Healthcare may trump Brexit in battle for British vote

[beautifulthailand99]

3 hours ago, Sticky Wicket said:

Must be true then, from the Guardian. Another labour activist trying to gain political points

Fact free rebuttal.Anyway anyone want to help 100 0f thousands of folk help Labour in the marginals here's how you can  help. I'll be going to Croydon to help with 'stuffing' envelopes. 

 

https://www.mycampaignmap.com/

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

“This government has put our NHS into crisis, and this election is a once-in-a-generation chance to end privatisation in our NHS, give it the funding it needs,” Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said on Wednesday,

He obviously does not understand that the NHS is being destroyed by the bureaucrats that want to fund fancy new buildings and more managers, than actually look after patients.

I worked in the NHS for 10 years and it is being let down by the people in charge.

Gordon Brown threw 6 billion quid at the NHS and the managers wasted most of it.

The answer is not more money, the answer is less bureaucracy and better managers.

Privatisation happens because the consultants want to get rich and they have far too much influence in the NHS.

Brilliant concept destroyed by greedy people.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Sticky Wicket said:

There is a serious amount of waste and bureaucracy to this day.

Loads of corruption in the hospital I worked in, where consultants used NHS staff to look after private patients and get very rich.

[beautifulthailand99]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He obviously does not understand that the NHS is being destroyed by the bureaucrats that want to fund fancy new buildings and more managers, than actually look after patients.

I worked in the NHS for 10 years and it is being let down by the people in charge.

Gordon Brown threw 6 billion quid at the NHS and the managers wasted most of it.

The answer is not more money, the answer is less bureaucracy and better managers.

Privatisation happens because the consultants want to get rich and they have far too much influence in the NHS.

Brilliant concept destroyed by greedy people.

Maybe the (ex?) manager on this thread can offer some insight. The perceived wisdom from the frontline staff seems to be there are too many 'managers' in the NHS. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Say whatever you like it's doubtful Labour will win and scaremongering about the NHS is just lies and you know it. I'd be staggered if Corbyn got anywhere near becoming PM.

We don't agree on what you refer to as scaremongering on the NHS and lies. 

 

When the US Ambassador to the Court of St James stated that he expected the NHS to be included in any US/UK trade deal and then this was repeated by Trump, it was not some coincidental double slip of the tongue.

 

The health services and pharma lobbies in the US are amongst the most powerful, Trump and his ambassador did not dream up the statements they made, they absolutely will have been expressing the policies that they are working towards on behalf of the US health services and pharma industries. The clue is in 'America First'.

 

That Trump retracted his comments after meeting with Johnson is not an example of Johnson having more sway over Trump than the US health services and pharma lobbyists, it is an example of Johnson telling Trump not to let the cat out of the bag.

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 hours ago, Sticky Wicket said:

When Beveridge wrote his report in wartime about health he couldn't envisage the scenario of today. 

Bevan implemented it in the late 40's when there was virtually zero immigration too, so he couldn't have foreseen the strain that would have been put on it by a surging population.

It helped women and children immensely who had suffered badly pre NHS as they found it hard to get affordable healthcare.

 

There is a serious amount of waste and bureaucracy to this day.

Well, in that case that makes the NHS' performance even more extraordinary. The percentage of GDP devoted to the medical care in the UK stands at 9.8%. (This figure includes non-governmental health care)

In the US it's 17.8%

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184968/us-health-expenditure-as-percent-of-gdp-since-1960/

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I guess your one of the people who thinks the NHS doesn't need managing then?  I hold a masters degree in health management (MSc) and I was a full member of the Institute of Health Care Managers and I think I might know something about the subject. It is true that many health care professionals are great at their subject, and I would not think to give medical advice, but are purely ignorant when it comes to managing health care. It is a puerile argument to suggest it's 'admins' fault. It is the weak legislators fault for allowing free health care for anyone outside of UK.

There is no doubt the NHS is the envy of the world but we give an inch and they take a mile. It needs strict management and Labour never did that.

When did we last have a Labour government?

[Sujo]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Almost unheard of..yes..except for Obama's direct supporting of the remain option and the EU in 2106.

Which wasnt an election.

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Which wasnt an election.

Yes, it was a referendum. Sample principle but with more direct interference, with the aim of influence.

 

Obama set a precedent.

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I worked in the NHS for most of my career. This scaremongering goes back to the 1980s. No Tory government would ever dare to dismantle the NHS and 'sell out' to the USA. 

The NHS is free 'at point of delivery' and is hugely expensive catering to just about anybody who walks in the door. It needs controlling. 

And yet it's the least expensive national health care service out of all the developed nations. Well, maybe they wouldn't dare to dismantle it, but they sure have dared to impose cutbacks.

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

 

[BobBKK]

12 hours ago, bristolboy said:

And yet it's the least expensive national health care service out of all the developed nations. Well, maybe they wouldn't dare to dismantle it, but they sure have dared to impose cutbacks.

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

 

"least expensive national health care service out of all the developed nations"  source?  the USA and most other countries don't have a national health service. 
 

It has to be managed and one way that was done was the tendering/outsourcing process for support services (which I was heavily involved in). Saved millions and millions.

[Kwasaki]

On 11/1/2019 at 5:47 PM, edwinchester said:

I have a couple of American friends and they think the NHS is fantastic compared to the US option that can bankrupt you even if you're insured.

I'd never vote for the Tories as they'd sell it out to the US healthcare conglomerates.

Scare tactics that's all,  there's private hospitals already in UK and it's people have had that choice of which to use for many years already.

 

"Asked about whether the health service would be up for grabs in trade talks, Trump said: “No, not at all, we wouldn’t even be involved in that, no.”

“No. It’s not for us to have anything to do with your healthcare system,” he said. “No, we’re just talking about trade.”

[DannyCarlton]

39 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

It has to be managed and one way that was done was the tendering/outsourcing process for support services (which I was heavily involved in). Saved millions and millions.

Edited 18 minutes ago by BobBKK

And you were part of the problem One of the areas outsourced were cleaners.

 

This directly led to the dramatic rise in hospital aquired infections, which killed many.

 

That's the problem with admin/auditors. It's all about the money. Budgets get cut and patients die.

 

From 2005: https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tpp/pap/2010/00000038/00000003/art00008?crawler=true

 

"This article argues that there is a relationship between competitive tendering and outsourcing the cleaning service, cleaning quality and the incidence of HCAIs"

 

 

[samran]

33 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

"least expensive national health care service out of all the developed nations"  source?  the USA and most other countries don't have a national health service. 
 

It has to be managed and one way that was done was the tendering/outsourcing process for support services (which I was heavily involved in). Saved millions and millions.

No....all other OECD (ie 'developed') nations have a national health service in one form or another.

[edwinchester]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Scare tactics that's all,  there's private hospitals already in UK and it's people have had that choice of which to use for many years already.

 

"Asked about whether the health service would be up for grabs in trade talks, Trump said: “No, not at all, we wouldn’t even be involved in that, no.”

“No. It’s not for us to have anything to do with your healthcare system,” he said. “No, we’re just talking about trade.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-us-trade-deal-trump-boris-johnson-healthcare-drug-prices-liz-truss-a9175261.html

 

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/trumps-plan-nhs-channel-4-dispatches

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-48516196/trump-nhs-on-the-table-in-us-uk-trade-deal

 

Trump lies through his teeth, it's in his genes.

[bristolboy]

50 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

"least expensive national health care service out of all the developed nations"  source?  the USA and most other countries don't have a national health service. 
 

It has to be managed and one way that was done was the tendering/outsourcing process for support services (which I was heavily involved in). Saved millions and millions.

Yes you're correct. Is that significant, though?  Now wriggle your way out of this one: The US spends the biggest percentage of its GDP on health care out of any nation in the world. And not just as a percentage of GDP. In absolute terms the USA also spends more per capita than any other OECD nation. And unlike many OECD nations, it doesn't even offer universal coverage.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, edwinchester said:

Trump lies through his teeth, it's in his genes.

Boris will deal with Trump, if US health insurance companies want to provide UK with treatment they can and already have for years.

Bupa is the UK's big one for 50 fifty years but there teaming up with a US company.

Snippet ;-

"The largest players in the UK private healthcare market are HCA, BMI, Spire, Ramsay and Nuffield Health. The spotlight currently rests on the most sizeable of these companies, HCA. The US-based corporation owns six of London's seventeen  private hospitals, including the Lister Fertility Clinic, the Wellington and the Portland."

 

 

[edwinchester]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Boris will deal with Trump, if US health insurance companies want to provide UK with treatment they can and already have for years.

Bupa is the UK's big one for 50 fifty years but there teaming up with a US company.

Snippet ;-

"The largest players in the UK private healthcare market are HCA, BMI, Spire, Ramsay and Nuffield Health. The spotlight currently rests on the most sizeable of these companies, HCA. The US-based corporation owns six of London's seventeen  private hospitals, including the Lister Fertility Clinic, the Wellington and the Portland."

 

 

I don't care about private hospitals and health insurance. I care about the NHS and the care it provides to people, such as my aging parents, who can't afford private healthcare.

In just a few short years I have seen the services they both receive noticeably decline.

They've both paid a lifetime of NI contributions and deserve better.

[BritManToo]

On 11/2/2019 at 3:01 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

He obviously does not understand that the NHS is being destroyed by the bureaucrats that want to fund fancy new buildings and more managers, than actually look after patients.

I worked in the NHS for 10 years and it is being let down by the people in charge.

Gordon Brown threw 6 billion quid at the NHS and the managers wasted most of it.

The answer is not more money, the answer is less bureaucracy and better managers.

Privatisation happens because the consultants want to get rich and they have far too much influence in the NHS.

Brilliant concept destroyed by greedy people.

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

[DannyCarlton]

17 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

That's the problem. Doctor's pay doesn't get near to other similarly qualified jobs so no one wants to do the training any more.

[Chomper Higgot]

52 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

Because driving down wages always improves service?!

[tebee]

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Yes you're correct. Is that significant, though?  Now wriggle your way out of this one: The US spends the biggest percentage of its GDP on health care out of any nation in the world. And not just as a percentage of GDP. In absolute terms the USA also spends more per capita than any other OECD nation. And unlike many OECD nations, it doesn't even offer universal coverage.

and not only that, manages to have far worse outcomes on all the metrics than any other developed country.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

So you expect people to do 9-11 years training to get a low paid job?

and I'm sure the rest of the world would be pleased you trained all those doctor for them......

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

So you expect people to do 9-11 years training to get a low paid job?

I thought they all did it for humanity?

If you went for a university medical course interview and said it was for the money, you'd be rejected.

[samran]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

More doctors yes, but anyone who has spent any length of time in hospital knows that it’s the nurses and allied care workers who do most of the front line work. You’d be lucky to see a doctor for 15 minutes a day in normal rounds. 
 

More training for these nurses in particular giving them remit to make certain decisions that only doctors now make would be a good start. Would save doctors time.

 

Preventive medicine is another one, as yep, your blokes favourites, more taxes on fats, salt, sugary and other assorted junk foods. Why? Cause you end up having to treat the cumulative causes of these, so if you are going to screw up your body and expect to be treated for it, you may as well pay for it. 
 

But lower wages for doctors and nurses? Nup.

 

The last thing I want are my medical professionals doing a side shift at tescos or driving an Uber after they’ve just done an 18 hour stint.  

[Credo]

4 hours ago, samran said:

<snipped>

But lower wages for doctors and nurses? Nup.

 

The last thing I want are my medical professionals doing a side shift at tescos or driving an Uber after they’ve just done an 18 hour stint.  

You don't want your doctor doing a side shift after an 18 hour stint.   I don't want my Uber driver driving me after an 18 hour shift!

 

[kingdong]

On 11/2/2019 at 11:23 AM, RuamRudy said:

When did we last have a Labour government?

The last 3 Labour governments were too busy waging war at bushes request in the middle east.

[Baerboxer]

On 11/1/2019 at 5:47 PM, edwinchester said:

I have a couple of American friends and they think the NHS is fantastic compared to the US option that can bankrupt you even if you're insured.

I'd never vote for the Tories as they'd sell it out to the US healthcare conglomerates.

 

Can you show us where in any Conservative election manifesto, conference report, policy etc the Conservative Party state they will sell out the NHS to US health conglomerates?

 

Or if not, concede, that you've fallen for another Momentum lie?

[Baerboxer]

17 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I could cure all the problems in the NHS in five to seven years.

Train 1 million new doctors so they're fighting each other for lower paid jobs.

 

And the Mastermind Economic Genius Award for 2019 goes to.......................................................

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Can you show us where in any Conservative election manifesto, conference report, policy etc the Conservative Party state they will sell out the NHS to US health conglomerates?

 

Or if not, concede, that you've fallen for another Momentum lie?

You seem to believe a Post Brexit British government desperate for a trade deal with the US would have any say in the matter.

 

And you also seem to believe the Tories would be open and transparent with their plans:

 

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/trumps-plan-nhs-channel-4-dispatches