Retirees and medical insurance

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Retirees and medical insurance

By Barry Kenyon

  

Thai government spokespeople, in recent years, have emphasized that that Thai hospitals are not free for foreigners. They have cited examples of sick and crowd-funded aliens desperate to get back to their home countries, or annual reports from public hospitals bemoaning the unpaid bills of foreign nationals.

 

So far not a lot has happened. Holders of one year 0/A visas or ten year 0/X, issued by Thai consulates and embassies abroad, do now require medical insurance worth at least 400,000 baht for in-patient treatment and 40,000 baht for out-patient care. But the vast majority of expat retirees in Thailand receive their annual extensions of stay at a Thai immigration office. They do not currently require insurance.

 

Will that change? It’s not clear. The government has already stated that long-stay aliens with a history of physical illness may be checked out before an extension of stay is granted. What this means, if anything, is unclear but it could signify the immigration bureau’s refusal if an applicant is discovered to have unpaid hospital bills.

 

One substantial reason for leaving well alone is that many expat retirees self-insure because they are too old or infirm to obtain medical insurance. But these wealthier retirees contribute billions of baht annually to (mostly) private hospital coffers when significant surgery is required. They would be forced out of the country if unobtainable medical cover was made compulsory, thus leading to a gigantic loss of income.

 

It’s also true that the mandatory insurance requirement for 0/A visa holders is modest. A sum of 400,000 baht may seem a lot but is unlikely to cover the total bill for heart surgery, most cancer operations and stays in an intensive care unit, at any rate in the private sector. In other words, the hospitals would still have problems recovering some, or even most, of the cash owed. To this must be added the consideration that most insurance policies carry exclusion clauses which can void individual claims.

 

Full story: https://www.pattayamail.com/news/retirees-and-medical-insurance-266933

 

-- © Copyright Pattaya Mail 2019-10-18

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[Jingthing]

One problem with this article is that we already have some reports that some offices intend to enforce the insurance requirement on EXTENSIONS when the base visa is O-A starting after 31 October. That may not be the intention of the police order but actual enforcement matters to expats much more than police orders. 

[jollyhangmon]

Good article, go read the rest too it does make sense for once ... 

[yellowboat]

 If handled correctly, it could be an opportunity.  Prevention is far more important, especially as you get into your late eighties.  Offering a track of check ups and tests in lieu of or as well as insurance could offer a carrot instead of the stick the junta loves to wield.  

[legend49]

To this must be added the consideration that most insurance policies carry exclusion clauses which can void individual claims.

 

There is the out on claims, exclusions, and pre existing conditions , blah blah blah.

He says 400,000 wont handle heart surgery and ICU? Really I was in a private hospital here in July; many tests for CAD; then surgery and a stent fitted, ICU 24 hours, 2 nights in a room in the hospital and 2 months of drugs on discharge, 347,000 baht.

 

So the guy who wrote this does he work for an insurance company and using scare and divide tactics to lure more customers?

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

One problem with this article is that we already have some reports that some offices intend to enforce the insurance requirement on EXTENSIONS when the base visa is O-A starting after 31 October. That may not be the intention of the police order but actual enforcement matters to expats much more than police orders. 

I did my extension this morning at CM Immigration. Health insurance was not mentioned.

[fxe1200]

They, the government should give these retirees a chance to obtain their health insurance in their home country, when they are there on their regular visit. Those insurances are not only around 30% cheaper, they also do not have all these restrictions, only 100.000 for this and 50.000 for this and so on. I consider Thai insurance policies as a rip off at its finest.

[soisanuk]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

One problem with this article is that we already have some reports that some offices intend to enforce the insurance requirement on EXTENSIONS when the base visa is O-A starting after 31 October. That may not be the intention of the police order but actual enforcement matters to expats much more than police orders. 

The way the Police Order is worded, it could reasonably interpreted that it applies to to extensions for which the base visa (used to obtain the original permission to stay) was a Non-Immigrant "O-A" and it most likely was the intention.  But, as mentioned, how the new rule is enforced is what will matter, which we will not know until after the end of this month when those whose extensions are based on an O-A visa report on whether they are being required to have health insurance of not.

 

What is missing in the new orders, but alluded to by the Ministry of Public Health officials when originally announced, is the acceptance of foreign health insurance policies that meet the requirements or the ability to self insure by showing sufficient funds to cover medical costs.  Foreign health insurance policies apparently can be used by future applicants for O-A Visas at Thai Embassies or Consulates based on the Certificate that can be downloaded from the Thai General Insurance Association (TGIA) website.  But, for extensions, the new requirements in the Police order specifically states an insurance policy purchased through the TGIA website - which is a listing of links to various Thai insurance companies.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I did my extension this morning at CM Immigration. Health insurance was not mentioned.

Why would it be? It's not even 31 October yet. You also didn't bother to mention if your base visa was O or OA. ALL people reporting should include that detail going forward. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Jingthing

[moonseeker]

Not enough coverage for even 2 months up-to-date cancer treatment, depending on cancer type. I just made year 5 and total cost incl. 8 surgeries, chemo, Immune and Targeted Therapy close to 1 Mio, ???????? $.... Not Baht... MS>

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

The way the Police Order is worded, it could reasonably interpreted that it applies to to extensions for which the base visa (used to obtain the original permission to stay) was a Non-Immigrant "O-A" and it most likely was the intention.  But, as mentioned, how the new rule is enforced is what will matter, which we will not know until after the end of this month when those whose extensions are based on an O-A visa report on whether they are being required to have health insurance of not.

 

What is missing in the new orders, but alluded to by the Ministry of Public Health officials when originally announced, is the acceptance of foreign health insurance policies that meet the requirements or the ability to self insure by showing sufficient funds to cover medical costs.  Foreign health insurance policies apparently can be used by future applicants for O-A Visas at Thai Embassies or Consulates based on the Certificate that can be downloaded from the Thai General Insurance Association (TGIA) website.  But, for extensions, the new requirements in the Police order specifically states an insurance policy purchased through the TGIA website - which is a listing of links to various Thai insurance companies.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's my strong impression that Ubonjoe who it seems is considered as the ultimate visa authority on THIS forum has been very clear that the police order means to indicate that NO extensions should be effected. Not from OA bases. Not from O bases. NONE.

 

Which is a big part of what I've been talking about. Interpretations of police orders (correct or not) ultimately don't mean so much IF some immigration offices ENFORCE in a different way than indicated by those interpretations.

 

[Leaver]

Only a matter of time before insurance will be required for a retirement visa or extension. 

 

They are compulsory, junk policies, designed to make certain Thai's even more wealthy, who have financial interests in the companies accredited to issue the policies.  

 

Basically, just another scam on foreigners.   

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

Only a matter of time before insurance will be required for a retirement visa or extension. 

 

They are compulsory, junk policies, designed to make certain Thai's even more wealthy, who have financial interests in the companies accredited to issue the policies.  

 

Basically, just another scam on foreigners.   

Well if that turns out to be the case, then a significant percentage of current retirees here (and potential new ones) will be pushed out of Thailand, especially those over 70 based on the absurdly high premiums for almost no cover. Of course some might choose to switch to the Elite program but if they do they should realize that the same insurance requirement may migrate in that direction as well.

 

I'm not suggesting that the government CARES if that happens (or not). Just saying that result for better or worse (and clearly for worse for many of the expats) is totally predictable. 

[Leaver]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

then a significant percentage of current retirees here (and potential new ones) will be pushed out of Thailand, especially those over 70 based on the absurdly high premiums for almost no cover.

Happening now, as we post.

 

 At 70, you are passed your use by date for the Thai's. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Leaver

[sfokevin]

My bet is they will allow extensions for Non O without insurance but will require proof of insurance if anyone goes to a nearby consul to get a new Non O visa for purposes of retirement... Present Non O holders are grandfathered but one visa renewal failure (which they can selectively facilitate) and there is no way to get a new visa to start over without insurance... Thais save face by not being seen as taking away visa only not issuing new ones... Similar to how they fazed out the Condo visas...

Edited October 18, 2019 by sfokevin

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Happening now, as we post.

It's been happening already to a significant degree as a result of other things that have already happened in the last year or so, especially to those expats with embassies that threw them under the bus for income letters. We can't discount the impact of the strong baht either. The health insurance thing depending on how this develops as far as impacting extensions (or not) may clearly be the last straw for many. I've never heard the phrase PLAN B so much in my life. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

Not mentioned in this article -- and to my mind the most absurd part -- is that many expats are well insured with foreign policies that cover way more than the mandated 400k, but as it now stands (and contrary to what was stated in some earlier press releases and apparently in initial discussions with local brokers) such policies will not be accepted. People are in effect being pushed to abandon solid insurance for a  much lower value new policy they (1) may not be able to get and (2) if they can get, may exclude conditions their present policy covers.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I did my extension this morning at CM Immigration. Health insurance was not mentioned.

 

Why would it have been? The policy change doesn't take effect until Oct. 31.

 

And if you're not a former O-A visa holder, then you probably don't have anything to worry about at all.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

47 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

My bet is they will allow extensions for Non O without insurance but will require proof of insurance if anyone goes to a nearby consul to get a new Non O visa for purposes of retirement... Present Non O holders are grandfathered but one visa renewal failure (which they can selectively facilitate) and there is no way to get a new visa to start over without insurance... Thais save face by not being seen as taking away visa only not issuing new ones... Similar to how they fazed out the Condo visas...

 

There's nothing in the new insurance policy relating to O visas... only O-A visas and perhaps the extensions flowing from them...

 

Unless you meant O-As, and were shorthanding it by saying Os.

[Leaver]

49 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

People are in effect being pushed to abandon solid insurance for a  much lower value new policy they (1) may not be able to get and (2) if they can get, may exclude conditions their present policy covers.

People are not being pushed to abandon anything. You will need two policies.  The Thai's will not let you use your good foreign policy because they want to make money out of you.

 

People will need their proper comprehensive foreign policy, in case of illness and / or injury, and the Thai junk policy, just to obtain a visa / extension. So, that 1900 baht visa is set to become a whole lot more expensive, on top of the 800,000 baht in a bank that makes no money for you, and you can't even use 400,000 baht of it, forever.

 

The wealthy Thai elite can't be seen stealing visa fees, but they can force you to buy a junk insurance policy from an accredited company that they have financial interests in. 

 

Those who can not afford both, really should be looking at leaving Thailand. 

 

Don't shoot the messenger.  We can all see what they are doing, and we all know why they are doing it.  It has nothing to do with foreigners not paying their medical bills.  They are corrupt and greedy, and are using their power to legally extort money from foreigners. 

 

It will come down to paying them what they want for their policy that covers practically nothing, if you want to remain in Thailand, or leave. 

 

Since when has any rule or law come in that even remotely benefits foreigners in Thailand????

Edited October 18, 2019 by Leaver

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I've never heard the phrase PLAN B so much in my life. 

Are you only hearing that phrase now???? 

 

Many have already left, whilst many are weighing up their options to leave. 

 

Also, many tourists have chosen not to holiday here anymore.  The snowbirds in particular are detouring Thailand, because obtaining that forth month is now costly and problematic.  Likewise, many miners and oil and gas guys do not rotate through Thailand now. 

 

You can own 10 houses, 5 condos, 3 cars, 6 motorbikes, a business, and have a Thai wife and 3 children here, but you have no more rights than someone flying in on a 30 day visa exemption stamp. 

 

For those without a Plan B, I would suggest you get busy looking for one, because there is every chance you will need it in the future. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Are you only hearing that phrase now???? 

...

 

 

No of course not!

[Jingthing]

 

17 minutes ago, Leaver said:

People are not being pushed to abandon anything. You will need two policies.  The Thai's will not let you use your good foreign policy because they want to make money out of you.

 

People will need their proper comprehensive foreign policy, in case of illness and / or injury, and the Thai junk policy, just to obtain a visa / extension. So, that 1900 baht visa is set to become a whole lot more expensive, on top of the 800,000 baht in a bank that makes no money for you, and you can't even use 400,000 baht of it, forever.

 

The wealthy Thai elite can't be seen stealing visa fees, but they can force you to buy a junk insurance policy from an accredited company that they have financial interests in. 

 

Those who can not afford both, really should be looking at leaving Thailand. 

 

Don't shoot the messenger.  We can all see what they are doing, and we all know why they are doing it.  It has nothing to do with foreigners not paying their medical bills.  They are corrupt and greedy, and are using their power to legally extort money from foreigners. 

 

It will come down to paying them what they want for their policy that covers practically nothing, if you want to remain in Thailand, or leave. 

 

Since when has any rule or law come in that even remotely benefits foreigners in Thailand????

Yes I would consider the Elite card in that case (if my extensions are impacted) but sadly there is no guarantee the health requirement won't migrate there as well. They could stimulate sales if they could guarantee that but I don't think that they possibly could (credibly) even if they wanted to.

 

Oh well!

[sfokevin]

37 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There's nothing in the new insurance policy relating to O visas... only O-A visas and perhaps the extensions flowing from them...

 

Unless you meant O-As, and were shorthanding it by saying Os.

I meant Non O... My bet is that they will eventually no longer issue a visa from any embassy or consul for the purposes of retirement without proof of insurance!... Then weed out the extension holders by attrition... which they can facilitate... 

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No of course not!

I think many never took the Plan B phrase too seriously, thinking they could remain here the rest of their days, finding a way around most barriers.  

 

Similarly, many of those living here on back to back tourist visas felt the same, many of whom could be easily denied entry on their next visa run.

 

We all know we are a guest in Thailand, and whilst many feel stable here, Thailand comes with no guarantee for tomorrow.   

 

The ground is now moving under the feet of many here.  Some of it is due to external forces, like exchange rates, some is due to internal forces, like visa law changes, including this insurance scheme.  

 

I think it fair to say, many are now starting to take the Plan B phrase very seriously. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

I meant Non O... My bet is that they will eventually no longer issue a visa from any embassy or consul for the purposes of retirement without proof of insurance!... Then weed out the extension holders by attrition... which they can facilitate... 

 Could well be... But right now, the new police order only pertains to O-A visas, not O visas, and perhaps extensions of stay stemming from O-A visas...

 

Right now, O visas aren't in play at all.

 

[Leaver]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Yes I would consider the Elite card in that case (if my extensions are impacted) but sadly there is no guarantee the health requirement won't migrate there as well. They could stimulate sales if they could guarantee that but I don't think that they possibly could (credibly) even if they wanted to.

 

Oh well!

I think if many went over to Elite, they would either attach the insurance rule to the Elite as well, or significantly raise the price of the Elite. 

 

Either way, you will be "paying the man." 

[rodknock]

the hospitals say they loose so much money.

when you see there annual statements they make a ton of money.

would share holders stay with a hospital if it was always loosing money??

 

[saengd]

6 minutes ago, rodknock said:

the hospitals say they loose so much money.

when you see there annual statements they make a ton of money.

would share holders stay with a hospital if it was always loosing money??

 

Government hospitals, not private hospitals.

[Enoon]

14 minutes ago, saengd said:

Government hospitals, not private hospitals.

 

Oh yes, the government hospitals.

 

Don't expect your Thai insurance to go very far in them either if they all follow the vanguard leadership of the Phuket ones, who have formally announced their intention to make the raising of prices, specifically for foreign patients, official policy.

 

Let me express my thanks to all those people on Thaivisa who, in my early days, I read advising people only to put as much money into Thailand as they could afford to lose.

 

I can happily walk away and feel I've had my moneys worth.

 

My main problem is how to explain to the beloved ones that they can't really rely on my support anymore if I find myself living in an alternative "place in the sun".

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Enoon