7 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Can you find any proof that there were not scores of spurious income claims? Neither can the US, UK and Aus Embassies without significant extra work and an alternation to existing freedoms of information laws. 

 

The issue exists with the Thai Authorities requiring notarised verification of something which cannot properly be verified.

 

Why do other embassies continue to verify income? Maybe their laws on freedom of information differ or their notary system is not legally binding to the same degree? (I’ve no idea, but I understand why those who don’t have now refused).

The Danish embassy also stopped issuing income letters.

But they opened up again in another way, now they want you to have your pensions giver state or private to send proof of pensions directly to the embassy and the letters shall be in the English language. The Danish embassy then stamp and sign the letters from your pensions givers for THB 1000 pr letter and this you can then use to get your extension at immigration.

As my immigration office had not seen income letters in this way before I had difficulty to get the extension, but I succeeded after some hours.

And one of my pension companies were 2 month to send the letter to the embassy, so good for me that I was in good time with the job.

2 minutes ago, perconrad said:

The Danish embassy also stopped issuing income letters.

And you will presumably be required to provide the same every year?

Fortunate the pensions reach the 65kbaht requirement too. 

18 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

From the British Embassy's POV that's just false and slanderous. I have never heard of a case of anyone submitting forged documents to verify their incomes. Can you quote one?

Yes, I have. I know somebody who didn't have 800k and he didn't have 65k pm to show the British Embassy to get an income letter. He just had his state pension and small private pension amounting to about 50k pm. This is what another British expat from Pattaya advised him to do:

 

1. Download a blank UK house rental agreement from the internet and complete it with any name and an address for the place he came from in the UK, the town where he held his UK bank account.

 

2. For three months prior to needing his Embassy letter, every month recycle the value of the rent back into his UK bank account to show up as rental income on his bank statement.

 

3. For proof of income to the BE he supplied his three month bank statements. the two annual pension statements and the house rental agreement, amounting in total to around 70k pm. 

 

He did this successfully for several years and was never ever questioned about the information he supplied.

 

He's now back in the UK because the new Thai monthly income rules put paid to his forged phantom income fiddle.

 

 

2 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

Yes, I have. I know somebody who didn't have 800k and he didn't have 65k pm to show the British Embassy to get an income letter. He just had his state pension and small private pension amounting to about 50k pm. This is what another British expat from Pattaya advised him to do:

 

1. Download a blank UK house rental agreement from the internet and complete it with any name and an address for the place he came from in the UK, the town where he held his UK bank account.

 

2. For three months prior to needing his Embassy letter, every month recycle the value of the rent back into his UK bank account to show up as rental income on his bank statement.

 

3. For proof of income to the BE he supplied his three month bank statements. the two annual pension statements and the house rental agreement, amounting in total to around 70k pm. 

 

He did this successfully for several years and was never ever questioned about the information he supplied.

 

He's now back in the UK because the new Thai monthly income rules put paid to his forged phantom income fiddle.

 

 

Would have been a lot easier and safer for him to pay an agent to secure a visa extension. He could still be doing that today.

2 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Would have been a lot easier and safer for him to pay an agent to secure a visa extension. He could still be doing that today.

Why, if the Embassy refused to issue the letter, he could have  done as you suggest and use the agent (having the 15,000 baht hopefully). Had the Embassy issued the letter, as it did, he was good to go. Seems a valid substantiation of either the Embassy's future actions or that of the Thai authorities to me. 

Just now, DannyCarlton said:

Would have been a lot easier and safer for him to pay an agent to secure a visa extension. He could still be doing that today.

It didn't cost him a penny his way. He would have had to pay an agent, and as he said to me, that would cost him nearly half a months pension and what the agent would have to do for that money would also be illegal.

 

But the point of relaying his story was to show how easy it was to forge documentation and information to the British Embassy. And I'm sure the expat who originally supplied the 'how to' info had told many others as well.

28 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

Yes, I have. I know somebody who didn't have 800k and he didn't have 65k pm to show the British Embassy to get an income letter. He just had his state pension and small private pension amounting to about 50k pm. This is what another British expat from Pattaya advised him to do:

 

1. Download a blank UK house rental agreement from the internet and complete it with any name and an address for the place he came from in the UK, the town where he held his UK bank account.

 

2. For three months prior to needing his Embassy letter, every month recycle the value of the rent back into his UK bank account to show up as rental income on his bank statement.

 

3. For proof of income to the BE he supplied his three month bank statements. the two annual pension statements and the house rental agreement, amounting in total to around 70k pm. 

 

He did this successfully for several years and was never ever questioned about the information he supplied.

 

He's now back in the UK because the new Thai monthly income rules put paid to his forged phantom income fiddle.

 

 

 

I suppose your friends case proves the Thai Immigration clampdown is working.

 

No one can argue that fraud = bad boys = out.

9 hours ago, Max69xl said:

"Maybe their laws on freedom of information differ or their notary system is not legally binding to the same degree?"

What are you rambling about? What has freedom of information got to do with a stamped and signed document showing 100% correct government pension? Plus exactly same type of documents showing pensions from insurance companies and/or banks. These documents (4 of them) are what my embassy/consulate requires to be able to issue an income letter for Immigration. It takes the embassy/consulate maybe 30 minutes to transfer each sum from my documents to the income letter. Then it's stamped and signed. Immigration looks at it 10 seconds and is satisfied. That's the way it should work. 

if you don’t know the answer to that then you can’t be helped. 
Freedom of information is a big issue with income verification, it’s extremely difficult for the Embassy’s to independently verify someone’s income. 

4 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Much more importantly, before making totally false and slanderous accusations, can you find even one shred of evidence?

 

In the case of the British Embassy, those that didn't have the nessesary income to qualify for an income letter, rather than try to create and submit forged documents to the embassy, a very risky enterprise, simply payed an agent 10-15k baht annually who did everything for them and they odtained their extensions free of stress. As they do now.

 

In the case of US citizens:

 

You want to see proof that people have lied about their income? 
 

How could I possibly have that? You know that’s impossible, as impossible as you having proof that you haven’t. 
 

That said, I know employees of the FCO, it is their comments I have passed along regarding the impossibility of being able to verify income and they suspected numbers of exaggerated claims - You’re now going to ask me for Proof of this which I obviously don’t have.

 

it’s just getting silly, if you can’t understand the issues just keep on crying.

On 11/16/2019 at 3:06 PM, elviajero said:

I seem to recall the Embassy quoted as saying it was about 25/day. That puts it at around 6.5K/year.

 

Actually verifying the income for 25 people everyday from the many different income sources would be an administrative nightmare and often impractical. That being the reason it’s been stopped.

With a 5 day working week, it is actually less than half that number.

 

19 minutes ago, Seismic said:

 

On 11/16/2019 at 8:06 AM, elviajero said:

I seem to recall the Embassy quoted as saying it was about 25/day. That puts it at around 6.5K/year.

 

Actually verifying the income for 25 people everyday from the many different income sources would be an administrative nightmare and often impractical. That being the reason it’s been stopped.

With a 5 day working week, it is actually less than half that number.

 

25 letters/day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks/year

 

25 x 5 x 52 = 6,500.

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

25 letters/day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks/year

 

25 x 5 x 52 = 6,500.

How do you know they worked with those letters 8 hours every day,5 days a week? I have a hard time believing that 25 persons showed up every day for an income letter. Didn't any retired UK citizen use the 800k in the bank method? 

13 hours ago, Max69xl said:

How do you know they worked with those letters 8 hours every day,5 days a week? I have a hard time believing that 25 persons showed up every day for an income letter. Didn't any retired UK citizen use the 800k in the bank method? 

Nobody turned up, It was all completed via either post or email.

On 11/17/2019 at 2:40 PM, KenKadz said:

" Embassies were unwilling to sign off on a legal document they were unable to verify"

So the Embassies lied to the Thai Government about their citizens income for 40 years right?

The Immigration Act, 1979 - Thai visas, residency and work permits ...

https://forum.thaivisa.com › ... › Thai visas, residency and work permits

Jan 24, 2004 - For the benefits of all who are interested. Hope it clears up some doubts. And ... it will stir up more doubts, no doubts ...

How do they lie? I can only speak for the German embassy methods but they seem quite rigorose to me. The proof you bring must be original letters/statements from the pension provider and monthly bank receipts of this money going into a German bank account, that would seem seem enough proof to me to say "we can verify this." I don't agree that statements can be forged successfully, I unwittingly gave them a copy of my British pension statement along with my German pension statements, the British copy was immediately refused, although I could see no difference they could, I had to supply them with the original and it was then accepted as proof.

On 11/17/2019 at 1:19 PM, wgdanson said:

Do you want to see MY application from last year !   LOL

You show me yours and I'll show you mine ????

 

On 11/17/2019 at 2:55 PM, allanos said:

If the British Embassy were able to issue income letters for circa 40 years, having verified the submissions or not, what was the reason for the change of heart NOW? Speculation and reasons put forward so far do not really hold water.

Generally the British embassy will not sate that anything is genuine. For passport coppies they were only willing to state that it was "a true copy of the document handed to them"

There is a big difference between verifying a self written letter about someone's income and NON  GOVERNMENT documents that show it   ,   and  verifying an  Old Age Pension   , which IS  a GOVT DOCUMENT.  I don't see why the Aussie Embassy ( or govt policy makers ) can't allow verification of the OAP .

No one needs to go back to the original source to verify anything because most likely that source will not co-opereate due to privacy laws and the burden of doing this is difficult due to distance and time.

 

The solution is easy-  an applicant self certifies under oaht that the info presented is true and correct by signing the affadvait and showing the following

 

A.  A letter with an embossed letterhead showing the source of income and the amounts.

B.  A bank statement showing the same amounts going into the account and the source of deposit.

 

If needed- an ATM card or other documentation showing amounts sent to Thailand or ATM slips showing withdeawals from Thailand.

 

Did some people lie and break the law- probably but not a significant number.  Certainly an Embassy Employee can look at a document presented and see if the right forms are presented; the numbers match and cross match.  

 

The Oath or a statement on the affadavit indicating the affadavit is subject to the penalty of perjury if one has lied puts the applicant  in a position that they can be prosecuted if lied or documents forged.

This process is used by various Governments already including in the US where people who do lie on affadavits are caught and prosecuted.

 

The Freedom of Information  provided from the UK apparently shows that a Thai Colonel from Immigration intimated that the Embassies had to verify from source and of all the Embassies in Thailand only 3 decided they had to stop the letters.  Why?  

 

The 3 Embassies issued simlar statements to their public which indicated they must have discussed how to stop the letters and they used the reason they could not comply but 80 other Embassies still issue the letters-

 

Interestingly, it appears the Brritish Embassy has moved and made a local staff cut.  The US Embassy appointment calendar is much less than when the letters were issued indicating a loss of business and  applicants for service. 

 

Now the 3 Embassies have lost a good deal of revenue and their citizens  send monies from their home countries to Thailand at much larger amounts- causing deposit loss in the UK USA and Australia and surging deposits in Thailand. In addition, there are tax implications in each country.  To what end?

 

IMO the real reason the Embassies stopped the letters was that they did not want to staff for the added volume and collaborated with each other to make it happen.  Their Memos back to their home offices used the  reason that they could not comply  with Thai Imm but I am ceertain also indicated the letters were merely a courtesy whose elimination would cause no real harm since there are other ways for applicants to get their extensions.

I would love to see the letters sent from the local Embassy back to their home offices but I have a feeling those will never be available.

 

 

Looking at the 2018 figure based on a 5 day week that would be no more than 12 letters per day if you took off the amount of holidays that the U.K. Embassy has in a year it would be around 10 letters a day a loss of income of around 25/30 thousand baht a day . Wish I could earn that amount of money for printing off a formatted letter 

 

On 11/16/2019 at 4:10 PM, elviajero said:

Yes, but less the cost of the staff and administrative costs required to carry out the verification.

And just imagine the hassle having to chase up slow replies and the grief from the expats waiting weeks/months for their letters!

UK Embassy apparently found issuing new passports a hassle, so they sub-contracted it out. The system now works well as I renewed my PP last November at Trendy Building.

It wouldn't have been 'rocket science' to have done the same with the income letters. I would gladly have paid 5,000 baht a year to a company who upon receiving my enduring Power of Attorney could verify my income every year. The first verification would probably be the most difficult, but let's not forget pensions are paid for life, so once verified the yearly process onwards would be very simple.

IMO GOV UK let us down very badly, because they most likely didn't consider other alternatives. Lazy b####rds!

On 11/16/2019 at 12:35 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Thats exactly why some Embassies stopped with the Verification on Income letter.

 

It was impossible for them to be able to accurately verify the income of all requests without a larger team, significant leg work and cost. 

 

Too many people were outright lying on their income claims and the Embassies were unwilling to sign off on a legal document they were unable to verify. 

 

Of course, people blamed the Embassies for their change of policy, however, really its the immigration requirement which is awkward for some to meet and when they can't they unfairly complain at their Embassy for not being willing to verify / notaries their spurious income claim. 

 

Basically, some folk are upset they can't use their Embassy to lie for them. 

that is why the embassies should put a bid out for a third party company to process income verifications.  Lay out ground rules, examples of income readily verified and certified, types of documents expected, etc.  Charge a reasonable fee, and the company after doing their research and diligence, send a notice to the embassy that income is verified then the embassy issues the proper letter.  Should be easy to set up. 

On 11/17/2019 at 1:14 PM, jesimps said:

"Too many people were outright lying on their income claims and the Embassies were unwilling to sign off on a legal document they were unable to verify."

 

Grateful for some verifiable examples, or are you just making it up as you go along? I think too many people are tending to make this statement just to make Thai immigration look blameless for some reason. Rose-colopured specs maybe?

You seem a bit naive or you haven't got any 'close friends' from the UK who told you the truth.

Any comments on the quite low number, 3138 for 2018, and that also included some other certificates? 

Here we go again, water under the bridge. What purpose does a poll like this serve?

 

How about holding a poll in August next year to establish how many Brits were successful in getting an extension without having their hand held by the embassy.

 

Another interesting side poll might be 'how many Brits had to leave because they could no longer meet the requirements?' Although I doubt whether we'll get too many answers to that one!

 

And just as a foot note here, when one of the embassy staff agreed to an interview with an English language radio station. (I think it was in Pattaya) she was asked at the time how many income letters they issued in a year and she answered that question correctly. I recall her saying around 2,600 (or there abouts).

 

So there's been no lies or cover ups on this issue. Everything that the embassy said back then in relation to the demise of the letters and what the way forward would be (i.e. proof of income via a bank account) has come to pass.

 

So just why do folks keep raking this matter up?

 

 

On 11/16/2019 at 1:06 AM, elviajero said:

I seem to recall the Embassy quoted as saying it was about 25/day. That puts it at around 6.5K/year.

 

Actually verifying the income for 25 people everyday from the many different income sources would be an administrative nightmare and often impractical. That being the reason it’s been stopped.

The embassy could quickly verify what it had access to, then note all other income sources "unverifiable". Maybe they could verify income equal to 40,000b a month, not 65,000. Still, using the income/bank deposit combination method, you would need 320,000b in the bank, not 800,000. Big improvement. Why throw it all out the window?

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

How do they lie? I can only speak for the German embassy methods but they seem quite rigorose to me. The proof you bring must be original letters/statements from the pension provider and monthly bank receipts of this money going into a German bank account, that would seem seem enough proof to me to say "we can verify this." I don't agree that statements can be forged successfully, I unwittingly gave them a copy of my British pension statement along with my German pension statements, the British copy was immediately refused, although I could see no difference they could, I had to supply them with the original and it was then accepted as proof.

Don't compare income letters from the German embassy and the old letters from the UK embassy. You need stamped and signed original documents showing your pension.

The documents handed over to the UK embassy were sometimes not more than sworn testaments,not stamped and signed original documents. Do you see the difference? 

 

31 minutes ago, Mac98 said:

The embassy could quickly verify what it had access to, then note all other income sources "unverifiable". Maybe they could verify income equal to 40,000b a month, not 65,000. Still, using the income/bank deposit combination method, you would need 320,000b in the bank, not 800,000. Big improvement. Why throw it all out the window?

I know several guys from the UK,they don't have even close to 320k in the bank. 

7 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

I know several guys from the UK,they don't have even close to 320k in the bank. 

Neither do I. I think if you can prove you are not homeless and paying your rent on time that should be good enough. And if being married to a Thai cuts your needed deposit from 800,000b to 400,000, then having two Thai wives should cut it by half again to 200,000. 

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

Here we go again, water under the bridge. What purpose does a poll like this serve?

 

How about holding a poll in August next year to establish how many Brits were successful in getting an extension without having their hand held by the embassy.

 

Another interesting side poll might be 'how many Brits had to leave because they could no longer meet the requirements?' Although I doubt whether we'll get too many answers to that one!

 

And just as a foot note here, when one of the embassy staff agreed to an interview with an English language radio station. (I think it was in Pattaya) she was asked at the time how many income letters they issued in a year and she answered that question correctly. I recall her saying around 2,600 (or there abouts).

 

So there's been no lies or cover ups on this issue. Everything that the embassy said back then in relation to the demise of the letters and what the way forward would be (i.e. proof of income via a bank account) has come to pass.

 

So just why do folks keep raking this matter up?

 

 

Please read my post #80 above if you haven't already done so.

Maybe we keep raking the matter up because the Embassy Income letters stated gross pension amount(s) not nett after tax. As a UK tax payer this means that anyone near the 40/65K monthly threshold(s) might be at a disadvantage if they pay UK income tax , as I do, when exchange rates are falling, as they have. Bank statements always show the lower nett amount paid.

Yes, their is still just about a so called embassy in LOS, but not doing income letters further diminishes their need to be here. The Embassy is more of a trade mission for entertaining purposes than anything else!

2 hours ago, joebrown said:

UK Embassy apparently found issuing new passports a hassle, so they sub-contracted it out. The system now works well as I renewed my PP last November at Trendy Building.

It wouldn't have been 'rocket science' to have done the same with the income letters. I would gladly have paid 5,000 baht a year to a company who upon receiving my enduring Power of Attorney could verify my income every year. The first verification would probably be the most difficult, but let's not forget pensions are paid for life, so once verified the yearly process onwards would be very simple.

IMO GOV UK let us down very badly, because they most likely didn't consider other alternatives. Lazy b####rds!

No they didn’t. That action/decision was taken by the Home Office. Passports were processed in Hong Kong before VFS took over in Bangkok. 

 

You must be sending money to Thailand to live on so just increase the transfer frequency to monthly and you’re sorted.