Compulsory Health insurance for 0-A visa applicants effective 31st October

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, uncleeagle said:

If that person is currently abroad and flies back into Thailand after 31 st October, will they be denied entry unless they have obtained a recognised insurance policy while abroad?

No

It will only apply to OA visas issued after the insurance requirement goes into effect.

[AussieBob18]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

According to what I read it should not be applied to people arriving with visas issued prior to Oct 31st 2019. Although I believe you made the statement already ' good luck persuading an arrogant IO he might be wrong on that point'! 

 

I see the insurance requirement is already listed on the London Thai Embassy website.

 

Your friend should just continue to do Extensions at Immigration, as no insurance is yet specified.

Nothing on Thai Embassy Australia website yet.

 

What he has been doing is getting the automatic 12 months extension (net 2 years), and then getting a new O-A Visa during his next visit to Australia (which is myself getting all the documents and foirms completed and then submitting it for him)  He lives in a 'semi-remote' part of Thailand, but the big problem is that both he and his wife dont understand the Visa Extension process.  Prior to my involvement he was visiting with a Tourist Visa 3 times a year - he is far too old to travel mnore than once a year (heavy smoker).  They once went to the Immigration Office in nearest City with my list of questions etc. and they came away with no idea what to do. But you are right -  Extension (and Permission to Re-enter) is the best option - I could try to walk him through it from here - but I think they will have to use a Migration Agent.

 

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

What he has been doing is getting the automatic 12 months extension (net 2 years), and then getting a new O-A Visa during his next visit to Australia (which is myself getting all the documents and foirms completed and then submitting it for him)  He lives in a 'semi-remote' part of Thailand, but the big problem is that both he and his wife dont understand the Visa Extension process.

It appears you don't know the difference either Bob!

 

He wasn't getting an automatic extension, he was getting another 1 year entry from his valid O-A Visa.

[AussieBob18]

35 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

For the initial issue of the O-A, you send a copy of the insurance documents with your application. If it is approved they annotate your passport to indicate you have the required insurance. They haven't made it clear what happens if you subsequently renew your insurance (e.g. after 11 months) and exit and re-enter. 

You might be right about that and if you are there is a big problem.  The policy is for 12 months, so unless you have already bought your airline ticket on the assumption that you will be approved for an O-A Visa, you will not know the policy start date - which has to be the date you enter.  And that also means you have already paid 50K Baht (and up) for a 12 months insurance policy assuming you are going to be approved for an O-A Visa. That is not soemthing that I would do as there is a risk you could be rejected.  

 

My initial read of the process, taking account of the above, was that they expect you to get the insurance policy after you get the O-A Visa approved and have bought the airline ticket/s and therefore know the date you will be entering Thailand.  But I now fear you may be right. 

 

Does anyone know for sure when you have to actually get the insurance??  Is it a requirement to have paid for the airline ticket and the required insurance policy, before you lodge your O-A Visa application?  Can you buy it online after getting O-A Visa approved, but before you arrive? Can you buy it upon arrival - at the airport?

[AussieBob18]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

It appears you don't know the difference either Bob!

 

He wasn't getting an automatic extension, he was getting another 1 year entry from his valid O-A Visa.

If you have an O-A Visa and leave Thailand and re-enter before the 12 months is up, you get an Extension of your Permission to Stay in Thailand (Automatically). But if you leave again after the first 12 months period (during the automatic Extension period), you will need a Permission to Re-enter Permit - or you need a new O-A Visa. This is what he did before as trying to get an Extension in Thailand did not work out. Why exactly I do not know as I was not there - he is old and not very literate, and she can hardly speak English.  

 

 

[Exploring Thailand]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Does anyone know for sure when you have to actually get the insurance??  Is it a requirement to have paid for the airline ticket and the required insurance policy, before you lodge your O-A Visa application?  Can you buy it online after getting O-A Visa approved, but before you arrive? Can you buy it upon arrival - at the airport?

You have to submit the insurance documents with your application. See this page. 

 

One way around the problem might be to post-date the start of the policy. Have the policy start on the day you enter Thailand. Then if the visa is refused, cancel the policy. This would, of course, require the co-operation of the insurance companies. I think in the UK insurance policies have a mandatory cooling-off period, so you cancel within a week of signing, but I somehow doubt that's the case in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, AussieBob18 said:

If you have an O-A Visa and leave Thailand and re-enter before the 12 months is up, you get an Extension of your Permission to Stay in Thailand (Automatically).

It is not a extension of stay. It is a new one year entry that a OA visa allows up to the date it expires.

[AussieBob18]

Well <deleted> me - I might actually be right about it being applied to Retirement Extensions.

 

 

[AussieBob18]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

It is not a extension of stay. It is a new one year entry that a OA visa allows up to the date it expires.

Confused Joe.  Are you saying that if I re-enter 1 day before the first 12 months period, that I get another 12 months O-A Visa and that I can leave and come back in again within that period?

[AussieBob18]

6 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

You have to submit the insurance documents with your application. See this page. 

 

One way around the problem might be to post-date the start of the policy. Have the policy start on the day you enter Thailand. Then if the visa is refused, cancel the policy. This would, of course, require the co-operation of the insurance companies. I think in the UK insurance policies have a mandatory cooling-off period, so you cancel within a week of signing, but I somehow doubt that's the case in Thailand.

That means you have to have an arrival date organised/decided and pay for thew 12 months insurance, before you can lodge an O-A Visa application.  I very much doubt that a Thai insurance company, or a Thai based franchise/agent of an overseas insurance company, will allow you to cancel and give you a refund.  They really have not thought this through have they. 

[Sheryl]

 
Sure, I don't blame them for creating the policy. What I don't understand why it so expensive for the benefits provided. 
 
O-A policy
Premium 58000  Max per disability per year 645,000
Maxima Policy
Premium 68000 Max per disability per year  5,000,000
 
With one of their standard policies a premium of 68000 buys you 5 million coverage. With their special O-A policy 58000 buys you a tenth of that.
 
 

It is do expensive because:

1) it is a policy made solely for people over 50. That's a high risk group claims-wise as well as a smaller group. Regular oroducts are aimed at multiple ages and larger pool of 8nsured.

2) they included OPD cover. That always sends premiums way up because unlike hospitalization cover, the use of which is only occasional and a matter of chance, most people do visit a doctor one or more times in a given year and can do so more ot less as they choose, tending to be more if they have paid for OPD cover. Basically they assume people will claim near the maximum every year for OPD and raise the premium accordingly. It is more like prepaying for 40k if opd than insurance. An absolutely stupid and unnecessary measure.

They could and should have simply asked local insurers to add premium bands for older people to their existing ptofucts instead of creating new ones aimed at a small pool of customers all in high risk age group.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thaivisa Health Protect]

11 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

You have to submit the insurance documents with your application. See this page. 

 

One way around the problem might be to post-date the start of the policy. Have the policy start on the day you enter Thailand. Then if the visa is refused, cancel the policy. This would, of course, require the co-operation of the insurance companies. I think in the UK insurance policies have a mandatory cooling-off period, so you cancel within a week of signing, but I somehow doubt that's the case in Thailand.

Thai VIsa Protect and Pacific Cross policies can issue policy up to 6 months away from start date, people are also able to cancel policy and recieve the premium refund minus claims paid, which is this case would be a mute point.

[Exploring Thailand]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is do expensive because:

1) it is a policy made solely for people over 50. That's a high risk group claims-wise as well as a smaller group. Regular oroducts are aimed at multiple ages and larger pool of 8nsured.
 

That is the explanation they gave. I don't understand it.  What difference does it make who else is in the group? If they are saying that 50 year-olds will get lower premiums because they are in group with 20-year olds, then they are saying that the 20 year-olds will get higher premiums because they are in the group with 50 year-olds. I don't think insurance premiums work like that.

 

A premium is based on the risk assessment of the individual insured. If a 20 year-old is a group with a 50-year old, the 20-year old will have a low premium and the 50-year old will have a high premium. 

 

If a group is made up entirely of older people, they will be making more claims but they will all be paying higher premiums so the group pot will be bigger. If a group is made up entirely of younger people they will be paying smaller premiums so the group pot will be smaller, but they will be making fewer claims.

 

[Exploring Thailand]

27 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Well <deleted> me - I might actually be right about it being applied to Retirement Extensions.

 

 

I'd be surprised if that's the case. It seems pretty clear they've decided 400k is the magic number. You need to have that covered either by money in the bank or by insurance.  The anecdote in that thread looks like a case of Chinese Whispers. Maybe the boss half-understood the new regulations, the staff at desk 8 half understood the boss, ...

[lamyai3]

18 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It does mention dates. See provision 2 and last sentence of the order which clearly says Effective 31 October. 

 

However the wording of para 2 could be interpreted to mean that it is effective for anyone entering on an O-A  from 31 October onward rather than anyone whose visa was issued on that date,  and that's a big difference. Have to wait and see how IOs apply this to people newly arriving from the 31st onward.

I should have worded it better - I mean dates of Non O-A's, not of the effective date of the new rules... basically the same question as you set out in your second paragraph.

 

I'm affected by this issue directly as I have a Non O-A issued back in April and flights arranged in early November, so I'm extremely concerned about might happen when I pass through immigration.

[Sheryl]

I should have worded it better - I mean dates of Non O-A's, not of the effective date of the new rules... basically the same question as you set out in your second paragraph.

 

I'm affected by this issue directly as I have a Non O-A issued back in April and flights arranged in early November, so I'm extremely concerned about might happen when I pass through immigration.

Is it possible for you to move up the date and enter on Oct 30? That is what I would do.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

That is the explanation they gave. I don't understand it.  What difference does it make who else is in the group? If they are saying that 50 year-olds will get lower premiums because they are in group with 20-year olds, then they are saying that the 20 year-olds will get higher premiums because they are in the group with 50 year-olds. I don't think insurance premiums work like that.

 

A premium is based on the risk assessment of the individual insured. If a 20 year-old is a group with a 50-year old, the 20-year old will have a low premium and the 50-year old will have a high premium. 

 

If a group is made up entirely of older people, they will be making more claims but they will all be paying higher premiums so the group pot will be bigger. If a group is made up entirely of younger people they will be paying smaller premiums so the group pot will be smaller, but they will be making fewer claims.

 

While premiums are higher for older agrs there is a degree of cost sharing and the younger people do in fact partially offset the costs for the older (and the healthy for the sick). Were this not so, the premiums for people over 60 would be far higher, and likely more than anyone could afford.

 

The special "longterm stay" policies responded to this problem by offering ridiculously low level of cover...negating the whole ppint of insurance.

 

There is also always an economy of scale, the more people insured the lower the associated admin costs per person. Products designed for small markets will always be more expensive.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[lamyai3]

Is it possible for you to move up the date and enter on Oct 30? Thst is what I would do.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yes, short of an official clarification I can't see any other option than to try and move the arrival date forward to 30th. I'm really hoping there will be an official clarification though. I wonder if it might be worth asking the embassy in London?

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

57 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I'd be surprised if that's the case. It seems pretty clear they've decided 400k is the magic number. You need to have that covered either by money in the bank or by insurance.  The anecdote in that thread looks like a case of Chinese Whispers. Maybe the boss half-understood the new regulations, the staff at desk 8 half understood the boss, ...

 

There have now been 4 or 5 different threads on this subject in the past couple days, and the details of this plan have only gotten more confused and vague as time has gone along.

 

The latest report from The Nation today and the comments therein by the Public Health Ministry guy certainly did NOT suggest the new requirement is only going to be applied to Non-O visa holders.... just as the inclusion of the insurance requirement for Non-O visas in the retirement extensions section of Immigration's regulations equally clouded the waters.

 

It's a mess... plain and simple.

 

 

[lamyai3]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

What part of 'This order is effective as of October 31st, 2019' didn't you understand on order 548/2562 and 300/2562.

The part which doesn't specify whether the rules apply to Non O-A's issued prior to 31st October, as opposed to those issued after that date. Which ought to have been clear to you if you'd read (and quoted) my follow up sentence:

 

"This to my mind is the most pertinent issue, how will they deal with people who already have visas issued prior to the rule change?" 

[uncleeagle]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

No

It will only apply to OA visas issued after the insurance requirement goes into effect.

Thanks Joe

 

Do you have at hand an accurate translation of the police order indicating that existing O A visas and their extensions will be exempt from the new requirements?

 

If so could you copy and paste it?

 

It seems strange to me that the new requirements would only apply to newly issued visas. It also seems strange that busy immigration officers are now going to examine insurance policies at the airport as a queue of people are wating to be admitted. It seems more logical for new visa applicants to be subject to the new requirement and then all extensions no matter when they got their initial visa. Then again, this is Thailand and Thailand is rarely logical and usually strange.

 

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

The part which doesn't specify whether the rules apply to Non O-A's issued prior to 31st October, as opposed to those issued after that date. Which ought to have been clear to you if you'd read (and quoted) my follow up sentence:

 

"This to my mind is the most pertinent issue, how will they deal with people who already have visas issued prior to the rule change?" 

 

The police guidance memo appears to focus on the date of attempted entry into Thailand -- not on the date of visa issuance.

 

So if you just read the order on its face, someone who got their O-A prior to Oct. 31 but ended up entering the country after Oct. 31 would still fall under the insurance requirement.

 

And the implication equally was, if someone got an O-A a year ago, did their initial entry then, and now after Oct. 31 is leaving and re-entering the country again to activate the second year of their visa permission, they'd also get caught upon post Oct. 31 entry now by the new insurance requirement.

 

See the full memo posted below:

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

Confused Joe.  Are you saying that if I re-enter 1 day before the first 12 months period, that I get another 12 months O-A Visa and that I can leave and come back in again within that period?

Not a new visa. You get a new one year permit to stay the visa allows up to the date it expires.

it is the same for any multiple entry visa. A standard non-o multiple entry visa allows a new 90 day permit to stay up to the date it expires.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

But you are right -  Extension (and Permission to Re-enter) is the best option - I could try to walk him through it from here - but I think they will have to use a Migration Agent.

 

Exactly, an agent (not sure what you mean by a migration agent, I mean just a Pattaya Visa agent,) would suit this type of guy best. He just needs to align extension renewal date with time in Thailand.

Edited October 11, 2019 by jacko45k

[Exploring Thailand]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

While premiums are higher for older agrs there is a degree of coet sharing and the younger people do in fact partially offset the costs for the older (and the healthy for the sick). Were this not so, the premiums for people over 60 would be far higher, and likely more than anyone could afford.

The special "longterm stay" policies responded to this problem by offering ridiculously low level of cover...negating the whole ppint of insurance.

There is also always an economy of scale, the more people insured the lower the associated admin costs per person. Products designed for small markets will always be more expensive.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Cost sharing and economies of scale might make a small difference to the premium, but there's no way they could account for a ten-fold difference. The O-A policies are ten times more expensive than the others. That is unjustifiable.

 

I believe a more plausible reason the premiums are so high, and so similar across insurance companies, is that they knew they had a monopoly. The Thai government was mandating that people buy one of their policies. Wherever you have a monopoly you have high prices.  

 

Anyway, it's water under  the bridge now.  People can buy whatever policy they choose. 

[BertM]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Well <deleted> me - I might actually be right about it being applied to Retirement Extensions.

 

 

I wouldn't worry to much about hearsay. You never know who the pool guy talked to at IM or whether the person understood the question or even understands the new police order. I will believe it (mandatory medical coverage for retirement & marriage extensions) when a police order is issued. I don't find it worthwhile to waste time worrying about something that hasn't happened or may never happen. I'm on a marriage extension anyway, not retirement, which is what the pool guy asked about. I also have an employer provided international medical policy, so I have coverage. I also have a backup plan because I wasn't planning to live here the rest of my life. I didn't buy a house or car, so me & the wife can leave whenever. I know that's not the case for everyone. Let's just hope for the best for everyone's sake...

Edited October 11, 2019 by BertM

[ourdon]

Ahhmm  Did I read that properly?  When did this Cabinet resolution happen?  It looks like April 2nd 1962 or 57 years ago.

When will the Prime Minister and the Minister of foreign affairs be told that they have become redundant.  It seems that an assistant minister of public health will now be directing all embassies and consulates world wide to redefine the requirements for entry.  He also will be formulating National and international policy on who will be allowed to enter the country and what the requirements for that entry shall be.  Oh yeah, I guess that makes the Minister of tourism and interesting statistics redundant also.

This guy is really streamlining the government

[Exploring Thailand]

41 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The latest report from The Nation today and the comments therein by the Public Health Ministry guy certainly did NOT suggest the new requirement is only going to be applied to Non-O visa holders.

Which comments are you referring to?

[Pib]

33 minutes ago, ourdon said:

Ahhmm  Did I read that properly?  When did this Cabinet resolution happen?  It looks like April 2nd 1962 or 57 years ago.

It's talking the Thai year of 2562; not the Gregorian year.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Pib