Jomtien's New Building Boom (and the Old Ocean 1 site)

[kingofthemountain]

2 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

Right now we have much better air than the people in BKK and parts of the Isaan. And do you write the same comment about Phuket, where was very bad air when they burned in Indonesia, but only in this time, not all year long?

I am sure you are right at the moment

but GeorgeCross has not precised when he would want to visit.

 

I could write the same comment about Phuket with no problem.

I have been in Phuket only one time and i promise it was the last time

i haven't been impressed by the beaches and the traffic is crazy

plus the local population isn't really welcoming with the tourists.

 

Even in Pattaya, where i live. we have had some very bad air days some weeks ago.

I have lived in Chiang rai (In a rural area) during 5 years and the burning season was a hell

 

The air pollution is becoming a real problem in Thailand and unfortunately

the authorities don't seem to be very proactive about it.

 

But we are already off topic

so i don't develop more

[wpcoe]

7 hours ago, CGW said:

Didn't the "developer" build the new Immigration office on Soi 5 as part of the "deal"?

 

49 minutes ago, sharecropper said:

An earlier poster mentioned the construction of the Jomtien Immigration building. I'm certain that was built as part of another 'deal', not related to Ocean 1.

 

Wasn't it the developer that built the View Talay Residences?   (That wasn't K-Tech, was it?)  The design of the Immigrations building looks like it.

[spiekerjozef]

On 12/10/2019 at 4:30 PM, Leaver said:

 

 

You can't sell them beer in a bar, and food in a restaurant, but they do need accommodation. 

You can sell them deodorant...

[couchpotato]

K Tech is/was a construction company only (controlled by a very large framed European). The developers of the View Talay Residences/homes were Bruno, Michael and a few other Ferrari/Roll Royce/Porsche owners, who of course have had their come uppence over the years.

It was time of lots of loose money around.

That cowboy time is over, but still lots of developers with large cash reserves.

Pattaya has, and will continue to have it's phases, especially in the construction area.

Hope this helped a bit..cheers.

Edited December 11, 2019 by couchpotato

[Leaver]

16 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

I am waiting that the government enforces the law that condos have to be rented out for minimum one month. Then so many owners will get a problem.

 

Here in Chiang Mai many hotels and guesthouses have a problem with less guests and on the other side a 600 condo complex is build right now who advertises with "Airbnb-friendly". 

Authorities will eventually have to make a decision.

 

Do they allow it, or enforce it.  Allow it, and hotels go broke.  Enforce it, and owners go broke, and a big slow down in the construction industry, which means a loss of Thai jobs. 

 

Thailand marketed itself to the Chinese and Indians, and Thailand got the Chinese and Indians.  Now, they have to deal with the way this demographic "holiday" abroad. 

[CNXexpat]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Authorities will eventually have to make a decision.

 

Do they allow it, or enforce it.  Allow it, and hotels go broke.  Enforce it, and owners go broke, and a big slow down in the construction industry, which means a loss of Thai jobs. 

 

Thailand marketed itself to the Chinese and Indians, and Thailand got the Chinese and Indians.  Now, they have to deal with the way this demographic "holiday" abroad. 

Instead of condos the constructors will build hotels and guest houses which hire a lot of staff - and pay taxes. 

I guess that most of the Airbnb owners are foreigners and the government is not famous to be interested in foreigners instead of tourists.

[CygnusX1]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

Enforce it, and owners go broke

If prohibition of short term rentals was strictly enforced, it might be OK in Bangkok, where most visitors stay in hotels, but in Pattaya, owners of apartments wouldn’t be the only people to go broke. There’s another topic on this forum about the 1 million Russian high season visitors. Most of those who go to Pattaya will stay for a week or two in apartments in Jomtien/Pratumnak. They prefer an apartment with a kitchen and washing machine to a hotel room, and there simply aren’t enough hotels in those areas anyway.

The tourist industry there would be devastated, difficult problem for the Thai government. In beach towns in Croatia and Montenegro where I spend the northern summer, nearly everyone stays in short term apartments, with none of the problems that there are in Thailand - short term renters and long term renters and owners seem to get along just fine.

[Suradit69]

14 hours ago, sharecropper said:

another real estate casualty.

 

I recall one high flying farang realtor (if that's the correct term) who was involved in the project and a vocal proponent of the project who suddenly and permanently left Thailand as things began to fall apart.

 

i don't recall his name or company, but before he left, he sued someone on a different forum, not TV, for defamation because he was named and unpleasantly characterized. Not sure how successful the suit was.

[SidJames]

5 hours ago, Leaver said:

Authorities will eventually have to make a decision.

 

Do they allow it, or enforce it.  Allow it, and hotels go broke.  Enforce it, and owners go broke, and a big slow down in the construction industry, which means a loss of Thai jobs. 

 

Thailand marketed itself to the Chinese and Indians, and Thailand got the Chinese and Indians.  Now, they have to deal with the way this demographic "holiday" abroad. 

I don't think many Thais are employed on these big construction sites as for the most part it's Khmer & Burmese staff, they don't have the same workers rights as Thais, are easier to dismiss & cheaper.

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, SidJames said:

I don't think many Thais are employed on these big construction sites as for the most part it's Khmer & Burmese staff, they don't have the same workers rights as Thais, are easier to dismiss & cheaper.

I agree, most of the unskilled labor is Burmese and Khmer. 

 

What about all the skilled Thai jobs, including drawing up the plans, and operating heavy machinery? 

 

There's a lot more employment involved in these project than just the laborers. 

[Leaver]

3 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

They prefer an apartment with a kitchen and washing machine to a hotel room,

And why do you think that is?

 

Would it be so they can cook in their own kitchen, to save money, and wash their own clothes?

 

Now picture the Chinese and Indian market doing the same, and that's a lot of struggling hotels, restaurants, and even laundries. 

[Leaver]

5 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

Instead of condos the constructors will build hotels and guest houses which hire a lot of staff - and pay taxes. 

I guess that most of the Airbnb owners are foreigners and the government is not famous to be interested in foreigners instead of tourists.

Have you considered the possibility these large condo projects are being built for the purpose of daily rental? 

[lormakmak]

16 hours ago, couchpotato said:

K Tech is/was a construction company only (controlled by a very large framed European). The developers of the View Talay Residences/homes were Bruno, Michael and a few other Ferrari/Roll Royce/Porsche owners, who of course have had their come uppence over the years.

It was time of lots of loose money around.

That cowboy time is over, but still lots of developers with large cash reserves.

Pattaya has, and will continue to have it's phases, especially in the construction area.

Hope this helped a bit..cheers.

I am intrigued as to how Bruno, Michael and co had their come uppance? not that I know otherwise, just if you know something i'd like to hear about it as google searches etc don't bring up much? Cheers

[CNXexpat]

22 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Have you considered the possibility these large condo projects are being built for the purpose of daily rental? 

Sure I have. But what does this have to do with my comment?

[CygnusX1]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

Would it be so they can cook in their own kitchen, to save money, and wash their own clothes?

 

Now picture the Chinese and Indian market doing the same, and that's a lot of struggling hotels, restaurants, and even laundries. 

That’s true, but they’ll still spend money, most will still eat at restaurants some nights, and budget travellers will just hand wash their clothes anyway if staying at a hotel. Croatia and Montenegro seem to love even those tourists who stay in apartments. Better to have budget tourists than no tourists.

Edited December 12, 2019 by CygnusX1

[Jomtien]

3 hours ago, lormakmak said:

I am intrigued as to how Bruno, Michael and co had their come uppance? not that I know otherwise, just if you know something i'd like to hear about it as google searches etc don't bring up much? Cheers

lol come Uppance had to google it to for translation (a punishment or fate that someone deserves.)

In my eyes bruno et al was there time ahead by 10 years or so, i call that vision. I believe the land was sold in Jan this year (or beyond), and as the land had a claim on it from some investors in the Ocean 1 they probably had to deal with that. I saw some figures about the price of the land, and in my thoughts the land-price was dirt cheap (but i could have been misinformed.) One walk to the lands department and for 20 baht your have the name of the new owner.

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, Leaver said:

Now picture the Chinese and Indian market doing the same, and that's a lot of struggling hotels, restaurants, and even laundries. 

Absolutely they will, cooking their own food and likely putting in a few more bodies than a place was designed for. And a retired Expat who had visions of a quiet retirement has spent 4-5 mil to live between 2 AirBNBs. 

More fodder for the 'rent don't buy' preachers. 

[sharecropper]

Yesterday I went up Thepprasit Road and was amazed to see huge land clearances up there too, in areas which could have been cleared years ago, but again, now seems to be the time, for some weird reason. Even a week ago one was just bush.

 

Also one of the old petrol stations is being diligently prepared for development (although this has been going on for weeks now), and one called Luciano is going up too.

 

The ones next to D-Luck might be more Chinese-oriented "Entertainment" facilities.

 

All this rushed development feels like the Thai real estate's equivalent of the band starting up on the Titanic before it hits an economic iceberg.

 

 

[Ron jeremy]

15 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

That’s true, but they’ll still spend money, most will still eat at restaurants some nights, and budget travellers will just hand wash their clothes anyway if staying at a hotel. Croatia and Montenegro seem to love even those tourists who stay in apartments. Better to have budget tourists than no tourists.

Yes exactly, perhaps they don't spend that much , but they have to eat, drink. Tourists on the ground, mean money. Empty rooms mean zero.

[Leaver]

17 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

Sure I have. But what does this have to do with my comment?

In general, a condo owner doesn't hire staff.  

 

The Chinese, for example, hire one cleaner and key holder, in many cases, for multiple condos in the same block.  That one member of staff performs the duty of check in and check out, and cleaner only after check out, not daily.  That's all they do. 

 

No reception staff, cooks, bar staff etc are employed when an owner rents out their condo on AirBnB. 

 

If this form of accommodation for tourists is allowed to continue, or even encouraged, hotels will struggle, possibly with some going broke, which means a loss of jobs.  

[Leaver]

16 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

most will still eat at restaurants some nights,

As opposed to eating in a restaurant every night of their holiday.  

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Absolutely they will, cooking their own food and likely putting in a few more bodies than a place was designed for. And a retired Expat who had visions of a quiet retirement has spent 4-5 mil to live between 2 AirBNBs. 

More fodder for the 'rent don't buy' preachers. 

It's already happening.  Just look at The Base in Central Pattaya.  I can only imagine the pool there being rammed everyday with more tourists than it was built to cater for. 

 

If one was interested in buying a condo here, without enforcement, I can't see how someone in the market for a new condo build can have confidence that the condo building is not, or will not, be used as a hotel.

[sharecropper]

In my condo there is no Air B&B permitted or visible. If there were I would leave. There are enough inconsiderate, noisy high season f###### XXXXs around on month-to-month tenancies, who are European (Russians are the worst) who don't care about people who live here.

 

Every high season it's the same. Low season is better. But if Air B&B Chinese or Indians arrived in this condo en masse,  I would be out of here.

 

Although maybe that's the fate that ultimately awaits all condos in Thailand, especially if the law changes.

[Max69xl]

22 hours ago, Leaver said:

And why do you think that is?

 

Would it be so they can cook in their own kitchen, to save money, and wash their own clothes?

 

Now picture the Chinese and Indian market doing the same, and that's a lot of struggling hotels, restaurants, and even laundries. 

The Chinese and Indians have more money to spend than Russians. 

[newnative]

5 hours ago, Leaver said:

It's already happening.  Just look at The Base in Central Pattaya.  I can only imagine the pool there being rammed everyday with more tourists than it was built to cater for. 

 

If one was interested in buying a condo here, without enforcement, I can't see how someone in the market for a new condo build can have confidence that the condo building is not, or will not, be used as a hotel.

     Sad about The Base.  It was built as Sansiri's answer to Lumpini Park Beach--offering Bangkokians a small, getaway Pattaya beach condo to come to now and then.  I remember the brochure--full of pictures of young, successful Thais frolicking at the beach--NOW AND THEN.  Meaning, most, with their busy Bangkok lives, were not expected to come often, maybe a few times a year like Park Beach.  (When I lived at Park Beach the neighbors on either side of me came maybe twice a year, usually on a long holiday weekend.)  That's why the 2 pools are small, as is the gym.  I think when it opened the pools at The Base had less than a dozen deck chairs each--for 1100 units. 

       But, I digress and back to your post.  You really can't have confidence it won't happen--and despite what the builder might tell you.  Any new, large project with lots of units in the 30 to 35 sqm range is likely going to be full of illegal daily renters from Day 1 or soon after.  

     Some projects are trying. I've mentioned before that the Bangkok complex I owned at came up with requiring picture IDs to use the pool and the gym--the 2 main amenities.  It's a fairly complicated procedure to obtain the photo ID and someone staying only a few days likely won't bother.  The illegal daily renters will still be in the elevators and the lobby but at least it's a start--if it's managed well.

    However, I could see the photo ID thing--and other efforts--being abandoned at some point if the owners in favor of the illegal renters get the upper hand at a condo.  So, even if a project has strict rules, I will likely never buy a condo at a project with over 500 units again--or one with a majority of the units in a convenient 30 to 35 sqm hotel size.  I'll look for an older project with fewer and larger units.  Yes, some illegal daily renters might still sneak in but an older 200 unit project is likely to have far fewer of them than a new or newer project with 1000 units or more.

[Leaver]

16 hours ago, newnative said:

     Sad about The Base.  It was built as Sansiri's answer to Lumpini Park Beach--offering Bangkokians a small, getaway Pattaya beach condo to come to now and then.  I remember the brochure--full of pictures of young, successful Thais frolicking at the beach--NOW AND THEN.  Meaning, most, with their busy Bangkok lives, were not expected to come often, maybe a few times a year like Park Beach.  (When I lived at Park Beach the neighbors on either side of me came maybe twice a year, usually on a long holiday weekend.)  That's why the 2 pools are small, as is the gym.  I think when it opened the pools at The Base had less than a dozen deck chairs each--for 1100 units. 

       But, I digress and back to your post.  You really can't have confidence it won't happen--and despite what the builder might tell you.  Any new, large project with lots of units in the 30 to 35 sqm range is likely going to be full of illegal daily renters from Day 1 or soon after.  

     Some projects are trying. I've mentioned before that the Bangkok complex I owned at came up with requiring picture IDs to use the pool and the gym--the 2 main amenities.  It's a fairly complicated procedure to obtain the photo ID and someone staying only a few days likely won't bother.  The illegal daily renters will still be in the elevators and the lobby but at least it's a start--if it's managed well.

    However, I could see the photo ID thing--and other efforts--being abandoned at some point if the owners in favor of the illegal renters get the upper hand at a condo.  So, even if a project has strict rules, I will likely never buy a condo at a project with over 500 units again--or one with a majority of the units in a convenient 30 to 35 sqm hotel size.  I'll look for an older project with fewer and larger units.  Yes, some illegal daily renters might still sneak in but an older 200 unit project is likely to have far fewer of them than a new or newer project with 1000 units or more.

I would be interested in knowing how many condo's at The Base were actually sold.  I see on the internet there are still quite a few for sale.

 

I'm wondering if not that many sold, the Sansiri group's only answer to rescue the project from a big loss was to meet with authorities and arrange for the non enforcement of daily rental.

 

Then, when people saw daily rental was not being enforced, more sold, or just about all of the condo's were leased out on long contracts, and subleased as daily rentals. 

 

Non enforcement of daily rental could draw some Chinese buyers into the market, but they run the risk that enforcement could happen at any time. 

 

I see how many Chinese are outside of The Base with their suitcases.  Every one of them is a lost customer for a hotel here. 

 

Like I said, it's a tricky one for the Thai authorities.  Enforce illegal daily rental, and the property market is effected.  Do not enforce daily rental, and the hotels are effected, as are restaurants.

[Leaver]

23 hours ago, sharecropper said:

Although maybe that's the fate that ultimately awaits all condos in Thailand

The old established condo blocks, where foreigners have bought in years ago, should be safe for some time to come, but they are aging, and not so nice anymore.

 

The new condo projects I think may be being built for the purpose of daily rental, and in my opinion, one should be very careful if considering buying a new condo here now. 

[Guderian]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:39 AM, sharecropper said:

Yesterday I went up Thepprasit Road and was amazed to see huge land clearances up there too, in areas which could have been cleared years ago, but again, now seems to be the time, for some weird reason. Even a week ago one was just bush.

 

Also one of the old petrol stations is being diligently prepared for development (although this has been going on for weeks now), and one called Luciano is going up too.

 

The ones next to D-Luck might be more Chinese-oriented "Entertainment" facilities.

 

All this rushed development feels like the Thai real estate's equivalent of the band starting up on the Titanic before it hits an economic iceberg.

 

 

I'd noticed the large plot of land next to the Kaan show being cleared and was wondering what would go on it.

It might be more Chinese entertainment, but if so it's probably nothing to do with Singha and Kaan, as they're currently trying to sell the large plot of leftover land running from the theatre up to Soi 8. Plus you've already got the more down-market Imagine 79 Chinese theatre on Soi 8 (which seems to be a lot busier than the main show these days).

With Supalai Mare nearby and the Luciano supposedly going up a bit further down Thepprasit I'd wonder if it's going to be a condo, but OTOH down in the Boondocks behind Jomtien Second Road they're building new condos next door to each other as fast as they can, so I guess it might well be another 50-storey tower block.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

I would be interested in knowing how many condo's at The Base were actually sold.  I see on the internet there are still quite a few for sale.

 

I'm wondering if not that many sold, the Sansiri group's only answer to rescue the project from a big loss was to meet with authorities and arrange for the non enforcement of daily rental.

 

Then, when people saw daily rental was not being enforced, more sold, or just about all of the condo's were leased out on long contracts, and subleased as daily rentals. 

 

Non enforcement of daily rental could draw some Chinese buyers into the market, but they run the risk that enforcement could happen at any time. 

 

I see how many Chinese are outside of The Base with their suitcases.  Every one of them is a lost customer for a hotel here. 

 

Like I said, it's a tricky one for the Thai authorities.  Enforce illegal daily rental, and the property market is effected.  Do not enforce daily rental, and the hotels are effected, as are restaurants.

     Hipflat shows 102 units for sale, some are duplicates from  different agencies listing the same unit, likely all resales.  Pre-construction, The Base was supposedly fully 'booked'--which does not mean 'sold', which happens when the Chanote is transferred to the buyer.  When you see SOLD OUT blasted on a billboard at a new project, it likely isn't.   When The Base actually opened and the bookers had to either actually come up with the actual money to buy their condo or sell the booking, around 300 units were turned back in to Sansiri to sell, which I think most eventually were.  it could be some buyers bought multiple units then for illegal daily rent use.

    We were one of the first buyers to close on an investment rental--and probably one of the first to try out the pools and the gym--which we noted were both small for the number of units--and where I counted the very small number of pool chairs at each pool.  

     We easily immediately found a good, long-term corporate rental with a Japanese tenant and things started fine at first but then the illegal daily renting began and we didn't like the way things were heading.  About a year after we bought, we sold at a very nice profit, mirroring what you said in your post about owners not liking the illegal daily renters and selling their units.  I'm sure there were many others like us who did the same, or leased their units to someone putting multiple units together to run an illegal boutique hotel within the complex.

    

    

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

The old established condo blocks, where foreigners have bought in years ago, should be safe for some time to come, but they are aging, and not so nice anymore.

 

The new condo projects I think may be being built for the purpose of daily rental, and in my opinion, one should be very careful if considering buying a new condo here now. 

    As with most things, it depends.  I know a number of older condo projects in Pattaya that are being maintained very well and are still nice places to live.