya because it was clear that the Eastern Seaboard would be my work location for probably the next 10 years, and I asked the company lawyer to come to Pattaya to finalize everything at the Pattaya LTO.

 

On the morning the LTO manager was walking around telling all the customers " i',m so sad today because all government offices are closed today but my staff have to work so I'm asking all customers today to make a donation and at the end of the day I'll split the money equally between the staff, 30,00Baht each please".

 

As soon as he said "30,000Baht each please" another property agent said to my lawyer "don't worry he's got at least 200 more sad stories, and he uses a sad story every morning and 30,000 each is his current going daily rate".

 

My lawyer had already heard about this and had warned me well in advance that the costs of effecting my transfer might rise by about 30,000Baht. It happens. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by scorecard

[khunPer]

12 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

That doesn't really help me and others who can't get a ufustruct in Pattaya.

Yes, things are not the same all over the Nation, what's possible in Chiang Mai might not be possible further south v.v. – usufruct is also not granted to aliens where I live...????

[keithcresswell]

Speaking from personal experience (my thai wife died in April). It is very important to get her to name you as the main beneficiary in her will. Also to name you as administrator. It's taken 6 months and a number of court visits to finally be named on the chanote as estate manager. However pattaya land office have told me I must sell within 6 months starting from when I got the court order, 2 months ago!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[hanuman2543]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:21 AM, amykat said:

Why do you think you have a legal right to live in the house if your wife dies before you?  What have you written up?  If the house is in her name, and it was left out of any will, then it will pass to her relatives and you have no right to live there.  Unless you did something special ...if so what was it??

You have no clue. With no will made he can claim 75% of all shared property. Look it up in the CCC

[amykat]

6 hours ago, hanuman2543 said:

You have no clue. With no will made he can claim 75% of all shared property. Look it up in the CCC

Okay, I guess what I should have said is that by leaving the house out of the will between a husband and wife, that shows an intent to me.  What would that intent be?  Not to leave the house in the wife’s name to the husband.  Unless there is some other protection that has not been spoken about.  If there is a paid off property, many things could happen.  The wife could just transfer it to her sister’s name, take on debt, whatever.  Make a will he doesn’t know about that leaves the house to her family?  

[BritManToo]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:02 AM, brianthainess said:

So what happens if you can't sell it in a year ?

They give you another year .........