International Medical Insurance Vs Thai Health Insurance

[4MyEgo]

I am on the marriage extension and have private health cover from an international health insurer (David Shield) through AA Brokers here in Thailand, and in the policy they cover a pre-existing condition of mine.

 

The above said, I have been reading about those unfortunate souls that are on the non O/A, i.e. after 31 October are required to have Thai medical insurance otherwise immigration will not allow them to enter or renew their extensions, and if I am to understand this to be correct, immigration also doesn't recognise any medical insurers outside of Thailand (which I feel if this is correct, to be totally unconstitutional), I will leave that there.

 

My concern is that if the above is correct, how on earth is one supposed to get proper medical health insurance from a Thai medical insurer who would be prepared to cover and honour a pre-existing condition as it was hard enough finding one that would accept my pre-existing condition (David Shield), after I was knocked back by two previous international insurers, Cigna and Pacific Cross.

 

I know the above doesn't concern me yet as the non O/A debacle hasn't spread to other visas/extensions, yet, but have heard most Thai insurers are inept of understanding anything to do with pre-existing conditions and or do not cover them and do not pay up when there is a problem.

 

I know those are big statements, but only going off of what I have read, and if this requirement spreads into other visas/extensions, what then, will we all  be forced to take out medical insurance through a Thai insurer because some numbnut has come up with some brainstorm idea to fill his pockets from forcing us to get insurance from Thai insurance companies which are not the preferred for most farangs for reasons mentioned above, plus, plus, plus.

 

Yes I am venting and at the same time would like to think that I am preparing to exit Thailand if this does spread into other visas/extensions.

 

Anyone up to speed on this and does anyone know of any option which would include a Thai insurer who is at least reputable if one needs to make the change, but I can't see that happening because of the pre-existing condition being a prerequisite of mine, especially when one is forking out thousands of $'s for cover, yes, I don't accept things because people say that's the way it is.

 

Thanks in advance for any constructive input.

Edited December 8, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[suzannegoh]

Is it a confirmed fact that Immigration will only accept Thai medical insurance policies and not International medical insurance policies when applying for an extension of an OA visa?

[BestB]

Have said it before and will let repeat for you again, do not be so excited about your David shields policy, there are nothing but bad feedback so far about them and it’s only sold through 1 broker at a rather cheap price with conditions not offered by anyone else.

 

you heard the saying “ when it’s too good to be true   It most likely is not “

[Sheryl]

It will be accepted for initial visa application IF the insurer will fill out a specified form (which most will not due to how it is worded) OR  the Embassy/Consulate issuing the visa agrees to accept other documentation.

 

Once the period of the insurance (notated by the Embassy on the visa) ends, which will usually be not more than 1 year, only Thai policies in the "list" will be accepted.

 

One possible option for people newly coming here might be to use the OA only for the duration of their foreign insurance then return to their country abd get a new OA visa again applying their foreign insurance (assuming Embassy/Consulate accepts it). This could work for someone who is not seeking to totally settle in Thailand but rather just spend a lot of time here....probided they can find a solution to the "certificate" problem.

 

It is indeed the case that many of us would not be able to get one of the designated Thai policies (cost aside) due to age or pre existing conditions. Majority of the listed companies  do not newly insure past age 65 and also do not renew for life.

 

There are a few  exceptions; as long as not over 75 and having no pre existing conditions some sort of policy can be obtained. And healthy people under 60 have several options. But over 75 or with pre-existing conditions, there are currently  no options.

 

There is a pinned thread in this forum that summarizes these policies.

 

It is true that the regulatory framework for Health Insurance in Thailand is quite weak/unfavorable and allows things that Western insurers would not be allowed to do. It is also true that local  underwriters have poor training/understanding of medical conditions and are unable to make complex decisions/distinctions so will tend to just reject an applicant or apply sweeping exclusions that make little sense.

 

The health insurance sector in Thailand is quite small since Thais have universal cover through government schemes. Most of the companies on the list primarily do motor vehicle, life, accident insurance and health is a tiny sideline; a few have never done health insurance before.

[Sheryl]

24 minutes ago, BestB said:

Have said it before and will let repeat for you again, do not be so excited about your David shields policy, there are nothing but bad feedback so far about them and it’s only sold through 1 broker at a rather cheap price with conditions not offered by anyone else.

 

you heard the saying “ when it’s too good to be true   It most likely is not “

 

I have had good feedback on David Shield from several people who have it.

 

I don't know how many brokers work with it but it can certainly be obtained direct from the company as well.

 

Please don't scare monger.

 

I don't know of any online sites that offer balanced consumer feedback on expat policy insurers (unfortunately...would be very useful if there was one). The only ones on there are designed for/attract almost solely people with complaints.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

14 minutes ago, BestB said:

Have said it before and will let repeat for you again, do not be so excited about your David shields policy, there are nothing but bad feedback so far about them and it’s only sold through 1 broker at a rather cheap price with conditions not offered by anyone else.

 

you heard the saying “ when it’s too good to be true   It most likely is not “

I usually find when someone posts a negative review about an insurance company, it is usually because they didn't read the policy thoroughly, that said, there are resources to bring an insurance company to the table, like an Ombudsman.

 

I have never had an insurance company not pay, whether it be for a car, house, or travel insurance, due diligence plays a big part when buying or selling something, that said, I am confident with who I have chosen as my insurer, who also covers my pre-existing cover, I don't just throw money at them in the hope that they will cough up in the event, everything is documented, and if an event occurs and they refuse to pay, well like any insurer, you then go to the Ombudsman.

 

To go off of half a dozen bad reviews on Google without substance, i.e. providing full reasons, is not a bad review in my opinion, my own research to my level of satisfaction warranted me to go with them.

 

The above said, we have moved away from what I was asking in my post. 

[BestB]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

I have had good feedback on David Shield from several people who have it.

 

I don't know how many brokers work with it but it can certainly be obtained direct from the company as well.

 

Please don't scare monger.

 

I don't know of any online sites that offer balanced consumer feedback on expat pilucy insurers (unfortunately...would be vert useful if there was one). The only ones on there are designed for/attract almost solely people with complaints.

 

 

I have contacted company direct and never received a response or a follow up, 3 times.

 

just on thai visa alone , 3 topics of “not good feedback “ Perhaps you have some links to sites where people had good feedback 

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

I have contacted company direct and never received a response or a follow up, 3 times.

Was that for a claim, or to look at pricing a policy, or other ?

 

If you went through a broker, who doesn't charge by the way, like AA Insurance brokers in Thailand, they would be doing the leg work for you, however if you have a policy with David Shield direct, which I doubt, you would have to go through them direct, and they have a 24 hour number for claims.

 

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

just on thai visa alone , 3 topics of “not good feedback “ Perhaps you have some links to sites where people had good feedback 

I have not seen this "not good feedback" on TVF, perhaps you can provide that for us ?

[suzannegoh]

29 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It will be accepted for initial visa application IF the insurer will fill out a specified form (which most will not due to how it is worded) OR  the Embassy/Consulate issuing the visa agrees to accept other documentation.

 

Once the period of the insurance (notated by the Embassy on the visa) ends, which will usually be not more than 1 year, only Thai policies in the "list" will be accepted.

 

One possible option for people newly coming here might be to use the OA only for the duration of their foreign insurance then return to their country abd get a new OA visa again applting their foreign insurance (assuming Embassy/Consulate accepts it). This could work for someone who is not seeking to totally settle in Thailand but rather just soend a lot of time here....probided they can find a solution to the "certificate" problem.

 

It is indeed the case that many of us would not be able to get one if the designated Thai policies (cost aside) due to age or pre existing conditions. Majority of the listed companies  do not newly insure past age 65 and also do not renew for life.

 

There are a few  exceptions; as long as not over 75 and having no pre existing conditions some sort of policy can be obtained. And healthy people under 60 have several options. But over 75 or with pre-existing conditions, there are currently  no options.

 

There is a pinned thread in this forum that summarizes these policies.

 

It is true that the regulatory framework for Health Insurance in Thailand is quite weak/unfavorable and allows things that Western insurers would not be allowed to do. It is also true that local  underwriters have poor training/undestanding of medical conditions and are unable to make complex decisions/distinctions so will tend to just reject an applicant or apply sweeping exclusions that make little sense.

 

The health insurance sector in Thailand is quite small since Thais have universal cover through government schemes. Most of the compsnies on the list primarily do motor vehicle, life, accident insurance and health is a tiny sideline; a few have never done health insurance before.

Is there someplace online that I can find that "specified form" that the foreign insurer must fill out? 

Not that I expect Thai bureaucrats to be logical, but I have a worldwide policy written by an American insurer that has limits far above what any Thai policy will pay out and it seems more than a bit bizarre that such a policy would be deemed inadequate.
 

Edited December 8, 2019 by suzannegoh

[MeePeeMai]

3 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

seems more than a bit bizarre that such a policy would be deemed inadequate

Not inadequate, just not profitable (for them).

[BestB]

13 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Was that for a claim, or to look at pricing a policy, or other ?

 

If you went through a broker, who doesn't charge by the way, like AA Insurance brokers in Thailand, they would be doing the leg work for you, however if you have a policy with David Shield direct, which I doubt, you would have to go through them direct, and they have a 24 hour number for claims.

 

I have not seen this "not good feedback" on TVF, perhaps you can provide that for us ?

Claim, I believe it was posted by petermilk and another by Simon and third one I do not recall by whom 

 

I contacted them direct 3 times to get a quote., sales,  and no response or follow up at all

Edited December 8, 2019 by BestB

[Saltire]

I have already decided that if this requirement for OA applies to O in the future, I will (reluctantly) find the absolute cheapest Thai insurance from the list with no intention to use it, ever,

 

I have a UK policy whiich, even with several pre-existing conditions not covered, has a much better benefits. I also have added extra accidental coverage as an 'extra'. Turning 65 soon I'd rather stay with the devil I know.

[Sheryl]

SUZANNEGOH:  It is on the longstay.tgia website. Click on O-A visa then on "companies" and on top of the page is a downliad link.

 

I believe the reason foreign policies are not accepted other than initially comes from Office of Insurance Commission (OIC) regulations which regulate who cab and cannot sell insurance to residents of Thailand. Companies have to go through a process to get "admitted" to provide insurance in Thailand and that pricess seems to require that a Thai company be the actual underwriter. (A protectionist measure presumably). Hence even though there are a few foreign insurance companies licensed to provide insurance in Thailand they can't do their own underwriting and that plys OIC requirements for standard provisions in insurance contracts results in their policies and practices being quite different from the international patent company.

 

The assumption seems to be that people coming on an OA are goinh to permanently settle in Thailand so to keep their international cover would have to renew the policy in Thailand which then runs afoul of OIC rules on who can sell insurance to residents of Thailand. (In practice many expats living in Thailand buy foreign policies online).

 

I don't think it occurred to them that people on OA visas might periodically return to their home country and could keep buying insurance from thete.

 

As I understand it the Health Ministry was fine with the idea of foreign policies. But would have needed the OIC's cooperation and OIC is very rigid and opposed it.

 

To date no US insurer has signed the "foreign insurance certificate" and I doubt any ever will. You'll understand why when you read it.

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, BestB said:

 

I contacted them direct 3 times to get a quote., sales,  and no response or follow up at all

I contacted them once for a quote, by email, and got an immediate reply.

[suzannegoh]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is on the longstay.tgia website. Click on O-A visa then on "companies" and on top of the page is a downliad link.

 

I believe the reason foreign policies are not accepted other than initially comes from Office of Insurance Commission (OIC) regulations which regulate who cab and cannot sell insurance to residents of Thailand. Companies have to go through a process to get "admitted" to provide insurance in Thailand and that pricess seems to require that a Thai company be the actual underwriter. (A protectionist measure presumably). Hence even though there are a few foreign insurance companies licensed to provide insurance in Thailand they can't do their own underwriting and that plys OIC requirements for standard provisions in insurance contracts results in their policies and practices being quite different from the international patent company.

 

The assumption seems to be that people cominh on an OA are goinh to permanently settle in Thailand so to keep their international cover would have to renew the policy in Thailand which then runs afoul of OIC rules on whi can sell insurance to residents of Thailand. (In practice many expats living in Thailand buy foreign policies online).

 

I don't think it occurred to them that people on OA visas mihht periodically return to their home country and could keep buying insurance from thete.

 

As I understand it the Health Ministry was fine with the idea of foreign policies. But would have needed the OIC's cooperation and OIC is very rigid and opposed it.

 

To date no US insurer has signed the "foreign indurance certificate" and I doybt any ever will. You'll understand why when you read it.

Thanks for the tip about where that "Overseas Insurance Certificate" form is.  My insurance policy is sold by Aetna International and is underwritten by Aetna's headquarters in Connecticut.  Now that Bupa is owned by Aetna, do you think that their is any chance than Aetna in Thailand would sign off on that Overseas Insurance Certificate for me?

 

[BestB]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I contacted them once for a quote, by email, and got an immediate reply.

Same here, by email, 3 times  and nothing 

[Sheryl]

Just now, suzannegoh said:

Thanks for the tip about where that "Overseas Insurance Certificate" form is.  My insurance policy is sold by Aetna International and is underwritten by Aetna's headquarters in Connecticut.  Now that Bupa is owned by Aetna, do you think that their is any chance than Aetna in Thailand would sign off on that Overseas Insurance Certificate for me?

 

I very, very much doubt it as these are completely different policies. And different companies (your policy is not with AETNA Thailand and an AETNA Thailand policy would look nothing like what you have).

 

What you need to do assuming yoy are applying for a new OA visa is first ask AETNA US to sign the certificate. When they refuse contact the Thai Embassy/Consulate and explain the problem and ask if you can send a copy of your policy instead.

 

And if this works plan on repeating the process annually with a new OA each time.

[Sheryl]

27 minutes ago, Saltire said:

I have already decided that if this requirement for OA applies to O in the future, I will (reluctantly) find the absolute cheapest Thai insurance from the list with no intention to use it, ever,

 For the same or less money in the long term could get a 20 year Thai Elite visa instead. At least with that you get to use exptess lane at airport immigration. 

[Saltire]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 For the same or less money in the long term could get a 20 year Thai Elite visa instead. At least with that you get to use exptess lane at airport immigration. 

I've often thought about the Elite, as for 200k more on top of the untouchable 800k in the bank, I could be set for the rest of my days here. It would however mean a lesser inheritance or my wife. Also no one can say that this Thai insurance won't eventually be a requirement for Elite as well.

 

 

[RupertIII]

I assume the problem in overseas insurers signing off on this is the following:- for Alien to apply for Non-Immigrant Visa Type O-A (Period not exceeding 1 Year)
in accordance with the Cabinet Resolution, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019)

 

It would be interesting to see an English language translation of this Resolution. Certainly I can't imagine any foreiegn insurer signing off without this.

[suzannegoh]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I very, very much doubt it as these are completely different policies. And different companies (your policy is not with AETNA Thailand and an AETNA Thailand policy would look nothing like what you have).

 

What you need to do assuming yoy are applying for a new OA visa is first ask AETNA US to sign the certificate. When they refuse contact the Thai Embassy/Consulate and explain the problem and ask if you can send a copy of your policy instead.

 

And if this works plan on repeating the process annually with a new OA each time.

I wouldn't be applying for a new OA but for an extension of stay based upon retirement.

You're correct that the Aetna Thailand policies look nothing like the Aetna International policies.  The main differences are that Aetna's International policies will pay out up to US$2M per year, they have competent agents process your claims,  and they pay out without making you jump through hoops.

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

I assume the problem in overseas insurers signing off on this is the following:- for Alien to apply for Non-Immigrant Visa Type O-A (Period not exceeding 1 Year)
in accordance with the Cabinet Resolution, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019)

 

It would be interesting to see an English language translation of this Resolution. Certainly I can't imagine any foreiegn insurer signing off without this.

Exactly.

 

And there is no official Englush translation.

 

US insurers in particular are very legalistic and would never sign something like this without their legal department having first reviewed it word by word and -- even if prepared to go to all that trouble -- they'd stop cold at that phrase.

 

Most already have standard letters they provide to people who need proof of insurance and will not provide antthing else.

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, suzannegoh said:

You're correct that the Aetna Thailand policies look nothing like the Aetna International policies.  The main differences are that Aetna's International policies will pay out up to US$2M per year, they have competent agents process your claims,  and they pay out without making you jump through hoops.

And there's the reason the Thai policies are referred to as "throw away policies".  Sad.

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, suzannegoh said:

I wouldn't be applying for a new OA but for an extension of stay based upon retirement.

You're correct that the Aetna Thailand policies look nothing like the Aetna International policies.  The main differences are that Aetna's International policies will pay out up to US$2M per year, they have competent agents process your claims,  and they pay out without making you jump through hoops.

For an extension of stay it is quite clear foreign policies are not accepted.

 

Are yoy certain your original visa was an O-A and not an O?

[suzannegoh]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

For an extension of stay it is quite clear foreign policies are not accepted.

 

Are yoy certain your original visa was an O-A and not an O?

It was definitely an OA.

[Tounge Thaied]

1 hour ago, suzannegoh said:

Is there someplace online that I can find that "specified form" that the foreign insurer must fill out? 

Not that I expect Thai bureaucrats to be logical, but I have a worldwide policy written by an American insurer that has limits far above what any Thai policy will pay out and it seems more than a bit bizarre that such a policy would be deemed inadequate.
 

Here is the form. As I read this form, the two "Director" sections only require the names to be printed in, with one "authorized signature" required. I have not needed to pursue this issue, but if and when I need to, I will simply contact my insurance carrier and explain the situation and ask them to complete the form for me. If they won't, then there are plenty of other international insurance carriers that one might need to turn to. 

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

And if this works plan on repeating the process annually with a new OA each time.

What other option might one have regarding visas, e.g. I am on the marriage extension 'O', and just having discussed a possible option with the wife would be to ditch the 'O' if they make it mandatory to have Thai insurance and get a tourist visa, no doubt I would have to exit the country 4 times, i.e. every 2 months, and return via the borders, like Laos, that said, that would sort 8 months of the year, but falls short 4 months.

 

 

Anyone have any other alternative solutions on visas ? 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

What other option might one have regarding visas, e.g. I am on the marriage extension 'O', and just having discussed a possible option with the wife would be to ditch the 'O' if they make it mandatory to have Thai insurance and get a tourist visa, no doubt I would have to exit the country 4 times, i.e. every 2 months, and return via the borders, like Laos, that said, that would sort 8 months of the year, but falls short 4 months.

 

 

Anyone have any other alternative solutions on visas ? 

 

You stand a good chance of being denied entry once you have reached 180 days total in country. They are cracking down on exactly what you describe.

 

As there is currently no insurance requirement for O visa nor for marriahe extensions I thinl you are getting ahead of yourself. Even if / when if comes into being it may mot be designed the same way.

 

But just for contingency planning options could include:

 

Apply for permant residency if you qualify (if so do that now. The process takes time. I would do this in a heartbeat if I qualified).

 

Thai Elite visa

 

Multiple entry TV and spend some months each year  somewhere else

( home country, neighboring country, travel the world...)

 

OA visa annually if your insurer will sign the form or Thai Embassy/Consulate in your country will issue visa based on review of your policy (if your policy is inpt only might have to upgrade it). 

 

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Even if / when if comes into being it may mot be designed the same way.

I agree I am getting ahead of myself, but with 4 kids, I need to plan ahead, and I don't like the rug pulled from under my feet at short notice.

 

The simplest for me, if it is similar to the O/A, the I will go to plan B and return to Australia with the family.

 

The above said, I will do as you suggest, wait and see what they come up with, then act on it.

 

Really makes me wonder what why they won't accept the international policies, protectionism should be out the window, it's called commercialism in this day and age.

[Why Me]

5 hours ago, BestB said:

I have contacted company direct and never received a response or a follow up, 3 times.

Dec. 2018 I thought to switch from Thai Bupa to David Shield. Before contacting a broker I found the DS help number and called at least a few times to get concerns answered. Was put through to their person in charge of Thailand (Natalie?) each time who was very helpful.

 

Then I signed up through AA. Haven't made any claims yet but have generally been impressed with their service. They made some recent administrative changes (PassportCard) about which I started a thread in insurance. But follow up mail from DS has been thorough and I have no worries.

 

Again caveat I have not made claims yet.