Anyone used SCG Ku Din fertiliser?

[Grumpy John]

Around here a lot of  people are mulching under the mango trees with sugar cane waste which is seasonal to some degree and not always available.  I am wondering if Ku Din is worth using. We need to apply it before Xmas as we irrigate from then till March and need a good mulch cover to help keep the moisture in the soil as long as possible.  

[IsaanAussie]

Very interesting. Composted wood fibre fermented with what? Do you have an analysis of the content or the additives that are used? The issue I see is the material used is high carbon content but little nitrogen. If no N is added the biology in the composted material will be hungry and would draw from the ground. So what is the N source?

Sugar cane baggase is cheap as chips if you are lucky enough to be on the return route for any trucks that take cane to a mill. Most drivers will welcome any income rather than return empty.

How much is the KuDin fertiliser per bag and what are the rates for use? 

I dont know the product but would suggest if it is as advertised, a fertiliser, than I would use it as such under the drip line of your trees, but not as a general mulch. 

Having said that, I am keen to learn more about this stuff.

[Grumpy John]

I haven't got a lot of info on it either!  Was hoping to find someone on here who could recommend or condemn it.  The SCG site was glowing with praise for it....surprise  surprise!  With mango trees in India they use wood chippers to reduce the  waste material after prunning, so I have an open mind with using wood waste as a mulch.  Unfortunately I don't have the readies to buy a  wood chipper of decent size.  For the time being I am living off my Thai money and won't be buying in LOS.  And buying one on Alibaba using my Aussie money, and having it sent may leave me with a nasty tax and duty bill....as well as import agent fees. If we have a  bumper season I may Change my mind....maybe! 

[drtreelove]

It may be a little late to start this year, but consider a sunn hemp legume green manure cover crop during rainy season. Cut and leave lay as mulch, or incorporate to build soil organic matter content.  

 

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/grow-crops/grow-grasses-forage/sunn-hemp-soil-building-superhero-forage-potential/

and see YouTube videos. 

 

Fertilizer for Free: How to make the most from
biological nitrogen fixation v. 1.0
by Wojciech Majda

[email protected]
You might also want to check out my Website:
DesignerEcosystem.Com
Thank you for your time.
Wojciech Majda

[IsaanAussie]

4 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

I haven't got a lot of info on it either!  Was hoping to find someone on here who could recommend or condemn it.  The SCG site was glowing with praise for it....surprise  surprise!  With mango trees in India they use wood chippers to reduce the  waste material after prunning, so I have an open mind with using wood waste as a mulch.  Unfortunately I don't have the readies to buy a  wood chipper of decent size.  For the time being I am living off my Thai money and won't be buying in LOS.  And buying one on Alibaba using my Aussie money, and having it sent may leave me with a nasty tax and duty bill....as well as import agent fees. If we have a  bumper season I may Change my mind....maybe! 

I have a hammer mill that will deal with prunings but I agree I will not be buying a "proper" shredder like I see back in Australia. Stick half a tree in it and the chips are blown back into the truck from the shredder that is towed behind. Those European shredders are very expensive and contracted to local government during the season, operations of the Indian ones are just plain dangerous. Here just go to the local sawmill or furniture factory and buy the waste (if they ask for money to clear the waste) if you want sawdust. 

Bottom line is all of those wastes are carbon sources. Make compost and understand that the C::N ratio has to be balanced. The carbon side is easy. Controlling the Nitrogen loss is the hard bit. This Siam Cement product interests me from that point of view.

[IsaanAussie]

29 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

It may be a little late to start this year, but consider a sunn hemp legume green manure cover crop during rainy season. Cut and leave lay as mulch, or incorporate to build soil organic matter content.  

 

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/grow-crops/grow-grasses-forage/sunn-hemp-soil-building-superhero-forage-potential/

and see YouTube videos. 

 

Fertilizer for Free: How to make the most from
biological nitrogen fixation v. 1.0
by Wojciech Majda

[email protected]
You might also want to check out my Website:
DesignerEcosystem.Com
Thank you for your time.
Wojciech Majda

Sun Hemp, mung beans or any other legume crop will increase the N level in the soil. The issue here in a rain fed rice growing community is being able to grow that after the rice harvest and before the soil moisture runs out. During the rainy season is not an option, we cannot eat sun hemp seeds. Plus they don't thrive in flooded fields obviously.

 

[kickstart]

6 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

I haven't got a lot of info on it either!  Was hoping to find someone on here who could recommend or condemn it.  The SCG site was glowing with praise for it....surprise  surprise!  With mango trees in India they use wood chippers to reduce the  waste material after prunning, so I have an open mind with using wood waste as a mulch.  Unfortunately I don't have the readies to buy a  wood chipper of decent size.  For the time being I am living off my Thai money and won't be buying in LOS.  And buying one on Alibaba using my Aussie money, and having it sent may leave me with a nasty tax and duty bill....as well as import agent fees. If we have a  bumper season I may Change my mind....maybe! 

Why not buy a small wood chipper here in Thailand plenty available ,we have been using our one today ,chopping Nappier grass ,it could be for chopping small  branches .

Unless you are trying to chop vast amount  a small one would do the job around here the tree legume Leucaena Leucocephala or Gratin in Thai is often chopped.

Look at patipong.com for Thai made chippers,I have seen them chopping small branches,they do ok.

[fruitman]

On 9/26/2019 at 10:35 AM, Grumpy John said:

I haven't got a lot of info on it either!  Was hoping to find someone on here who could recommend or condemn it.  The SCG site was glowing with praise for it....surprise  surprise!  With mango trees in India they use wood chippers to reduce the  waste material after prunning, so I have an open mind with using wood waste as a mulch.  Unfortunately I don't have the readies to buy a  wood chipper of decent size.  For the time being I am living off my Thai money and won't be buying in LOS.  And buying one on Alibaba using my Aussie money, and having it sent may leave me with a nasty tax and duty bill....as well as import agent fees. If we have a  bumper season I may Change my mind....maybe! 

Loads of woodchippers on sale at the kasetsart fair which is yearly in BKK in februari.

 

My MIL uses the leftovers from sugarcane as mulch...it's a good product and so is molasses made from cane.

 

The Thai like to burn everything but if you use it as mulch the ground will be protected from sun so you save water, it increases soil life, worms will open and air the soil....all kinds of wildlife will come, good and bad....

 

There are small Makita woodchippers sold in the West which might even fit in a large suitcase...and they are sure under the free import limit of 2000 us$...i thought the small makita ones cost 200 us$ or so. Just bring the receipt if there's one in your suitcase.

[Grumpy John]

On 9/26/2019 at 7:33 PM, drtreelove said:

It may be a little late to start this year, but consider a sunn hemp legume green manure cover crop during rainy season. Cut and leave lay as mulch, or incorporate to build soil organic matter content.  

 

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com/grow-crops/grow-grasses-forage/sunn-hemp-soil-building-superhero-forage-potential/

and see YouTube videos. 

 

Fertilizer for Free: How to make the most from
biological nitrogen fixation v. 1.0
by Wojciech Majda

[email protected]
You might also want to check out my Website:
DesignerEcosystem.Com
Thank you for your time.
Wojciech Majda

In an orchard it wouldn't be practical.  We have land put aside for tree production but the rice & corn land is rented out so nowhere to grow legiums which would have benefit as bio mass but we would be leaving behind the benefit in the improved soil.  Ku Din is not the perfect solution but it would be of benefit.  The rain here has eased up so we will be pumping water by the end of month and I want a mulch around each tree at #1 orchard....which is 780 trees last  count.   

[Grumpy John]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:03 PM, fruitman said:

Loads of woodchippers on sale at the kasetsart fair which is yearly in BKK in februari.

 

My MIL uses the leftovers from sugarcane as mulch...it's a good product and so is molasses made from cane.

 

The Thai like to burn everything but if you use it as mulch the ground will be protected from sun so you save water, it increases soil life, worms will open and air the soil....all kinds of wildlife will come, good and bad....

 

There are small Makita woodchippers sold in the West which might even fit in a large suitcase...and they are sure under the free import limit of 2000 us$...i thought the small makita ones cost 200 us$ or so. Just bring the receipt if there's one in your suitcase.

US$2000 Or less is duty free??? Only on farm equipment or would that  include wood chippers which aren't strictly farm equipment.  I ask as I did have a look at Alibaba and there are several manufactures who will sell one unit. If I can get a unit in duty free I just have the 7 percent tax And agent fee to pay. I have an engine here to use, all the bits and pieces to make a trailer.....except mudguards.....but hey,  this is LOS finding mudguards here is about the same chance (Buckley's or Nun)  as finding a  proper jockey wheel!  

[fruitman]

7 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

US$2000 Or less is duty free??? Only on farm equipment or would that  include wood chippers which aren't strictly farm equipment.  I ask as I did have a look at Alibaba and there are several manufactures who will sell one unit. If I can get a unit in duty free I just have the 7 percent tax And agent fee to pay. I have an engine here to use, all the bits and pieces to make a trailer.....except mudguards.....but hey,  this is LOS finding mudguards here is about the same chance (Buckley's or Nun)  as finding a  proper jockey wheel!  

yes 80.000 baht is free to import in the suitcase....my wife just passed them with a new watch from 1500 us$ , they picked her aside but since the watch was under 80.000 baht they let her pass.

 

I know the import rules are very misty, myself i always thought that 20.000 baht was the limit but it is 80.000 i just read..correct me if i 'm wrong.

[drtreelove]

8 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

In an orchard it wouldn't be practical.  We have land put aside for tree production but the rice & corn land is rented out so nowhere to grow legiums which would have benefit as bio mass but we would be leaving behind the benefit in the improved soil.  Ku Din is not the perfect solution but it would be of benefit.  The rain here has eased up so we will be pumping water by the end of month and I want a mulch around each tree at #1 orchard....which is 780 trees last  count.   

If is very practical in a orchard.  You miss the point, you grow the cover crop in the orchard itself, not in a remote field for export to the orchard. I grew legume green manure crops in our mango and lamyai orchards. 

[seajae]

what is its  N.P.K , knowing this would give a better idea if its any good, 

 

[drtreelove]

22 hours ago, seajae said:

what is its  N.P.K , knowing this would give a better idea if its any good, 

 

Not necessarily.  With the new generation complete organic fertilizers, high NPK is a detrimental quality, and is a pest magnet. A full range of slow release mineral nutrients, NPK values under 10, and beneficial biological inoculants is a better sign of "good". 

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/garden-fertilizer-zmaz06jjzraw

[Grumpy John]

DrTreeLove I see what you mean.  Will see if I can find more info about it on Youtube.   

 

Sadly NPK manufactured fertiliser is what a lot of mango farmers are using.  We use it but would like not to.  On the 780 trees we currently add 80kg of 46-0-0 and 150kg of 15-15-15 mixed together, after pruning.  Another 150kg 15-15-15 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate in July and once we have flowers (this month) 150kg of 13-13-24 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate (up from 0kg last year).  From the end of October onward it's all foliar sprayed with some Boron, Iron, Manganese, Zinc and Magnesium Sulphate.....which is where the wife and I differ.  I say Boron, Iron, Manganese and Zinc should be added earlier.....and added in small amounts with the NPK.....but I don't win every arguement! ????  We had the soil tested this year.  Surprisingly the report was pretty good.  The only element that was a bit high was Potassium.  Everything else within range. 

 

But times they are achangin' and we like a lot of other growers need to change too!

[IsaanAussie]

The sixty four dollar question. Where did you get the tests done and what level of nutrients etc did they test for? 

[drtreelove]

23 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

DrTreeLove I see what you mean.  Will see if I can find more info about it on Youtube.   

 

Sadly NPK manufactured fertiliser is what a lot of mango farmers are using.  We use it but would like not to.  On the 780 trees we currently add 80kg of 46-0-0 and 150kg of 15-15-15 mixed together, after pruning.  Another 150kg 15-15-15 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate in July and once we have flowers (this month) 150kg of 13-13-24 + 50kg of Magnesium Sulphate (up from 0kg last year).  From the end of October onward it's all foliar sprayed with some Boron, Iron, Manganese, Zinc and Magnesium Sulphate.....which is where the wife and I differ.  I say Boron, Iron, Manganese and Zinc should be added earlier.....and added in small amounts with the NPK.....but I don't win every arguement! ????  We had the soil tested this year.  Surprisingly the report was pretty good.  The only element that was a bit high was Potassium.  Everything else within range. 

 

But times they are achangin' and we like a lot of other growers need to change too!

With that many trees you have a big investment, and the economics of your fertilizer inputs are a major consideration. It a far bigger game than my hobby farm was, with 1 rai and 55 mango trees. 

 

I would suggest that you contact Evolare, TV Farming member. He doesn't post much but his wife's family business has been mentioned here as an up and coming supplier in Thailand of organic fertilizers/soil amendments. www.bonemeal.net. They are continually expanding their products line and I know that current customers include a large commercial mango grower, and a durian grower in the south. I trust their quality and business practices.  I am providing support for their soil testing program, using soil sample reports through the state of the art Logan Labs in the USA. This is the lab recommended by Michael Astera, The Ideal Soil, and Steve Solomon, The Intelligent Gardener.

[Grumpy John]

14 hours ago, drtreelove said:

With that many trees you have a big investment, and the economics of your fertilizer inputs are a major consideration. It a far bigger game than my hobby farm was, with 1 rai and 55 mango trees. 

 

I would suggest that you contact Evolare, TV Farming member. He doesn't post much but his wife's family business has been mentioned here as an up and coming supplier in Thailand of organic fertilizers/soil amendments. www.bonemeal.net. They are continually expanding their products line and I know that current customers include a large commercial mango grower, and a durian grower in the south. I trust their quality and business practices.  I am providing support for their soil testing program, using soil sample reports through the state of the art Logan Labs in the USA. This is the lab recommended by Michael Astera, The Ideal Soil, and Steve Solomon, The Intelligent Gardener.

Message sent.  Bonemeal.....my dad used blood and bone Way back when I was a kid.  The old boy was an environmentalist of sorts and did things a bit differently to the sheep and wheat farmers in the district. Some thought he was a square peg in a round hole....to which he replied "Obviously the hole is not big enough"!  

[seajae]

On 10/3/2019 at 6:16 PM, drtreelove said:

Not necessarily.  With the new generation complete organic fertilizers, high NPK is a detrimental quality, and is a pest magnet. A full range of slow release mineral nutrients, NPK values under 10, and beneficial biological inoculants is a better sign of "good". 

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/garden-fertilizer-zmaz06jjzraw

the differing N.P.K amounts tell you what the fertilizer is actually doing, nitrogen is for green growth, phosphurous is great for roots as well as flowers and general plant health/strength and potassium improves fruiting. The amounts of each is very important to the way a tree grows, in Australia I had around 5,000 trees and here I have around 600, I monitor what I use on them to control the way they grow, each element is adjusted to suit their growth. Trace elements are also important as they help the uptake of the fertilizer, the N.P.K are very important to know if you want your trees to grow well and be healthy, organic is the best if you can get it but commercial can be controlled if you cant

[IsaanAussie]

Well said Seajae, agree absolutely. We are in a typical Isaan HomMali growing village and this year the rains were late. I spent some time looking at water stress in rice and used less than half the NPK total crop fertiliser as our first spread. A few weeks ago we spread a further reduced amount but still based on "normal crop" values. The only guy here with an opinion told me I was using too much N and my higher rice plants would blow/fall over. I tried to explain that urea as a first spread was not going to help root growth but I gave up he was convinced 46-0-0 then 16-16-8 was the "only" way. We will see within the next couple of months.

[Grumpy John]

"The only guy here with an opinion "  Tis ironic that the local experts usually tell you different things.

 

I do youtube videos for my kids and grand kids and other family back home so I though I would add it to the post to show how good the orchard looks at the moment.  Had a little to much rain last night and this morning (28mm).  Will be giving the trees a little feed of 15-15-15 and holding off with the 8-24-24 till those buds turn into flowers.

 

Yesterday at #1 orchard.

[Grumpy John]

I got on to the SCG website Thursday and sent them an email requesting pricing and if there is a minimum amount for delivery.  I gave them the wifes phone # and someone rang while I was out in the orchard. 

The guy said he would send all the information needed to the email supplied......  Well, I am still waiting!  This is not the first time it has happened, only a few weeks ago I had the same thing happen with a chemical company.   Are these companies not interested in dealing with us because we are the end user, or is there some other reason?  I would be interested to know.

[drtreelove]

On 10/8/2019 at 9:49 PM, seajae said:

the differing N.P.K amounts tell you what the fertilizer is actually doing, nitrogen is for green growth, phosphurous is great for roots as well as flowers and general plant health/strength and potassium improves fruiting. The amounts of each is very important to the way a tree grows, in Australia I had around 5,000 trees and here I have around 600, I monitor what I use on them to control the way they grow, each element is adjusted to suit their growth. Trace elements are also important as they help the uptake of the fertilizer, the N.P.K are very important to know if you want your trees to grow well and be healthy, organic is the best if you can get it but commercial can be controlled if you cant

I agree that it is important to monitor plant nutrients and fertilizer inputs, but the focus on NPK is only a small part of the picture and often leads to overlooking the other essential nutrients and their relationships to each other and to plant health and productivity. 

 

We should be considering all the major cations Ca, Mg, K and Na and anions S and P, plus the minor, micronutrients B, Mn, Fe, Cu and Zn and their balance within the context of the Cation Exchange Capacity, pH and soil OM%. Plus trace minerals.  To shortcut this and only focus on NPK is a limited view and inadquate to explain many disorders that arise from nutrient deficiencies and imbalances. 

 

For example, What about Calcium and its importance for metabolic functions and cell wall strength. And what about Boron, which is important for Ca metabolism?

https://www.croplife.com/crop-inputs/the-importance-of-calcium-in-plant-nutrition/

 

And what about the Ca to Mg ratio? If not balanced, high Mg to Ca can cause a tight soil that doesn't drain well. 

https://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/six-secrets-to-soil-test-success-1/

 

What about Sulfur, one of the most important plant nutrients but usually not included in chemical fertilizer formulas or even tested for in conventional soil tests. 

https://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/sulfur

 

The new and vastly improved approach to agronomy, soil fertility and plant nutrition is worth getting in touch with.  

 

 

[CLW]

A few posts mention the use of 46-0-0 which is Urea in most, if not all cases.

Even conventional soil scientists oppose the use of Urea as nitrogen source because it is really bad for the soil and as the Dr. mentioned may lead to excessive growth with soft tissues and increase the susceptibility for diseases.

Nothing wrong if you want to use chemical N fertiliser but maybe consider another source / component.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[CLW]

I got on to the SCG website Thursday and sent them an email requesting pricing and if there is a minimum amount for delivery.  I gave them the wifes phone # and someone rang while I was out in the orchard. 
The guy said he would send all the information needed to the email supplied......  Well, I am still waiting!  This is not the first time it has happened, only a few weeks ago I had the same thing happen with a chemical company.   Are these companies not interested in dealing with us because we are the end user, or is there some other reason?  I would be interested to know.

Unfortunately happens quite often that you as customer has to chase the companies for quotes or products.
Unless they have a dedicated online shop where you can place a order directly it is often a time and nerve-wracking process.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk