large air bubbles rising from return lines

[ThePioneer]

I have an in ground pool with Zodiac Tri salt water chlorinator, Hayward 1.5 Hp super pump II and Hayward S310T2 filter. I have a vertical mounted check valve between pump outlet and filter inlet, and a closed tap on the filter waste pipe.

I checked the check valve and it's working properly.

 

When I finish a filter cycle a few large air bubbles will rise from the return line and render the chlorinator cell housing almost empty. When the filter cycle stops there is no air under the pump lid.

 

The chlorinator cell housing is installed right above where the return lines go into the ground, and pump house is at same level as pool and right at the pool.

 

I will let the pump run for another 1 minute or even 30 seconds and the cell housing will be air free and stay like that indefinitely.

 

I do not see any air bubbles under the pump lid or in the cell housing at any time, though during the filter cycle I can hear water flow in the return lines below the cell housing.

 

The pump draws water from 3 feeds simultaneously, all using 2 inch tubing. I have had tried a check valve on the outlet pipe of the filter, but that would not make any difference.

 

Any suggestion what could be the cause?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by ThePioneer

[carlyai]

I have an in ground pool with Zodiac Tri salt water chlorinator, Hayward 1.5 Hp super pump II and Hayward S310T2 filter. I have a vertical mounted check valve between pump outlet and filter inlet, and a closed tap on the filter waste pipe.

I checked the check valve and it's working properly.
 
When I finish a filter cycle a few large air bubbles will rise from the return line and render the chlorinator cell housing almost empty. When the filter cycle stops there is no air under the pump lid.
 
The chlorinator cell housing is installed right above where the return lines go into the ground, and pump house is at same level as pool and right at the pool.
 
I will let the pump run for another 1 minute or even 30 seconds and the cell housing will be air free and stay like that indefinitely.
 
I do not see any air bubbles under the pump lid or in the cell housing at any time, though during the filter cycle I can hear water flow in the return lines below the cell housing.
 
The pump draws water from 3 feeds simultaneously, all using 2 inch tubing. I have had tried a check valve on the outlet pipe of the filter, but that would not make any difference.
 
Any suggestion what could be the cause?
 
 
 
 

Can you add a picture of your piping, pump, filter and chlorinator setup?

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[ThePioneer]

3 hours ago, carlyai said:

Can you add a picture of your piping, pump, filter and chlorinator setup?

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Not sure what you want to achieve by looking at pipes, since nothing has changed for the past 7 years, and it started only in the past few weeks

 

 

[carlyai]

Just checking: from the filter the pipe work goes to the chlorinator then returnes to the pool?

My pool is always filtering for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the afternoon on a time switch. I take it off automatic on Sundays to clean the pool.

Sorry I don't understand about your filter cycle.

The more information we add may help someone suggest what the problem is.


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[SantiSuk]

Air leaking into the top of the pump filter housing?

 

Unlikely if there is no evidence of water leaking out the other way (and potentially leaving salt deposits on the floor). Still worth giving the rubber seal a thin coating of silica gel to ensure an airtight fit

[Bagwain]

Check valve fittings can some times suck air in without any water being leaked.

Alternatvely you could have a broken pipe?

 

[ThePioneer]

1 hour ago, Bagwain said:

Check valve fittings can some times suck air in without any water being leaked.

Alternatvely you could have a broken pipe?

 

The TVF notification system seemingly also has air bubbles, as it disables itself after the first notification LOL<

 

I would think that if there was a broken pipe or valve fitting sucking air, I would see either a water leak or in the latter case air bubbles under the pump lid or the clear cell housing. Correct or not?

 

How to check if a fitting or joint sucks air?

 

Take note also, the air bubble rises from the pipe that goes directly to the pool, not from the filter side

Edited September 17, 2019 by ThePioneer

[carlyai]

Sorry that I'm a bit thick, but is this correct? When the automatic timer turns off your pump, you get bubbles in the chlorinator coming from the return pool pipe. If you then manually start your pump (still with filter selected on your filter) for 1 min then stop your pump the bubbles disappear and don't return?

If this is correct, do you see those bubbles come out your return pipe into the pool?



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[ThePioneer]

8 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Sorry that I'm a bit thick, but is this correct? When the automatic timer turns off your pump, you get bubbles in the chlorinator coming from the return pool pipe. If you then manually start your pump (still with filter selected on your filter) for 1 min then stop your pump the bubbles disappear and don't return?

If this is correct, do you see those bubbles come out your return pipe into the pool?



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yes

[carlyai]

yes

If there is only one return pipe, and the chlorinator bubbles are coming from the pipe, I think it could indicates a broken pipe, like the other poster stated.

If you get to the stage where you think that's all it must be, you could try something radical like: 1: dig up the dirt near the return and see if it's wet.
2. If you have a vacuum return line, make a temporary connection from the chlorinator to this line and see what happens. 3. break the pipe from the chlorinator to the pool and install a temp. hose into the pool and see what happens.

Somehow (to me) it doesn't all add up. Sorry, haven't been much help.



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[sappersrest]

As Bagwain has said you first port off call should be the non return valve  ideally you need to remove it completely and  clean it checking for any tiny bits of grit etc ( remember to note the direction of flow when reassembling it, if necessary  put your own flow arrow on it)

You also seem to have a few double union valves check that they are tight DO NOT over tighten.

Unfortunatly the stems on these valves can wear and can either leak water or draw air in.

[carlyai]

As Bagwain has said you first port off call should be the non return valve  ideally you need to remove it completely and  clean it checking for any tiny bits of grit etc ( remember to note the direction of flow when reassembling it, if necessary  put your own flow arrow on it)
You also seem to have a few double union valves check that they are tight DO NOT over tighten.
Unfortunatly the stems on these valves can wear and can either leak water or draw air in.

But the OP said the bubles come in from the pool return.

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[alacrity]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:55 AM, ThePioneer said:

Not sure what you want to achieve by looking at pipes, since nothing has changed for the past 7 years, and it started only in the past few weeks

 

 

Highest probability would (definitely) be a leak. Which muppet did that installation?

 

Chasing leaks isn't easy. Particularly when it's a vacuum problem.

 

Check the compression seals first (because that's the easiest). After that just redo the whole thing. It'll be quicker and cheaper.

[ThePioneer]

13 minutes ago, alacrity said:

Which muppet did that installation?

 

The installation wasn't done by any muppet.

 

How would you do in a limited space with 3 pumps an air blower and a 28" filter.

 

answers on a postcard.

 

By the way, nobody has answered my question yet. If there was a vacuum leak wouldn't it be visible in the clear cell housing during filter cycle, because that is the very last stage before the water goes back to the pool?

Edited September 18, 2019 by ThePioneer

[alacrity]

8 minutes ago, ThePioneer said:

The installation wasn't done by any muppet.

 

How would you do in a limited space with 3 pumps an air blower and a 28" filter.

 

answers on a postcard.

 

By the way, nobody has answered my question yet. If there was a vacuum leak wouldn't it be visible in the clear cell housing during filter cycle, because that is the very last stage before the water goes back to the pool?

So it was a particular muppet then! Why use PTFE tape on a professional installation? Best description of yours is an abortion in a bucket.

 

Answer to your enquiry should be yes but depends on things such as flow rate and how good your eyes are. Not forgetting the level of ingress.

[ThePioneer]

36 minutes ago, alacrity said:

So it was a particular muppet then! Why use PTFE tape on a professional installation? Best description of yours is an abortion in a bucket.

 

The tape is just some leftover from something else, nothing to do with the installation, muppet

 

If you mean the teflon tape where the pipes enter filter and pump, that woould obviously be to prevent leaks, not?

Edited September 18, 2019 by ThePioneer

[carlyai]

The Pioneer wrote:' By the way, nobody has answered my question yet. If there was a vacuum leak wouldn't it be visible in the clear cell housing during filter cycle, because that is the very last stage before the water goes back to the pool? '

I think yes, but it may be difficult to see the bubbles.

I would suspect that you've done the things that others have suggested already. If nothing else has changed, then the only other place that gets disturbed is the pool pump clear lid as you weekly clean out the basket. So you should have already put some special silicon around the threaded area as suggested. I think you've already checked the NRV as these evidently rust out. All fittings already checked for tightness. If you have a leak around fittings you should see a rim of salt around the fitting. There is some 3M electrical insulation tape that is magic for helping with leaks. Fixed mine.
So if you've done all the knowledgable people on this forum suggest, then it might be time to look at my last option.


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[tjo o tjim]

Cavitation?  The bubbles could be staying in solution until they see a drop in pressure.

[ThePioneer]

9 minutes ago, tjo o tjim said:

Cavitation?  The bubbles could be staying in solution until they see a drop in pressure.

 

All return lines to the pool are open, so where would the cavitation happen?

[ThePioneer]

I just had the filter pump running for little over an hour. Chlorinator not active.

 

When I switched off the pump there wasn't even the tiniest bubble rising from the return lines.

 

 

[carlyai]

 
All return lines to the pool are open, so where would the cavitation happen?

Cavitation into the pump could happen if you don't have about 0.5 m straight pipe section from your skimmer into your pump. Can't remember but think it's 10 X pipe diameter. Yours looks OK.

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[carlyai]

I just had the filter pump running for little over an hour. Chlorinator not active.
 
When I switched off the pump there wasn't even the tiniest bubble rising from the return lines.
 
 

That would tend to eliminate a cracked return line pipe.
So the only difference between seeing return pipe bubbles in the chlorinator and not seeing return pipe bubbles in the chlorinator is power to the chlorinator?


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[ThePioneer]

Just now, carlyai said:

That would tend to eliminate a cracked return line pipe.
So the only difference between seeing return pipe bubbles in the chlorinator and not seeing return pipe bubbles in the chlorinator is power to the chlorinator?


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There no bubbles in the chlorinator ever. A few big bubbles rise from the return line into the cell housing when a 3 hour filter cycle ends

[RedPill]

On 9/16/2019 at 6:24 AM, carlyai said:

Can you add a picture of your piping, pump, filter and chlorinator setup?

Picture pops up with tens of blue pipes going all directions Thai style ????

 

On 9/16/2019 at 9:09 PM, carlyai said:

Sorry I don't understand about your filter cycle.

My apologies, not really helpful, I know. I also had a lot of issues with my pump over the years, hence reading through those 2 comments and seeing the picture just cracked me up for a moment ???? It still does when I go into my own pump house.

 

Hope you get it sorted!

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by RedPill

[Gandtee]

I know nothing about pool pumps but generally pumping air bubbles could indicate the pump need priming.

[carlyai]

There no bubbles in the chlorinator ever. A few big bubbles rise from the return line into the cell housing when a 3 hour filter cycle ends

But when I initially asked you questions and you answered 'yes' that you had bubbles in the chlorinator. So when you refer to the cell you don't mean the chlorinator cell. You mean the clear plastic part of the pump.

I was going to try and help but as I said before 'things don't add up' and we're talking about different things so I bow out. Good luck.

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[Thinkingallowed]

3 hours ago, ThePioneer said:

There no bubbles in the chlorinator ever. A few big bubbles rise from the return line into the cell housing when a 3 hour filter cycle ends

You might wish to open up your multi-port valve on top of the filter and inspect the spider o-ring which could have been damaged or unseated when changing the valve position during a backwash/rinse cycle etc.

[ThePioneer]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

But when I initially asked you questions and you answered 'yes' that you had bubbles in the chlorinator. So when you refer to the cell you don't mean the chlorinator cell. You mean the clear plastic part of the pump.

I was going to try and help but as I said before 'things don't add up' and we're talking about different things so I bow out. Good luck.

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Mate this was your question

 

If this is correct, do you see those bubbles come out your return pipe into the pool?

 

So yes there come a couple large bubbles out of that return line when the filter cycle STOPS, and i thought I had made that clear several times already.

 

I can't even imagine how it would be possible to have air bubbles come out of that pipe while there is water pumped down that pipe

Edited September 19, 2019 by ThePioneer

[carlyai]

@ThePioneer, It doesn't really matter as long as you find the problem, but this is what I asked:
'Sorry that I'm a bit thick, but is this correct? When the automatic timer turns off your pump, you get bubbles in the chlorinator coming from the return pool pipe. If you then manually start your pump (still with filter selected on your filter) for 1 min then stop your pump the bubbles disappear and don't return?'

If this is correct, do you see those bubbles come out your return pipe into the pool?

To this you answered 'yes'.



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[dirtybirty]

Not sure what you want to achieve by looking at pipes, since nothing has changed for the past 7 years, and it started only in the past few weeks
 
 

What a cluster f sorry

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