Alcohol 'is More Dangerous Than Ecstasy'

[taxexile]

Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstasy'

By Roger Highfield, Science Editor , Daily Telegraph.

Last Updated: 12:15pm GMT 23/03/2007

Alcohol is ranked much more harmful than the Class A drug ecstasy in a controversial new classification system proposed by a team of leading scientists.

The table, published today in The Lancet medical journal, was drawn up by a team of highly respected experts led by Professor David Nutt, from the University of Bristol, and Professor Colin Blakemore, chief executive of the Medical Research Council.

The authors proposes that drugs should be classified by the amount of harm that they do, rather than the sharp A, B, and C divisions in the UK Misuse of Drugs Act.

They say the basis of the Act is ill-defined, opaque, and seemingly arbitrary and overestimates the risks of ecstasy, which kills around ten people annually of the half a million people who use it every weekend, while neglecting those of alcohol, a legal substance which kills more than 300 annually by acute poisoning, and many tens of thousands by road traffic accidents, cirrhosis, gut and heart disease.

In the paper, the team argues that it would make much more sense for drugs to be reclassified on a rational basis that can be updated as new evidence emerges, and more easily than the current rigid category system now in use.

Prof Blakemore added that policies of the past four decades “clearly have not worked”, given the ubiquity and low price of illegal drugs, and that fresh thinking is now required.

Today’s call to overhaul the UK drug classification system, which will be examined by the forthcoming UK Drug Policy Commission, is likely to receive popular public support, according to research into attitudes to drugs by the Academy of Medical Sciences’ DrugsFutures project.

Harmful drugs are currently regulated according to classification systems that purport to relate to the harms and risks of each drug.

However, “these are generally neither specified nor transparent, which reduces confidence in their accuracy and undermines health education messages,” said Prof Blakemore.

“The most striking observation is that there is no statistical correlation between this ranking of harm of drugs and the ABC classification.”

In the new system legal drugs, such as alcohol and nicotine, are ranked alongside illegal drugs.

The new ranking places alcohol and tobacco in the upper half of the league table. These socially accepted drugs were judged more harmful than cannabis, and substantially more dangerous than the Class A drugs LSD, 4-methylthioamphetamine and ecstasy.

“Alcohol is not far behind demonised terrors of the street such as heroin and cocaine,” said Prof Blakemore.

But the conclusions are likely to be ignored, according to coauthor Prof David Nutt from the University of Bristol, who has worked with the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs.

Because some individuals with a particularly genetic make-up are at greater risk, as has been seen with rare deaths connected with ecstasy, ministers have been reluctant to change classifications despite the relative safety for the rest of the population.

Several millennia of human experience with alcohol, its pervasiveness in industrialised cultures, and the US experience with alcohol prohibition (1920–32) make it unlikely that any industrialised society will criminalise alcohol use, he said.

But that still leaves taxation and regulation as methods of control. “Alcohol is a drug we should take very seriously.”

The team identified three main factors that together determine the harm associated with any drug of potential abuse: the physical harm to the individual user caused by the drug; the tendency of the drug to induce dependence and addiction; the effect of drug use on families, communities, and society to produce the rankings shown below:

[jumnien]

By this reasoning, nuclear weapons are relatively harmless as they haven't killed anyone in years.

[PhilHarries]

But breast milk must be the most dangerous of all. 100% of those who drank breast milk as babies die!

[taxexile]

By this reasoning, nuclear weapons are relatively harmless as they haven't killed anyone in years.

quite right.

just as an unprimed and unused nuclear weapon poses no danger , an unopened bottle of whiskey will not get you drunk ,

[jumnien]

It's not so much alcohol that is the sole culprit. Alcohol is an refined carbohydrate and it's the overconsumption of refined carbohydrates that is killing hundreds of millions globally. Cirrhosis, accidents, violence and obesity related diseases as a direct result of refined carbohydrates is rampant. Ecstacy just seems to cause a predilection for anxiety disorders in some people and really isn't consumed by a large part of the population.

[jayjayjayjay]

Professor David Nutt.. couldn't help but to point this one out

[jumnien]

To be serious, it's true that alcohol harms far more people than ecstacy which probably throws a few thousand kids over the edge every year who probably would have vegetized themselves with speed anyway if ecstasy had not been available. I don't think we're ever going to see an "I take too much ecstacy" forum on Thai Visa anytime soon.

[JR Texas]

To be serious, it's true that alcohol harms far more people than ecstacy which probably throws a few thousand kids over the edge every year who probably would have vegetized themselves with speed anyway if ecstasy had not been available. I don't think we're ever going to see an "I take too much ecstacy" forum on Thai Visa anytime soon.

JR Texas: I wrote a paper, many years ago, comparing legal and illegal drugs in terms of total cost to society. I do not remember the figures, but the data showed that legal drugs were far more destructive than illegal drugs.

Hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of lives are lost each year due to alcohol and tobacco. Almost no lives are lost due to, say, marijuana. Our response to drug use is culturally driven and has nothing to do with destructiveness.

Part of the plan is to create a permanent underclass........keep them in jail......all of the possible liberal minded free thinking people that might actually chose to explore what is true and not true rather than accept cultural norms.

It is important that we stop saying things like "alcohol and drugs," or "cigarettes and drugs." By doing this we separate them into two categories: NON DRUGS AND DRUGS. This allows us to ignore one and attack the other.

It would be more productive to say "illegal and legal drugs." This makes it clear that both are drugs and the only difference between them relates to specific cultural concepts of what is legal vs. illegal, something that has changed over the years.

Make no mistake: IN TERMS OF NUMBER OF DEATHS AND DOLLAR COST TO SOCIETY, LEGAL DRUGS ARE FAR MORE DESTRUCTIVE THAN ILLEGAL DRUGS.

I do not advocate abusing drugs of any kind, legal or illegal. I am simply stating a fact.....

[jumnien]

Quite true, Tex!

Although, I'm not agreeing with your statement about marijuana (no lives lost). Lots of families ripped apart with addiction issues and fatality of a spiritual nature in many users over time. Still, right, you are; no where near the damage that the demon alcohol causes worldwide.

Edited March 24, 2007 by mdeland

[Neeranam]

IF alcohol were invented today, it would be banned.

I've being saying the same as these scientists for years - well after I quit drinking.

I totally agree with the chart they did, althouigh I know alcohol causes more crime than heroin where I come from. Alcohol is legal there too. If heroin were legal, there would be no crime due to it.

[Neeranam]

Lots of families ripped apart with addiction issues and fatality of a spiritual nature in many users over time

LOL I don't know who's worse - my old dope smoking friends(20 years everyday use) or the ones who take sleeping pills and other prescription drugs.

The bomb Shankar Sadhus in India may disagree though, or the Rastafairies.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Neeranam

[JR Texas]

Lots of families ripped apart with addiction issues and fatality of a spiritual nature in many users over time

LOL I don't know who's worse - my old dope smoking friends(20 years everyday use) or the ones who take sleeping pills and other prescription drugs.

The bomb Shankar Sadhus in India may disagree though, or the Rastafairies.

JR Texas: I just did a search on the internet and, not surprisingly, found a lot of distorted facts being presented by "official sources." I did manage to run across this:

http://www.tobacco.org/news/222676.html

Is it accurate? I don't know. But it basically states that, in Canada, illegal and legal drugs combined cost US$40 billion. Of that, 20% is from illegal drugs.

My earlier study centered on the USA. As I said, I do not remember the precise figures and can't find it online now. But I am sure in the USA illegal drug use accounted for (back in 1998) far less than 20% of the total cost to society........I think it was about 5% (illegal drugs) with 95% (legal drugs).

[jumnien]

Despite the obvious social costs, we won't be seeing laws against alcohol and other refined carbohydrates anytime soon, though there is a "nanny state" mentality developing in the United States that would like to do just that!

[jdinasia]

13 posts .... not a mention of Thailand

[soundman]

After working in the entertainment industry for more than 15 years, I have seen first-hand evidence of all sorts of drug abuse & addiction.

Ecstasy in itself appears to a fairly harmless & benign drug. This is true until you throw in some other factors.

Going on an ecstacy binge, for a month or three, will more than likely leave the participant broke or dabbling in the minor side of the drug trade. After the binge, according to many people I have spoken too, said participant always feels their brains are not back to normal for up to year. Also, it is highly likely for said participant to start experimenting with many harder drugs, as alot of previous inhibitions are removed by the ecstacy itself.

In my opinion these are a grading of few commonly used drugs & there social impact (read destructiveness) from long term use & addiction. (1st being worst)

Heroine.

Methamphetamines.

Crack Cocaine.

Cannabis.

Cocaine

Alchohol.

MDMA.

Ketamine.

Tobacco.

Personally, after having seen long term effects of most of the above, I choose to absteine as much as possible. That said, living in Thailand, I have found that I drink & smoke more than I used to in Australia. Bad Habits - Very hard to break.

What's this thread got to do with Thailand anyway???

Cheers,

Soundman.

[PeaceBlondie]

As the ever vigilant jdinasia has reminded us again, we need to relate this to Thailand.

Okay. Have you seen any drunks in Thailand? Have you read reports of them driving and killing? I like that ad I see on Thai TV, in Thai, of the crazed drunk in the rural village, ranting like a maniac. I hope it's an anti-drinking public announcement.

I met a nice Thai gentleman at the pool last week. He was respecting me as a teacher, making small talk, etc. Then he boasted, "I drink whiskey every day!" Huh? Is that the test of Thai machismo, that he gets stinking stupid, drinking a poison on purpose?

Does Thailand have a drinking problem bigger than its political problem? Which politicians are hopeless alcoholics? Is alcohol more of a problem than prostitution? Are the customers drunks, too? What attitude do average Thais have toward alcohol? Isn't it against the Buddhist religion in Thailand, or only if you've had two bottles of whiskey?

[jasreeve17]

The report is clearly misleading.

(both with regard to inside and outside of Thailand)

Other posters have touched upon it too;-

1) If I drink a beer, it has limited effect. I can then drink more beers to increase that effect, slowly. If I do this daily, then over a period of time, I will make myself sick, in further time (quite a lot) I will die.

2) If I take an ectasy tablet, then strong effects will hit me, all at once. If I do this every day then I will get very sick, very quickly, in further time (not much) I will die.

[some idiots out there may disagree, for them I suggest a scientific test! - You take an ectasy tablet every day, and I'll drink five pints of beer every day. We'll see who gets really sick first. You will.]

People use alcohol too much, perhaps every day, because it is relatively mild - although very deadly over a period of time.

Ectasy is used less frequently, because it is relatively strong.

The two are not comparable.

Ectasy is very much worse for you.

Jason

[soi lurker]

Its about time people stuck their neck out and shone awareness on just how much of a killer alcohol and tobacco are. Legalization should not make these killers acceptable. Proof is in the statistics.

[jdinasia]

<---- lights a cigarrette and opens a beer .... nd ponders how this story relates to Thailand .... still

[jasreeve17]

Its about time people stuck their neck out and shone awareness on just how much of a killer alcohol and tobacco are. Legalization should not make these killers acceptable. Proof is in the statistics.

I agree to a large extent.

But, on the other side, people have a right to choose, and in many countries (UK for cigs, Norway for alcohol) they are taxed to the hilt - which is a form of legislation.

JDinAsia - you must be very bored today (you could consider dropping an ectasy tab too, the day might brighten up...).

[PeaceBlondie]

ecstasy and marijuana are not killing Thais. The use (abuse) of alcohol and tobacco kills many Thais every day. Thais, like most Westerners, don't merely drink alcohol moderately (such as one beer every month), and cigarrettes are almost universally addicting.

Alcohol affects you immediately (okay, maybe an hour to drink two drinks). 3% alcohol content is not nothing; it is something. Ethanol is a poison, a toxin, which is why it's called 'intoxicating.'

[jasreeve17]

ecstasy and marijuana are not killing Thais. The use (abuse) of alcohol and tobacco kills many Thais every day. Thais, like most Westerners, don't merely drink alcohol moderately (such as one beer every month), and cigarrettes are almost universally addicting.

Alcohol affects you immediately (okay, maybe an hour to drink two drinks). 3% alcohol content is not nothing; it is something. Ethanol is a poison, a toxin, which is why it's called 'intoxicating.'

Stating obvious facts means nothing, and is pointless.

Have a look at the early posts from the likes of mdeland, then look at the op post.

On the list of dangerous things ectasy is rightly rated much higher than alchol. As per the OP.

On the list of things that intoxicates, perhaps love is at the top, but that is not the OP's point.

On the list of dangerous things, old age is the biggest killer, but that is not the OP's point either.

All applicable to Thailand.

[bkkmadness]

In my opinion these are a grading of few commonly used drugs & there social impact (read destructiveness) from long term use & addiction. (1st being worst)

Heroine.

Methamphetamines.

Crack Cocaine.

Cannabis.

Cocaine

Alchohol.

MDMA.

Ketamine.

Tobacco.

Soundman.

You can't seriously be saying that long term cannabis use is more destructive than long term cocaine, alcohol and tobacco use?

[JR Texas]

In my opinion these are a grading of few commonly used drugs & there social impact (read destructiveness) from long term use & addiction. (1st being worst)

Heroine.

Methamphetamines.

Crack Cocaine.

Cannabis.

Cocaine

Alchohol.

MDMA.

Ketamine.

Tobacco.

Soundman.

You can't seriously be saying that long term cannabis use is more destructive than long term cocaine, alcohol and tobacco use?

JR Texas: JR Texas: It is interesting that the question has come up as to what this has to do with Thailand. I thought that was obvious...........Thailand, like all other countries, has an illegal and legal drug problem. And in Thailand, like in the USA, there is a massive war against illegal drugs. Nobody goes to jail for engaging and/or abusing legal drugs in Thailand.

The main issue centers on the social costs of legal and illegal drug use. If you compare the social costs, legal drugs are far more destructive than illegal drugs. There is supported by facts.......but so is global warming and people come out of the woodwork to deny it.

Even illegal drug abuse with strong illegal drugs like heroin, while destructive and costly, tend to have a rapid solution: DEATH. And, what needs to be emphasized, is that very few people inject heroin (compared to the masses that put alcohol in their bodies or the witches brew of poisons that are found in tobacco substances).

I think it was Soundman who posted this list from most destructive to least destructive:

Heroine.

Methamphetamines.

Crack Cocaine.

Cannabis.

Cocaine

Alchohol.

MDMA.

Ketamine.

Tobacco.

I respectfully disagree and would change it as follows (from most destructive to least destructive in terms of overall impact on society and not necessarily on the individual): MDMA? Ketamine? Sorry........Old School.

Tobacco

Alchohol

Methamphetamines/Cocaine

Heroine

Cannabis probably does not even belong in the list........it can lead to lung cancer down the road. But surely it is the least destructive of all of these illegal/legal drugs.

[bkkmadness]

Cannabis probably does not even belong in the list........it can lead to lung cancer down the road.

I think this is a common misconception based on the presumption that cannabis is only smoked.

[jaidam]

Don't see how they can say cannabis is worse than solvents. That is glue sniffing, aerosols ,paint thinner etc isn't it?

[Scaramanga]

The report is clearly misleading.

(both with regard to inside and outside of Thailand)

Other posters have touched upon it too;-

1) If I drink a beer, it has limited effect. I can then drink more beers to increase that effect, slowly. If I do this daily, then over a period of time, I will make myself sick, in further time (quite a lot) I will die.

2) If I take an ectasy tablet, then strong effects will hit me, all at once. If I do this every day then I will get very sick, very quickly, in further time (not much) I will die.

[some idiots out there may disagree, for them I suggest a scientific test! - You take an ectasy tablet every day, and I'll drink five pints of beer every day. We'll see who gets really sick first. You will.]

People use alcohol too much, perhaps every day, because it is relatively mild - although very deadly over a period of time.

Ectasy is used less frequently, because it is relatively strong.

The two are not comparable.

Ectasy is very much worse for you.

Jason

You clearly haven't thought this through. The effect you will receive from your ecstacy tablet will be in proportion to the quantity of MDMA present in the said tablet. If i take a tablet every day with a very small quantity of MDMA i can assure you that strong effects will not hit me all at once, and your 5 pints of beer every day will probably be worse for you, depending on alcohol content.

Whether either of them generate strong or mild effects depends on the quantities consumed.

Far more people die proportionally, either directly or indirectly as a result of alcohol than ecstasy, and it is responsible for far more social problems.

Think of how many abusive drunks terrorise the streets and their homes, family and children. Someone on ecstasy just walks around with a big grin on their face.

Having taken ecstasy regularly in the past, and still being a regular drinker i can assure you that alcohol is a far worse drug for populations to be acceptive of, and you won't find many people who have taken both regularly who would disagree with me.

Edited March 24, 2007 by Scaramanga

[jasreeve17]

Scaramanga; I have thought it through, very well.

I agree that as far as social impact goes alcohol is the most damaging drug. Obviously. Because it is, overwelmingly, the most used drug.

If ectasy was used at the same level as alcohol, i.e. we all took copious quantities of ectasy on a daily basis, then this would kill much more people than alcohol.

(MDMA quantities / % of alcohol.... I'm talking about your average ectasy tablet and your average pint of beer - don't distort it.)

This is why we have tight laws on the more dangerous drugs.

That is my single and only point, and I'm correct.

I'm sad to hear that you used to take ectasy regularly - pathetic! Was that your power ending? I'm not impressed. I used to take ten tabs a night - but I would't try to make an intellectual point by reiterating my stupity!

Your last sentence is an absolute lie.

[pampal]

Alcohol is much more of a problem than any other drug because it is the drug that is most abused.

Cannabis shouldn't even be on the list.

[kayo]

But breast milk must be the most dangerous of all. 100% of those who drank breast milk as babies die!

hadn't heard that one in years!

In terms of this debate, my opinion tends to merge with the comments JR Texas has made.

Alcohol and smokes, both of which I use heavily, are possibly the worst of a whole bunch of bad drugs out there.

The very fact that, as someone pointed out, they are relatively mild, makes them more dangerous in my eyes. Addictions creep up on you over years and take hold.

The health issues aside though, and focussing more on behavioural issues, I've seen more bad behaviour in my years as a bartender relating to alcohol than I have seen in people on any other drugs, except maybe cocaine. And even then *I saw a lot of cocaine abuse when I lived in Guatemala) it wasn't so much the cocaine that led to bad behaviour, but due to cocaine, some people could drink excessive amounts of alcohol, and that was really the issue.

But at the end of the day though, regardless of legal/non legal issues, the bottom line comes to control, self control, and knowing how to imbibe whatever chosen product responsably.

In this day and age in which a large %age of the populace constantly seek excape, be it in drink, drugs, movies, books, whatever, there is a visible decline of socially responsable behaviour.

Man oh man, how I wish I had lived through the late 60's....