Is this legal? No farangs welcome...

[webfact]

Thousands flee, hundreds reported dead in Turkish attack on U.S.-allied Kurds in Syria

By Daren Butler and Orhan Coskun

 

People stand at a back of a truck as they flee Ras al Ain town, Syria October 9, 2019. REUTERS/Rodi Said

 

ISTANBUL/ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey pounded Kurdish militia in northeast Syria for a second day on Thursday, forcing tens of thousands of people to flee and killing dozens, in a cross-border assault on U.S. allies that has turned the Washington establishment against President Donald Trump.

 

The offensive against the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) led by Kurdish YPG militia, which began days after Trump pulled U.S. troops out of the way and following a phone call with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan, opens one of the biggest new fronts in years in an eight-year-old civil war that has drawn in global powers.

 

"We have one of three choices: Send in thousands of troops and win Militarily, hit Turkey very hard Financially and with Sanctions, or mediate a deal between Turkey and the Kurds!" Trump said in a Twitter post on Thursday.

 

At least 23 fighters with the SDF and six fighters with a Turkish-backed Syrian rebel group had been killed, said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which monitors the war.

 

The SDF said Turkish air strikes and shelling had also killed nine civilians. In an apparent retaliation by Kurdish-led forces, six people including a 9-month-old baby were killed by mortar and rocket fire into Turkish border towns, officials in southeastern Turkey said.

 

The International Rescue Committee said 64,000 people in Syria have fled since the campaign began. The towns of Ras al-Ain and Darbasiya, some 60 km (37 miles) to the east, have become largely deserted.

 

The Observatory said Turkish forces had seized two villages near Ras al-Ain and five near the town of Tel Abyad, while a spokesman for Syrian rebel forces said the towns were surrounded after fighters seized the villages around them.

 

Turkey's Defense Ministry said 219 militants had been killed so far. Kurds said they were resisting the assault.

 

Late on Thursday, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar spoke by phone with his French, British and U.S. counterparts, the defence ministry said. It said Akar and U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper discussed defence and security issues, and added that Akar briefed Esper on the aims and progress of the incursion.

 

According to a senior Turkish security official, the armed forces struck weapons and ammunition depots, gun and sniper positions, tunnels and military bases.

 

Jets flew operations up to 30 km (18 miles) into Syria - a limit which Turkey's foreign minister said Turkish forces would not go beyond. A Reuters journalist saw shells exploding just outside Tel Abyad.

 

Ankara brands the YPG militia as terrorists because of their ties to militants who have waged an insurgency in Turkey. On Thursday, Turkish police began criminal investigations of several Kurdish lawmakers and detained scores of people in the southeastern city of Diyarbakir, accusing them of criticising the military's incursion into Syria, state media reported.

 

U.S. LAWMAKERS CRITICISE TRUMP

Trump has faced rare criticism from senior figures in his own Republican Party who accuse him of deserting loyal U.S. allies. Trump has called the Turkish assault a "bad idea" and said he did not endorse it.

 

After the U.N. Security Council met to discuss the fighting, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said Turkey faced unspecified "consequences" if it did not meet its pledge to protect vulnerable populations or contain Islamic State fighters.

 

The SDF have been the main allies of U.S. forces on the ground in the battle against Islamic State since 2014. They have been holding thousands of captured IS fighters and tens of thousands of their relatives in detention.

 

Turkey pressed its military offensive against U.S.-allied Kurdish fighters in northeast Syria on Thursday, shelling towns and bombing targets from the air in an operation that has forced thousands of people to flee their homes. Emily Wither reports.

 

French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian called for an emergency meeting of the coalition of more than 30 countries created to fight Islamic State.

 

The coalition "needs to say today what are we going do, how do you, Turkey, want to proceed and how do we ensure the security of places where fighters are held? Everything needs to be on the table so that we are clear," Le Drian said on France 2 television.

 

NATO member Turkey has said it intends to create a "safe zone" for the return of millions of refugees to Syria.

 

But world powers fear the operation could intensify Syria's conflict and runs the risk of Islamic State prisoners escaping from camps amid the chaos.

 

Erdogan sought to assuage those concerns, saying militants from the jihadist group would not be allowed to rebuild a presence in the region.

 

He took aim at the European Union and Arab powers Saudi Arabia and Egypt, which have voiced opposition to the operation.

 

"They are not honest, they just make up words," Erdogan said in a speech to members of his AK party. "We, however, take action and that is the difference between us."

 

REFUGEES TO EUROPE?

Erdogan threatened to permit Syrian refugees in Turkey to move to Europe if EU countries described his forces' move as an occupation. Turkey hosts around 3.6 million people who have fled the Syrian war.

 

The European Union should have a dialogue with Turkey despite Ankara's offensive against the Kurds, in order to avoid a fresh wave of migrants coming to Europe, Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said on Thursday.

 

Russia, the main international backer of Syria's President Bashar al-Assad, said it planned to push for dialogue between the Syrian and Turkish governments following the incursion.

 

The Kurdish-led authority in northern Syria said a prison that holds "the most dangerous criminals from more than 60 nationalities" had been struck by Turkish shelling, and Turkey's attacks on its prisons risked "a catastrophe".

 

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Turkey will be responsible only for Islamic State prisoners within the safe zone it aims to form. Turkey would ask countries from which the prisoners came to take them back.

 

U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican who usually backs Trump, has been one of the most outspoken critics of the president's decision to withdraw U.S. troops from northeastern Syria. He unveiled a framework for sanctions on Turkey with Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.

 

"If there is any measure taken against us, we will retaliate and respond in kind," Cavusoglu said, adding that "nothing will come of these sanctions."

 

(Reporting by Daren Butler and Orhan Coskun; Additional reporting by Tom Perry and Ellen Francis in Beirut and Reuters correspondents in the region; Writing by William Maclean and Grant McCool; Editing by Mike Collett-White and Daniel Wallis)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-10-11

Follow Thaivisa on LINE for breaking Thailand news and visa info

[TopDeadSenter]

6 minutes ago, webfact said:

NATO member Turkey has said it intends to create a "safe zone" for the return of millions of refugees to Syria.

Thank you Turkey. I knew it would be a disaster for Syria when Europe took all their engineers, scientists and entrepreneurs. Send them all back home, and let them build their own country, just like we did in the west. 

[Samui Bodoh]

31 minutes ago, webfact said:

Thousands flee, hundreds reported dead in Turkish attack on U.S.-allied Kurds in Syria

This is heart-breaking. Truly heart-breaking

 

This is one of the most loathsome, disgusting actions ever perpetrated by a country on a people, and it'll blacken the American name for generations.

 

Further, I would bet my left arm that upon investigation, this 'decision' by Trump will somehow be wrapped up in his ownership of a property/hotel in Turkey; we have seen time and again that he acts to protect/enhance his wealth above any or all principle, sense of patriotism or shred of humanity and/or decency. 

 

I have said it before and mean it 1,000 times stronger now;

 

Donald Trump is an ever-expanding cloud of toxic waste that defiles everything it touches.

 

Let this nightmare end soon...

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Samui Bodoh

[Somtamnication]

Clearly created to move the media away from Trump, Ukraine and now Giuliani's friends indictment today.

 

Come one, Fox, wake up!

[J Town]

And so it begins.  ????

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Thank you Turkey. I knew it would be a disaster for Syria when Europe took all their engineers, scientists and entrepreneurs. Send them all back home, and let them build their own country, just like we did in the west. 

What part did you play in building your country?

 

And while you are cheering Turkey on, ponder this threat from the Turkish President:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/turkish-president-threatens-send-refugees-europe-recep-tayyip-erdogan-syria

[ezzra]

Never ceases to amaze, when a Palestinian child get killed the whole world is up on their hind legs with blames and condemnations, here we have a whole army of tanks and planes indiscriminately killing people and destroying towns and the world, and the wise and unmatched genius Trump keeps mum, i hope you're smug and happy now Mr. president...

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, ezzra said:

Never ceases to amaze, when a Palestinian child get killed the whole world is up on their hind legs with blames and condemnations, here we have a whole army of tanks and planes indiscriminately killing people and destroying towns and the world, and the wise and unmatched genius Trump keeps mum, i hope you're smug and happy now Mr. president...

Nothing to do with Palestinians (but hey ho) ; the international and US domestic response of is disgust and fingers are being pointed. Trump is far from mum, he gave this atrocity the green light and what he has said about the likely outcome of this atrocity ought to give his cheerleaders in Europe pause for thought:

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/trump-shrugs-off-isis-fighters-fleeing-syria-theyll-be-escaping-to-europe/

 

[TopDeadSenter]

1 hour ago, Samui Bodoh said:

This is heart-breaking. Truly heart-breaking

 

This is one of the most loathsome, disgusting actions ever perpetrated by a country on a people, and it'll blacken the American name for generations.

 

Further, I would bet my left arm that upon investigation, this 'decision' by Trump will somehow be wrapped up in his ownership of a property/hotel in Turkey; we have seen time and again that he acts to protect/enhance his wealth above any or all principle, sense of patriotism or shred of humanity and/or decency. 

 

I have said it before and mean it 1,000 times stronger now;

 

Donald Trump is an ever-expanding cloud of toxic waste that defiles everything it touches.

 

Let this nightmare end soon...

If the problems in Syria began when Donald Trump became president, you might have a point to make. However, from what I saw, the problems in Syria really took off when Trump's predecessor armed and funded gangs of islamists(who thanks to this became organized and named themselves ISIS). 44 did this because for reasons only known to himself he did not want democratically elected president Assad to be the ruler of Syria. Now quite what it had to do with warmonger Obama is another story altogether. Trump is only trying to bring back some sanity to the situation he was left with.

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

[J Town]

27 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

If the problems in Syria began when Donald Trump became president, you might have a point to make. However, from what I saw, the problems in Syria really took off when Trump's predecessor armed and funded gangs of islamists(who thanks to this became organized and named themselves ISIS). 44 did this because for reasons only known to himself he did not want democratically elected president Assad to be the ruler of Syria. Now quite what it had to do with warmonger Obama is another story altogether. Trump is only trying to bring back some sanity to the situation he was left with.

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

Then what you are implying is any incoming president has no obligation to honor foreign policies established by previous administrations. And that it's perfectly acceptable for a president to go rogue, ignoring his advisers, and make unilateral decisions that benefit him personally. And, really? Effort to restore dignity and sovereignty by allowing ethnic cleansing/murder of America's allies? More than a stretch.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, TopDeadSenter said:

If the problems in Syria began when Donald Trump became president, you might have a point to make. However, from what I saw, the problems in Syria really took off when Trump's predecessor armed and funded gangs of islamists(who thanks to this became organized and named themselves ISIS). 44 did this because for reasons only known to himself he did not want democratically elected president Assad to be the ruler of Syria. Now quite what it had to do with warmonger Obama is another story altogether. Trump is only trying to bring back some sanity to the situation he was left with.

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

You mean you support Trump whatever, leave out the 'man of peace' please. 

 

But your post is on facts totally incorrect.

[stevenl]

What I think is really bad about this, is that I think that in the phonecall between Trump and erdogan erdogan told Trump: I'm going in, better get your people out. Trump folded, and ordered the withdrawal before he put the horn down.

Hence the sudden and unexpected withdrawal, which had started already before his announcement.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

If the problems in Syria began when Donald Trump became president, you might have a point to make. However, from what I saw, the problems in Syria really took off when Trump's predecessor armed and funded gangs of islamists(who thanks to this became organized and named themselves ISIS). 44 did this because for reasons only known to himself he did not want democratically elected president Assad to be the ruler of Syria. Now quite what it had to do with warmonger Obama is another story altogether. Trump is only trying to bring back some sanity to the situation he was left with.

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

Agree. I never supported the Americans getting involved in Syria. Huge mistake, IMO, though he shouldn't have left the Kurds vulnerable to the Turks.

What Trump needs to do is give the Kurds the technological means to destroy the Turkish attackers, and let them take care of themselves.

That's be the end of the Turks in NATO, but IMO that would be a good thing. 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, J Town said:

Then what you are implying is any incoming president has no obligation to honor foreign policies established by previous administrations. And that it's perfectly acceptable for a president to go rogue, ignoring his advisers, and make unilateral decisions that benefit him personally. And, really? Effort to restore dignity and sovereignty by allowing ethnic cleansing/murder of America's allies? More than a stretch.

The Americans did it in Vietnam. Same same.

Americans should never have even been in Syria in the first place, IMO. No president is obligated to continue a previous president's mistake.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

 

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

By enabling another foreign nation to invade?

[zydeco]

Silent on Hong Kong. Complicit, now, in a genocide of the Kurds. The Trump legacy.

[stevenl]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Americans did it in Vietnam. Same same.

Americans should never have even been in Syria in the first place, IMO. No president is obligated to continue a previous president's mistake.

Agree they should not be there. But they are, or better were, and that requires a withdrawal plan, not a 'I talked to Erdogan and we agree to withdraw US troops starting now', I know him, he is a good guy and will not do anything nasty' plan.

[Becker]

2 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

 

 As a man of peace, I support a fellow man of peace, Donald Trump's, efforts to restore dignity and sovereignty to Syria.

Let me get this straight. Trump gives Erdogan the green light on the invasion of Kurdish areas thereby despicably selling out a steadfast ally. The Turks promptly start killing said Kurds and that, somehow, in an alternate reality makes him a man of peace??

The depths that Trump has reached means that nothing he does surprises me anymore but you base supporters are occasionally able to get a raised eyebrow, a sight and a slow shaking of the head out of me.

[JamesBlond]

Perhaps I'm the only one who sees this objectively and not from a bleeding heart point of view. Turkey is in a difficult position with a quarter of its population Kurdish who are clamouring for their own homeland. Of course Turkey can't be expected to give a huge chunk of their territory away. They can contain the Kurds within their own borders, but the Kurds are spread across other countries and therefore form a destabilising bloc across the whole region.

 

They have also been expanding around the region rather than sticking to their homeland - looking at the map it almost seems like spreading throughout Turkey has been their a covert political plan to enhance their power and status - and of course that will only inflame the situation. That corner of Syria is an area of Kurdish expansion. It is flat desert terrain and not the Kurds' traditional environment, which is in the mountains.  It was given to Syria when someone drew a border with a marker pen on a map. Whether the Kurds were already there at point, I don't know, but it's clearly one of those places where whoever muscles in on it, gets it.

 

Turkey may not be quite reasonable to characterise Kurds as terrorists, but they can feel reasonably threatened by having the Kurdish bloc right across their border which will obviously mean support for insurgents coming in. They want to clear the Kurds out of that area  or at least annex it in order to secure their own nation. As nasty as that will be for a while, it's probably the best thing for long-term stability. Hopefully that's all there is to it, and after that the region can settle again into an uneasy impasse because there really is no solution to the Kurdish problem. 

 

This is not the Kurds' fault and I sympathise with them - I've travelled in Kurdish areas and they are extremely friendly people. If in the past they'd got themselves organised and built cities and universities they would have been able to establish their own nation. They lost that particular battle historically, unfortunately, and now they need to stop fighting for independence in Turkey.

[klikster]

2 hours ago, car720 said:

Just goes to show that you can never trust the yanks.  They will always do what is best for them no matter what they say.  A population brainwashed by hollywood.

I'm ashamed of my once-great country -- sad to say I tend to agree. Easy to blame on "politicians" but regular folks elected these greedy bastards.

 

I came to LOS 22 years ago .. and here I'll remain until my BBQ.

[stevenl]

46 minutes ago, Becker said:

Let me get this straight. Trump gives Erdogan the green light on the invasion of Kurdish areas thereby despicably selling out a steadfast ally. The Turks promptly start killing said Kurds and that, somehow, in an alternate reality makes him a man of peace??

The depths that Trump has reached means that nothing he does surprises me anymore but you base supporters are occasionally able to get a raised eyebrow, a sight and a slow shaking of the head out of me.

Disagree with you. I don't think Trump gave the green light, but feel that Erdogan over-bluffed him 'I'm going in tomorrow, whether your people are there or not' at which point Trump simply gave in.

[canuckamuck]

It is a terrible situation that has many causes, some of them quite ancient. But the previous administration screwed the pooch terribly with Syria and the area is no longer unwinnable. It is better that they do not make another Vietnam out of the region. The right thing to do is come at this by cutting off Turkey economically and booting them out of NATO too. Edrogan is as nasty a piece of work as can be found.

[J Town]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Disagree with you. I don't think Trump gave the green light, but feel that Erdogan over-bluffed him 'I'm going in tomorrow, whether your people are there or not' at which point Trump simply gave in.

Maybe we can get a copy of THAT phone conversation?

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, JamesBlond said:

Perhaps I'm the only one who sees this objectively and not from a bleeding heart point of view. Turkey is in a difficult position with a quarter of its population Kurdish who are clamouring for their own homeland. Of course Turkey can't be expected to give a huge chunk of their territory away. They can contain the Kurds within their own borders, but the Kurds are spread across other countries and therefore form a destabilising bloc across the whole region.

 

They have also been expanding around the region rather than sticking to their homeland - looking at the map it almost seems like spreading throughout Turkey has been their a covert political plan to enhance their power and status - and of course that will only inflame the situation. That corner of Syria is an area of Kurdish expansion. It is flat desert terrain and not the Kurds' traditional environment, which is in the mountains.  It was given to Syria when someone drew a border with a marker pen on a map. Whether the Kurds were already there at point, I don't know, but it's clearly one of those places where whoever muscles in on it, gets it.

 

Turkey may not be quite reasonable to characterise Kurds as terrorists, but they can feel reasonably threatened by having the Kurdish bloc right across their border which will obviously mean support for insurgents coming in. They want to clear the Kurds out of that area  or at least annex it in order to secure their own nation. As nasty as that will be for a while, it's probably the best thing for long-term stability. Hopefully that's all there is to it, and after that the region can settle again into an uneasy impasse because there really is no solution to the Kurdish problem. 

 

This is not the Kurds' fault and I sympathijves organised and built cities and universities they would have been able to establish their own nation. They lost that particular battle historically, unfortunately, and now they need to stop fighting for independence in Turkey.

"looking at the map it almost seems like spreading throughout Turkey has been their a covert political plan to enhance their power and status"

What map would that be?

And what does "it almost seems?" mean? That it's not the case but it just looks like it? Or that it would just take a little bit more evidence to prove that it is the case?

And as for "it's probably the best thing for long-term stability.", really? No chance that the Syrians might object to Turkey annexing its territory and the the Kurds won't ally with them? Improbable that this could turn into anothe quagmire?

[Becker]

1 hour ago, JamesBlond said:

Perhaps I'm the only one who sees this objectively and not from a bleeding heart point of view.

Yes, that's probably it!

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's not the American way. They abandoned the government and hill tribes of Sth Vietnam, a country they lost 50,000 men and untold treasure in to the communists, destroyed Laos and allowed the Pathet Lao to take over, abandoned the Shia of Iraq after the first Iraq war when they promised to support them, and other things they have done like what they have done to the population of Diego Garcia, and abandoning their puppet dictator in Egypt.

I don't know why the Kurds would even trust the Americans in the first place.

Ah, so in the past they acted wrongly, therefor must do the same now.

[jany123]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

The coalition "needs to say today what are we going do, how do you, Turkey, want to proceed and how do we ensure the security of places where fighters are held? Everything needs to be on the table so that we are clear," Le Drian said on France 2 television.

A logical first step, one would think, but why wasn’t it taken... oh, right... the trump

 

its a pity the trump is to stupid to understand the basics of anything... and here we see dangerous stupidity once again acting unilaterally to the detriment of regional and world peace. 

 

The world must take a stance against the trump. It’s beyond a point where saying “I don’t blame trump, I blame his electors” means anything... it’s now time to start pointing fingers at allied nations that still support the trump, regardless of cost.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Ah, so in the past they acted wrongly, therefor must do the same now.

It's what they do.

[Mavideol]

Turkey the masters of genocides and race/ethnic cleansing.... from Kurds, Greeks, Armenians, Cyprus and the list goes on and on....

 

In July 1974 a chain of events resulted in Turkey invading Cyprus under the pretext that it was a peace operation to bring back peace and stability to the island. The outcome of this invasion has been far reach and still impacts the island and its inhabitants today; it also impacts Turkey and the wider global powers too.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Nice try. Stop making this about America. It's about Trump.

A nice try would be blaming Trump for everything.

Surely he doesn't decide anything by himself.