Mandatory health insurance for retirees falls flat as ‘Non-Imm O’ visa loophole exposed

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Unfortunately, this was confirmed here in Chiang Mai at our monthly meeting of the Chiang Mai Expats.

what was confirmed ?? 

 

The ability to change OA to O ?? 

[SteveK]

9 minutes ago, fittobethaied said:

Therefore, for those of us who are legally married, we should change our reason from retirement to marriage to extend our 12 month stay to avoid the insurance requirement while at the same time reducing our proof of income from 800,000 baht to 400,000 baht with no requirement to leave a portion in the bank past the date of our extensions. Now that's a win-win.  

Insurance O-A Visa New Police Order.pdf 1.87 MB · 0 downloads

I suspect that the insurance requirement will be extended to non-O marriage extensions shortly.

Edited October 28, 2019 by SteveK

[LivinLOS]

5 hours ago, ExpatLife said:

I know of certain people who have never filled out a TM30 in 10 or so years, and I assume if this insurance thing went through, the Thai system would not be able to keep track of everyone. It depends where you live and the immigration department in that area I assume 

Step one.. Stop issuing multi non imm O's (the case in many places now) 

Step two.. Introduce insurance

Step three.. Refuse to issue a second single entry inside 6 months.

 

Not saying thats how it will pan out only saying thats a very simple and viable way to control this. 

[carbon007]

1 hour ago, SteveK said:

I spoke with him briefly and he seemed aghast at the paperwork requirements, I think he had visited the office a few times before getting everything they wanted. It took them 7 hours to do my extension, I think his experience was even worse.

 

Seeing as this is Thailand, if you can't get the insurance I guess it will tough luck - buy an Elite visa or go home. But I suspect that's the point of it.

Thanks for the last clarification. Fully agree that Elite visa or exodus seem to be the options (at present) for this group of expats that often have been here for many years. Maybe 15-25 years. Personally - as beeing one of them - I think  things have reached a breaking point where quality of life here has gone much down and cost of living much up. I would not recommend people to settle here now. 15 years ago I would.

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

The extension of stay based on retirement is not a non Imm O extension it's an extension of your permission to stay and the process is exactly the same for those who started out with a non Imm O or non Imm O-A visa entry. The non Imm O-A visa is a type of non Imm O visa. 

 

There is no  non Imm O-A extension versus a non Imm O extension. There is an extension of stay based on retirement, the requirements for which are the same for those who first entered using either visa type. The problem regarding insurance may or may not arise depending on the visa entry one had BEFORE one gets the extension. Although the check for insurance is likely to be on the embassy that issues the visa, not immigrations.

 

You're still confusing being here on a non Imm O-A visa entry/permission to stay and being here on an extension of stay based on retirement.

That was exactly how we used to think about it. 

 

Now the immigration offices who disagree with that appear to be Phuket, Chiang Mai, Nakhon Phanom, Yasithorn, Jomtien, and most importantly head office CW and the phone support line. 

While I understand that 'was' the way.. Thats why this change, to retrospectively look back to the visa which generates the permission of stay, at extension time, is such a big deal. 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, pookondee said:

19 hours ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

I came here over 3 years ago on an O-A visa.  Thus far I have had two 1 year extensions.  I am told, that I am not here on an OA anymore, I am permitted to stay due to the extension.  

 

I'm here, so now what?

Now im confused.

Ive been reading here recently that you can only get 2 years out of an

O-A from my country??

 

4675636... You are “here on a O-A visa”. You are simply extending your stay each year. The type/category of entry visa determines what extensions are available.
 

pookondee. You can get nearly two years using a O-A visa without needing an extension of stay from immigration. At the end of any 1 year stay — issued from entry with the visa — you can be extend that stay by 1 year; and keep extending every year thereafter.

[elviajero]

42 minutes ago, SteveK said:

I suspect that the insurance requirement will be extended to non-O marriage extensions shortly.

I doubt it. 

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

what was confirmed ?? 

 

The ability to change OA to O ?? 

Sorry I was not clear. That, after the 0ct. date, not only new O-A Visa seekers but also all those on Extensions of Stay, holding the original O-A Visa will be required to have the required insurance. Of particular interest to many, myself included, who could not qualify for the insurance or would find it financially untenable.

[Huckenfell]

A senior Immigration officer old me yesterday that they have no new instructions regarding Mandatory health insurance on 31st Oct.

[Thingamabob]

As far as I'm concerned this merely confirms what was already known. Why all the fuss ?

[sirineou]

 I have being reading these threads with interest since I am set to retire from work and thinking of my options concerning Thailand . 

The more I do the more confused I get,  It seems the consensus is that no one really has an idea. 

So I guess we will know in a couple of days.

Or will we?

since the ones who are tasked with enforcing the regulation also seem to have no idea as to who it applies to.

[madmen]

Just now, sirineou said:

 I have being reading these threads with interest since I am set to retire from work and thinking of my options concerning Thailand . 

The more I do the more confused I get,  It seems the consensus is that no one really has an idea. 

So I guess we will know in a couple of days.

Or will we?

since the ones who are tasked with enforcing the regulation also seem to have no idea as to who it applies to.

Ignore the noise on TV and the drama queens creating a thousand what if scenarios repeated over and over and over..until they become "true"

 

What are you struggling with. Seems crystal clear to me

[carbon007]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 I have being reading these threads with interest since I am set to retire from work and thinking of my options concerning Thailand . 

The more I do the more confused I get,  It seems the consensus is that no one really has an idea. 

So I guess we will know in a couple of days.

Or will we?

since the ones who are tasked with enforcing the regulation also seem to have no idea as to who it applies to.

Niels Bohr once at an oral exam in physics was asked by an assistant: 'Hr. Professor, aren't these questions the same as the ones from last year?'

He answered:'Yes, but this year the answers are new'. 

[LivinLOS]

29 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Sorry I was not clear. That, after the 0ct. date, not only new O-A Visa seekers but also all those on Extensions of Stay, holding the original O-A Visa will be required to have the required insurance. Of particular interest to many, myself included, who could not qualify for the insurance or would find it financially untenable.

Any word on how they intend to police that in real world terms. 

 

It is currently assumed that those on an extension, and with a re-entry permit, will be allowed to re-enter up to the end date of that re-entry. That conflicts with the idea IOs will stamp people in up to the insurance end date. 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, madmen said:

Ignore the noise on TV and the drama queens creating a thousand what if scenarios repeated over and over and over..until they become "true"

 

What are you struggling with. Seems crystal clear to me

I have being coming to Thailand for 13 years married to a lovely Thai lady for 10, . We live in the US but have build a nice house in Khon Kaen. I always come to Thailand on "visa exempt" and  do a couple of visa runs if need be to Laos nearby. This is changing as visa runs are now restricted to two per year, 

As mentioned I will be retiring from work this year and we are exploring our Thailand related options. 

Medical insurance is useless for me at my age(I am 62) because of pre-existing conditions , and not a long term solution , as it will be impossible to get anyway after a certain age.

So not crystal clear to me. If we make the decision to live long term in Thailand , and do extensions to stay based on mariedge. will I need medical insurance? what visa should I get A-O or -0 , should I get it in the US or should I come in to Thailand Visa exempt and get a Visa there?

[friend of siam]

On 10/27/2019 at 8:50 AM, smedly said:

everybody knows that this insurance debacle is nothing but a huge scam and money grab

 

Also, people who have chosen to retire here now have an age limit of 75 because they will never get the insurance past that age.

 

There are other more simple options 

 

- hold a permanent bank balance of Baht 400,000 for all those on 12 month extension

or

- Let those on 12 month extension pay into the Thai public health system

or

- just not allow people to retire here (many are/will be leaving anyway)

intelligent thai wealth accumulation policy for locals rapped up in the immigration law...( smart asses / in thai it is called the milk the cow programm ) ...this is how it works, a no brainer, my tip sign up fast : come here after you 50 so u qualify for a-o .... bring ALL your savings and buy land house and car for ur pty angel....( on her name cause a st.....ing white ..... like yourselves will NEVER own anything in LOS by law besides a packet of used condoms ) ..if possible in top of all that take out a loan in ur country to show your  real love for LOS....get insured ( spend 100 k a year on insurance / who will never pay by the way ) once u 75 get lost fast ( back to ur bedsit ) cause no insurance take u anymore ( you are too much of a risk now ) means no a-o, no stay in LOS....your angel flys to another 50 y.o. a-o dingdong  sell all that stuff u bought for her and make a happy new family...now she is the hiso madam...a dream came true...

lots of aspirants are lining up all infected  with the bmid* virus..so come here fast to be first its a million times prooven programm u cant get it wrong they will make sure it  goes this way and not another... well there are variations of it including the thai landoffice mafia in phuket and crazy jeallous sangtip thais with guns in fast cars but  I cant guarantee that u eligible for any of this variations...( but you might be lucky just come here and get involve there are plenty of lawyers lining up to help you out of your wealth )

 

* bmid virus - but mine is different ..a virus widespread in LOS.. especially around pty..the bad news no cure available except complete financial and mental ruin...the good news you are not alone... isn't it great ? I'm Loving it...

 

PS: dont forget your 90 days inmate report or if u leave house for the next village....but soon they will help u out with a satellite tracking device...

Edited October 28, 2019 by friend of siam

[DogNo1]

I suggest that you enter on a visa waiver and bring with you 400,000 if you are legally married or 800,000 if you need to do a retirement visa. Put your money in a Thai bank right away, then convert your visa waiver to a ninety-day Non-O about fifteen days in.  Near the end of the ninety days, apply for a one-year extension of stay.  Avoid the O-A confusion.

 

BTW, nobody has posted the financial requirements for extending an O-A visa in-country.  If they are the same as for a Non-O, then the basis for your stay should be changed to Non-O. There is no logic to requiring people who are satisfying the requirements for a Non-O to buy insurance.

[wwest5829]

32 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Any word on how they intend to police that in real world terms. 

 

It is currently assumed that those on an extension, and with a re-entry permit, will be allowed to re-enter up to the end date of that re-entry. That conflicts with the idea IOs will stamp people in up to the insurance end date. 

I have been retired as Thailand as my only residence for 8 years. I wouldn’t dream of guessing as to how this will play out. We are already hearing reports of the issue of switching to an “O” Visa causing issues for immigration. 

[LivinLOS]

16 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

I have been retired as Thailand as my only residence for 8 years. I wouldn’t dream of guessing as to how this will play out. We are already hearing reports of the issue of switching to an “O” Visa causing issues for immigration. 

Worst case.. Leave the country, apply for a single non imm O.. Apply for an extension of non imm O. 

 

Thats are least the next year or two covered, long long term I tend to feel this will be viewed as against the spirit of the rule, so can see a future where this requirement is expanded. However thats not now or next year or so. 

[AAArdvark]

2 hours ago, carbon007 said:

Fully agree that Elite visa or exodus seem to be the options

The problem with the Elite visa is that you pay up front for 5 or 10 years.  You get away with no insurance but 2 years in they change the requirement.  Then you are stuck with getting insurance or loosing your money spent on the Elite visa. 

[Alotoftravel]

I am guessing that my insurance should start exactly on the date my extension expires so that I can get the full 1 year of extension stay . I need to check if I can purchase an insurance that starts in the future so that I can bring the insurance policy to immigration prior to extension expiry . Any thoughts anyone ?

[Polaky]

17 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

After the 3rd pint then every 10 minutes from then on .

You will need a little modurectic to help out there.

[madmen]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I have being coming to Thailand for 13 years married to a lovely Thai lady for 10, . We live in the US but have build a nice house in Khon Kaen. I always come to Thailand on "visa exempt" and  do a couple of visa runs if need be to Laos nearby. This is changing as visa runs are now restricted to two per year, 

As mentioned I will be retiring from work this year and we are exploring our Thailand related options. 

Medical insurance is useless for me at my age(I am 62) because of pre-existing conditions , and not a long term solution , as it will be impossible to get anyway after a certain age.

So not crystal clear to me. If we make the decision to live long term in Thailand , and do extensions to stay based on mariedge. will I need medical insurance? what visa should I get A-O or -0 , should I get it in the US or should I come in to Thailand Visa exempt and get a Visa there?

Check out post #197. That would be your solution no insurance needed

[Torrens54]

Remember that famous Book, entitled, “Catch 22”?

yep....that pretty well sums up the situation.

[Nowisee]

 

On 10/27/2019 at 2:55 PM, nichopaulcnx said:

It's only relevant and compulsory for Non O-A visas obtained outside of Thailand anyway !!!

 

On 10/27/2019 at 2:57 PM, Mango Bob said:

The insurance is supposed to be for those who apply for an O/A visa after 31 Oct 19 and extend here.   Those who have  been here on an O/A visa in the past and are on an extension to stay now do not need the insurance.  Why can't be Immigrations Chiefs read their own Police Report.  What the hell is the matter with these people.

 

 

5 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Maybe I will be proven wrong, but it looks to me that this mandatory health insurance is ONLY required when applying for a Non-Imm OA Visa in your home-country.

That would actually make very much sense from a thai perspective, because during the 1 year validity of an OA Visa (which can be extended by 1 year, when re-entering just before the Visa expires), you are NOT required to have any funds in a Thai bank-account or prove a monthly income transfer of +65.000 THB.  So, if anything happens to your during that 2 year period there won't be any money on a thai bank-account (unless you put it there voluntarily).

When at the end of the 2 year period you apply for an extension of stay, then the financial requirements (400K/800K on bank or income-method) will be applicable, and hence there would be no need anymore for the mandatory health insurance (as there is proof of sufficient funds on a thai bank-account).

So the 'loophole' of avoiding having to park 400K/800K on a thai bank-account, by re-applying for a new Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country at the end of the 2-year period, is now being filled by the new requirement that also mandatory health insurance must be proven during the Non Imm OA Visa validity.

The fact that the minimum amount covered by the insurance is same as the minimum fund on a thai bank-account (400.000 THB) is additional proof, that the only reason for introducing this new requirement is to cover that loophole.

So it makes indeed sense that this new health-insurance requirement is limited ONLY to those that apply for a Non Imm OA Visa in their home-country.  

The above implies that the health-insurance requirement is NOT applicable when applying for an OA extension (because then the financial 400K/800K requirement or income method kicks in).  And is of course also NOT applicable for O Visa holders, as the financial requirement is already covered for them.

I think the above provides the rationale for the new requirement, and as mentioned higher makes perfect sense from a thai perspective. 

Note: But of course, I could be proven wrong when it turns out that provincial IO's will require mandatory heatlh insurance proof for an OA extension of stay.  Or when they broaden the scope to also cover O Visas and extensions.  So, let's wait and see...

 

 

57 minutes ago, DogNo1 said:

I suggest that you enter on a visa waiver and bring with you 400,000 if you are legally married or 800,000 if you need to do a retirement visa. Put your money in a Thai bank right away, then convert your visa waiver to a ninety-day Non-O about fifteen days in.  Near the end of the ninety days, apply for a one-year extension of stay.  Avoid the O-A confusion.

 

BTW, nobody has posted the financial requirements for extending an O-A visa in-country.  If they are the same as for a Non-O, then the basis for your stay should be changed to Non-O. There is no logic to requiring people who are satisfying the requirements for a Non-O to buy insurance.

 

Reading the police order many times, I agree with all of these.  When this shakes out or a clearer interpretation is posted, I believe it will be that Non-Imm OA obtained in home country requires insurance during the visa validity period as there is no financial requirements.  After the 2 year period, the extension of stay will require 800k in thai bank for any extension of stay and insurance is not required.

A distinction between extensions based on (retirement) Non-Imm OA  (especially after 2 years) requiring insurance AND 800k in thai bank and an extension based on (retirement) Non-Imm O requiring 800k but NOT requiring insurance would be complete idiocy and put thai immigration in a social media [hot] spot light.  I imagine many foreigners would voice their opinion on this loud and clear.  

 

What say you?

 

 

[Peter Denis]

4 hours ago, oslooskar said:

I have more than 800,000 baht in my Thai bank account and I was still told I needed insurance as a condition of getting an extension of my O-A visa in early February. Draw your own conclusions. 

6 hours ago, SteveK said:

Surely it should be money in the bank OR insurance?

I do not doubt that Oslooskar did get the above response from an Immigration Officer.

However, there are also several reports from TVF members who queried their provincial Immigration Office on the issue, and received the response that health insurance will NOT be required for any extension of stay.

Note: That response is in line with the rationale to ONLY impose the health insurance requirement for those  applying for a Non Imm OA Visa in their home-country < see my post #150 >

 

[Mango Bob]

4 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I do not doubt that Oslooskar did get the above response from an Immigration Officer.

However, there are also several reports from TVF members who queried their provincial Immigration Office on the issue, and received the response that health insurance will NOT be required for any extension of stay.

Note: That response is in line with the rationale to ONLY impose the health insurance requirement for those  applying for a Non Imm OA Visa in their home-country < see my post #150 >

 

But were does people on a Non 0 or O/A visa to begin with?

[Thaidream]

27 minutes ago, Nowisee said:

What say you?

I say the only logical way for the whole scheme to work is

 

1.  Everyone currently on an O-A  issued prior to  31 October 2019- is grandfathered .The insurance  requirement does not apply / This is only fair because a change in a law should never be retroactive.

 

2.  anyone obtaining a Non O-A after 31 Oct 2019 has the insurance requirement.

 

3.  After the second year when an extension of stay is needed- then the requirement for money in the bank goes into force plus the insurance requirement.

 

4.  A person who applies for an extension of stay based upon marriage but is till on an O-A as their original Visa class then reverts to an O status but must extend continuosly on marriage.  If later they revert to retirement the insurance applies.  As an alternative- the married person can leave the country and re-enter with a new O visa.

 

The whole issue for insurance  are retired long stay 1 year Visa holders in the O-A class but IMO past O-A holers should not be penalizex.

[Peter Denis]

2 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

But were does people on a Non 0 or O/A visa to begin with?

Hi Mango Bob > Can you rephrase the question?  It's not clear for me what you are asking or looking for.

[Peter Denis]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I say the only logical way for the whole scheme to work is

 

1.  Everyone currently on an O-A  issued prior to  31 October 2019- is grandfathered .The insurance  requirement does not apply / This is only fair because a change in a law should never be retroactive.

 

2.  anyone obtaining a Non O-A after 31 Oct 2019 has the insurance requirement.

 

3.  After the second year when an extension of stay is needed- then the requirement for money in the bank goes into force plus the insurance requirement.

 

4.  A person who applies for an extension of stay based upon marriage but is till on an O-A as their original Visa class then reverts to an O status but must extend continuosly on marriage.  If later they revert to retirement the insurance applies.  As an alternative- the married person can leave the country and re-enter with a new O visa.

 

The whole issue for insurance  are retired long stay 1 year Visa holders in the O-A class but IMO past O-A holers should not be penalizex.

1. and 2. fully correct.
3. and 4. IMO not applicable, because the health insurance will NOT be required for extensions of stay.