Water leak: How to find? Plumber in Pattaya?

[Swiss1960]

Hi All and thanks for your helpful input.

 

I have an obvious water leak somewhere in my house. On an almost minute frequency now, the water pump (Mitsubishi EP-205 with pressure values 4.2 - 2.8 - 2.2) turns on for few seconds. I have checked all visible water lines, all toilets for leaking, all showers, all sinks (also under the sinks), the hot water boiler and where available, I have closed the stop valves (i.e. to the garden) in order to find the leak. 

 

Attached jpeg shows how my system is configured, line A is the main input from government to stop valve (always open) to water tank to pump to filter system with pressure gauge and then into the house. Thanks to the pressure gauge on the filter, I know that the pump works correctly, as I can see the pressure decreasing and then building up when the pump jumps in at 2.2.

 

Line B is the emergency input from government to stop valve 2 directly to the house. I open valve 2 only when electricity fails, then we have to use direct water for shower etc. As right now, if I open valve 2 together with the open line A, I can see the pressure on the filter be steady at 2.8, obviously (I think) the additional pressure from the government keeps my house pressure stable and the pump stops starting. Of course, the problem with the leak is not solved, only saving electricity from pump operation. 

 

Negative side of above situation is that when we use lot of water and the balloon valve inside the tank opens for refill, then the put also starts running until the tank is full. It seems that due to the fact that the government water goes into the tank, the pressure for the house line goes down and I am afraid that then the pump will be pressing water through the house line B towards the government inlet...  the same is true if the government water stops to come, then the pump will start to work almost indefinitely when the line B with valve 2 is open, again (I assume) pressure water outside my house into the government inlet.

 

Line C I have no idea what it is for... looks like it comes from the house and connects to the  water pipe that goes up into the tank for filling the tank. This valve 3 is always closed as well, I have never opened it in the past. Maybe someone has an idea what this line and valve is built for? 

 

Final question is: How can I find out where I have the leak? Do you people have any recommendation for a plumber in the Pattaya area that knows how to find leaks that might be underground or in the walls?

 

Input greatly appreciated, hopefully issue can be fixed before my water bill explodes...

[thequietman]

Airlock somewhere I think.

[Swiss1960]

Airlock somewhere I think.

Can you please elaborate for me? How does this lead to a constant pressure loss in the system?

Could the airlock be in the filter system? The filter was cleaned/ back washed bybyhe serviced company at around the time the issues started...

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[bankruatsteve]

Your diagram is a bit fuzzy.  Anyway... Are lines 'A', 'B', and 'C' all separate connections to the house?  Even so, that would mean that they are all connected at some point.  The pump should not come on to fill the tank.  If there are no NRV (non-return valve) in the system, you would need to close valve 2 and the one on line 'C' for normal use of the pump.  There should also be a valve between the pump and the filter, or at least, after the filter and before it goes into the house.  If not, you should add one.  Close it to use "government supply" instead of the pump with valve '2' open.  If you don't figure out what the 'C' line is for, I would just keep that valve closed until you do.  

 

The best way to check for leak is to use pump mode (lines 'B' and 'C' closed).  If pump cycles, turn off the valve after the pump (so there is no where for the pump to pump).  If the pump still cycles, the problem is most likely in the pump itself.  Otherwise, re-check toilets and shut-off valves for faucets.  The tiniest of leak can cause pump to cycle.  If you still don't see a leak, it could be in the wall or under ground and which can be a bitch to find.

 

Could line 'C' be for outside faucets?

 

Good luck.

[Swiss1960]

18 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Your diagram is a bit fuzzy.  Anyway... Are lines 'A', 'B', and 'C' all separate connections to the house?  Even so, that would mean that they are all connected at some point.  The pump should not come on to fill the tank.  If there are no NRV (non-return valve) in the system, you would need to close valve 2 and the one on line 'C' for normal use of the pump.  There should also be a valve between the pump and the filter, or at least, after the filter and before it goes into the house.  If not, you should add one.  Close it to use "government supply" instead of the pump with valve '2' open.  If you don't figure out what the 'C' line is for, I would just keep that valve closed until you do.  

 

The best way to check for leak is to use pump mode (lines 'B' and 'C' closed).  If pump cycles, turn off the valve after the pump (so there is no where for the pump to pump).  If the pump still cycles, the problem is most likely in the pump itself.  Otherwise, re-check toilets and shut-off valves for faucets.  The tiniest of leak can cause pump to cycle.  If you still don't see a leak, it could be in the wall or under ground and which can be a bitch to find.

 

Could line 'C' be for outside faucets?

 

Good luck.

Thanks for you reply and sorry for the fuzzy pic, i try to answer

• Line A and B split directly after the government line comes into the garden. Line A with valve 1 to tank, pump, filter then goes into the house, I can see where. 
• Line B with valve 2 goes into the ground directly after the valve and is not seen again. 
• I attach a pic where you see line A and C are connected. Line A comes from the lower right side and goes up to fill the tank. Line C is the one that goes down from the intersection, through the red valve and then to the house. 
  I think that if I would open the valve, I would either have water run from the government line A through line C into the house, or from the house through line C either into the tank or into the government inlet, probably depending on the pressure difference between A and C...

Now to your other questions: 

• Yes, standard operating is line A with valve 1 open, 2 and 3 closed. 
• Emergency non power operation is line B with valve 2 open. Works perfect except for cases where power is on, then I have this "feedback" pressure issue with pump running. 
• Yes, I have stop valves just before and after the filter. If I close the before valve, I see the pressure go down in the filter gauge but no pump kicking in. If I close the valve after the filter, the pressure stays normal, no pump kicking in. Therefore, the leak / airlock issue must clearly be after the filter system. 

[bankruatsteve]

21 minutes ago, Swiss1960 said:

Yes, standard operating is line A with valve 1 open, 2 and 3 closed. 

In this case, the pump should not turn on while the tank is filling, yah?  And, in this case, if the pump cycles for a second or two every minute or so, that is almost always due to a small leak in toilet, shut-off valve, or faucet.  Hopefully all your faucets, toilet, bum-gun, etc. have a shut-off valve.  Turn them all off.  If you still get the pump cycle, not good news as the leak probably in the wall or underground and you just need to look for places getting wet.  If all valves off and the pump does not cycle, then turn on one by one until you find which one is the culprit.

 

Also, do you have outside faucets and, if so, where do they get water supply from?  If connected to house system, you would want valve to cut those off from house supply.

 

Edit:  When closing shut-off valves, make sure no moisture on the valve.  I have had to replace several due to corrosion and eventual leak.

Edited October 24, 2019 by bankruatsteve

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

Do you people have any recommendation for a plumber in the Pattaya area that knows how to find leaks that might be underground or in the walls?

Ask around or ask a Thai friend to do so to find a capable person.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=lcl&sxsrf=ACYBGNRz-sAEAQytSYRIa3o0Zl-jBIuClw%3A1571912744008&ei=KHyxXbwYwYC9BLfJjNAC&q=Qualified+plumber+in+Pattaya+Thailand&oq=Qualified+plumber+in+Pattaya+Thailand&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.30023.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Qs-l6PJTUYw

[sometimewoodworker]

It looks as if you are trying to do everything with stop valves.

 

To avoid ever pumping back into the city supply I would add a non return valve to the supply line before it splits. This will not change any of your plumbing logic but will ensure you don’t drain your tank back into the city supply.

[Swiss1960]

It looks as if you are trying to do everything with stop valves.
 
To avoid ever pumping back into the city supply I would add a non return valve to the supply line before it splits. This will not change any of your plumbing logic but will ensure you don’t drain your tank back into the city supply.

Very good idea, thanks

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thian]

23 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

Thanks for you reply and sorry for the fuzzy pic, i try to answer

• Line A and B split directly after the government line comes into the garden. Line A with valve 1 to tank, pump, filter then goes into the house, I can see where. 
• Line B with valve 2 goes into the ground directly after the valve and is not seen again. 
• I attach a pic where you see line A and C are connected. Line A comes from the lower right side and goes up to fill the tank. Line C is the one that goes down from the intersection, through the red valve and then to the house. 
  I think that if I would open the valve, I would either have water run from the government line A through line C into the house, or from the house through line C either into the tank or into the government inlet, probably depending on the pressure difference between A and C...

Now to your other questions: 

• Yes, standard operating is line A with valve 1 open, 2 and 3 closed. 
• Emergency non power operation is line B with valve 2 open. Works perfect except for cases where power is on, then I have this "feedback" pressure issue with pump running. 
• Yes, I have stop valves just before and after the filter. If I close the before valve, I see the pressure go down in the filter gauge but no pump kicking in. If I close the valve after the filter, the pressure stays normal, no pump kicking in. Therefore, the leak / airlock issue must clearly be after the filter system. 

the valves like on this pic can also start leaking if not used for long time....

[worgeordie]

Try and find the leak ,before you get a plumber,or they

could tear apart your system looking for the leak.

 

It maybe an airlock in your pump,take the nut off top of

pump and let the water out,does your pump have a

non return valve,as water could be flowing back,causing

it to recycle.

regards worgeordie

[Swiss1960]

I think there is big change the NRV on the pump itself is the problem. This is easy to check by closing the valve direct after the pump (as stated above post #4 Bankruatsteve) If not then close all stop valves in your house. When cycling stops then, open one by one (also stated above)
 
The NRV on the pump is just a simple rubber "flap" they are sensitive for sediment build up. Just remove, put the thing in a cup of vinegar, go out for diner, and when your back it is clean and ready to remount. You can also buy a new one, and then clean the old one for later use.
 
Arjen.

I closed the valve directly after the filter. Cycling stops. Problem NOT the pump.

I actually have 2 valves at the filter, one before the filter, one behind. If I close either, pump cycling stops.
If I close the valve before the filter, pressure in the filter goes down. If I close the valve after the filter, pressure stays stable. Therefore, filter also ok

Closed all valves in house (toilets, bum guns, sinks, hot water filter), problem persists. Leak must be somewhere between filter and endpoints... worst case in walls or underground

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Swiss1960]

Try and find the leak ,before you get a plumber,or they
could tear apart your system looking for the leak.
 
It maybe an airlock in your pump,take the nut off top of
pump and let the water out,does your pump have a
non return valve,as water could be flowing back,causing
it to recycle.
regards worgeordie

See my answer above in #13. Plumber coming tomorrow, will also replace some very old valves and lines and add 2 non-return valves

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[topt]

18 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

See my answer above in #13. Plumber coming tomorrow, will also replace some very old valves and lines and add 2 non-return valves

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Can you let us know how it went and if you would recommend the plumber please?

Thanks 

[Swiss1960]

On 10/26/2019 at 3:00 PM, topt said:

Can you let us know how it went and if you would recommend the plumber please?

Thanks 

So here my update, finally coming to it and can tell you about it: After having talked with loads of guys whose contact details i got from various sources, I can tell you that I heard everything

• 2 guys insisted that the pump must be replaced, which of course was <deleted> and I even had one of the guys bring a replacement pump because he wanted to "prove" to me that he was right.. which he was not...
• 1 guy told me that his initial visit and check will be 5'000 Baht without even touching anything...
• 1 guy told me he will dig out inside the house along the water lines until he finds the leak...

So three guys who came told me that with the leak not visible, the chances are it is under the house and therefore can not be fixed. They all recommended that I replace the whole water system. As all my water taps are in rooms towards the outside walls of my house, their recommendation was to add new lines around the house, cut through the outer wall and fix the new lines to the taps and only damage the minimum of tiles in order to connect i.e. from shower to toilet etc. Price tag given was form 5'000 Baht to 25'000 Baht, all prices excluding tiles and material which I would have to pay on top. 

 

I gave the job to the one guy who works with his wife only, a young Thai with no english skills (so my wife needs to translate) and this guy also received the job of re-tiling all around my house which was planned anyway for later in the year. So he started to open the ground aound the house for the new lines (they are now 5cm under the tiles), broke through the walls to the taps and reattached all lines. For the 3 rooms with water, I needed 4 packs of tiles and few meters of water lines, all  material at around 2'000 Baht. Luckily, all tiles were still available.

 

Result is that for less than 10'000 Baht all my wet rooms are re-connected to the water, I even improved the quality with flow-back stops, I now have clear diagrams of where the water lines are (add-on for possible sale or future issues) and this guy really did a great job.. I am happy, he is happy that he also got the bigger job of retiling and my water leak problems are gone.

 

Thanks again for the support I got from all of you