Cultural Reason Or No Reason?

[November Rain]

Today, on my way in to the dog center, I saw two things that made my blood run cold. Firstly, I passed a construction site where workers were busy building. Two of their children, perhaps 4 years old were playing a little way away, on a blind corner of a fairly busy road. No supervision, no-one even glancing at them. A little further on, on a far busier road, I saw a little boy of perhaps 3 riding his bike in the middle of the road. Again, no adult even looking at him.

Yesterday it was a guy on a motorbike nearly crashing as he was wobbling all over the place trying to drive one-handed across a level crossing. The reason for only one hand? He was taking a drag from his cigarette! We've all seen the Thai idea of electric safety - poke it with a screwdriver to see if it's live!

Why do people live with danger & make little effort to safeguard their own or their families' safety in LoS? My own theory is that many Thais are not used to thinking about cause & effect (If I do this, this will happen), but I'd be interested to hear if there is a cultural reason that I don't know about, or anyone's take on this

[GuestHouse]

Two reasons:

1) Lack of education on safety issues

2) Human nature

Remember it wasn't until relatively recently that motor cyclist in the west were required to wear helmets, drivers wear seat belts, children use car seats etc.

And any day of the week I can spot western drivers hurtling down the road while on the mobile phone, driving above the speed limit, driving too close to the car in front.

There is however one cultural issue I observed.

Towards the end a large construction project in Thailand I was discussing the excellent safety record (and it was first class) with one of the Thai project managers (educated overseas, very bright and with many years of experience in the industry).

I commented that the safety training had paid off.

He replied, no, it was the project Karma, if there was meant to be accidents there would have been accidents.

Perhaps what he meant was, it was his Karma to collect his safety bonus.

[Maigo6]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

[PeaceBlondie]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing. We've been talking on other topics about this problem: the bus crash where 29 people died in the fire; the village where the police allows a 10-year old to drive a car; driving habits, etc.

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

I passed a family last night on a dangerous road. Dad was driving, Mom was on the pillion, and she held the infant up high. One quick swerve or braking would have sent that baby flying to its death.

[Maigo6]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing.

How about a spot of Farang bashing ?

[Mid]

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

ALL of the above ................................

[GuestHouse]

Since my own response highlights the general point that this lack of safety is not just a Thai thing I feel I can go on to challenge the idea that we are necessarily 'Thai bashing'.

For example.

Instilling safe conduct, particularly with respect to road use, among our Thai families is a huge issue and requires understanding of the background of why Thais disregard safety.

I feel there is an issue relating to obstenancy in accepting best practice from the west. The Thai government for example could draw on the huge reserve of international experience on a whole range of safety issues, but is seemingly content to reinvent the wheel.

Likewise I know of a number of foreigners who have had huge problems getting their family to accept safer practice.

The issue here is SAFETY.

To attack and subjegate the discussion on the basis of 'Thai Bashing' does a huge diservice to those members who would like to take part in promoting safety in their Thai families and indeed in Thailand.

[think_too_mut]

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

That levels them up with Russia. Still, not that bad.

[crowbait]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing. We've been talking on other topics about this problem: the bus crash where 29 people died in the fire; the village where the police allows a 10-year old to drive a car; driving habits, etc.

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

I passed a family last night on a dangerous road. Dad was driving, Mom was on the pillion, and she held the infant up high. One quick swerve or braking would have sent that baby flying to its death.

you know, when I was a kid, (a fair few years ago) in the uk, I learned to ride a horse, bare-backed and standing up, at a gallop - out shooting with a shotgun before I was 12, jumped onto water (and rubbish) filled quarries for a dare, learned to swim in deep fast running rivers, built go-carts, bombs, canons etc. and generally had fun.

In todays Health-and-Safety led culture where risk-taking is frowned upon and where, following any sort of incident, our usual response is to find someone to blame, I find myself looking back and cringing at the risks I took and survived (just). On the other hand, I had a richness of experience that my children were unable to have because of the necessity to wrap them up in cotton wool.

I have no answers, only two questions..........................is it better to be safe than curious? when everyone has grown up in the no-risk culture, who will be prepared to risk their lives on our behalf?

Just my two pennyworth.

[November Rain]

Since my own response highlights the general point that this lack of safety is not just a Thai thing I feel I can go on to challenge the idea that we are necessarily 'Thai bashing'.

For example.

Instilling safe conduct, particularly with respect to road use, among our Thai families is a huge issue and requires understanding of the background of why Thais disregard safety.

I feel there is an issue relating to obstenancy in accepting best practice from the west. The Thai government for example could draw on the huge reserve of international experience on a whole range of safety issues, but is seemingly content to reinvent the wheel.

Likewise I know of a number of foreigners who have had huge problems getting their family to accept safer practice.

The issue here is SAFETY.

To attack and subjegate the discussion on the basis of 'Thai Bashing' does a huge diservice to those members who would like to take part in promoting safety in their Thai families and indeed in Thailand.

Absolutely, GH. I am not Thai bashing & that was not the purpose of this thread. My son is 100% Thai, as was my BF, his father. To Thai bash, would be to bash them. The point of this thread was for me to understand why something that seems so dangerous to me, does not to others. Is it education, culture, religion? Which difference, or combination of differences is it?

[canuckamuck]

If this sounds to general, probably it is, but the OP is sort of asking for a general answer.

I really think it goes back to the education system. Is it ok to bash that? What I have witnessed from the Thai students I know is, assignments and lessons are not about learning, rather than getting the right answer through whatever means. This is usually accomplished through copying of each others answers, and having older siblings complete their assignments. Allowing this is a crime of the educators, which keeps the country dependent on foreign trained management.

The result is what westerners describe as a lack of extended reasoning or linear thinking, resulting in the Thai bubble I have heard described here. Whatever is in the bubble is important, out side the bubble doesn’t matter. It how the driving works, and recently we discovered it’s how budgeting and long term planning works too. We learned the hard way trust me.

In the west it’s A + B = C and eventually = D. In Thailand it’s A + B = why do you want B? A is what everybody else does.

[toptuan]

I really think it goes back to the education system. Is it ok to bash that? What I have witnessed from the Thai students I know is, assignments and lessons are not about learning, rather than getting the right answer through whatever means. This is usually accomplished through copying of each others answers, and having older siblings complete their assignments. Allowing this is a crime of the educators, which keeps the country dependent on foreign trained management.

I've just spent five full days answering, in detail, emails from aghast university students who received D's and F's in my classes. To a person, each of them played around all semester, failed to attend class, failed to do assignments, failed to study for tests--and then failed to realize that it would have consequences at the end of term. They are in shock.

The Thai teachers will compensate for similar students by tutoring them extra hours (after the semester is over), giving them busy work to make up for lack of attendance, or outright changing the grade under pressure from the student's parents. I do get chided by the administration for not "making allowances" for the outright laziness of some of the students.

Being as hard-nosed as I am, I don't know how long I'll last in the educational system here. I'm simply trying to apply international academic standards to my instruction here, and it's seriously rocking the boat. Anybody got a bar in Pattaya I can buy?

[canuckamuck]

I really think it goes back to the education system. Is it ok to bash that? What I have witnessed from the Thai students I know is, assignments and lessons are not about learning, rather than getting the right answer through whatever means. This is usually accomplished through copying of each others answers, and having older siblings complete their assignments. Allowing this is a crime of the educators, which keeps the country dependent on foreign trained management.

I've just spent five full days answering, in detail, emails from aghast university students who received D's and F's in my classes. To a person, each of them played around all semester, failed to attend class, failed to do assignments, failed to study for tests--and then failed to realize that it would have consequences at the end of term. They are in shock.

The Thai teachers will compensate for similar students by tutoring them extra hours (after the semester is over), giving them busy work to make up for lack of attendance, or outright changing the grade under pressure from the student's parents. I do get chided by the administration for not "making allowances" for the outright laziness of some of the students.

Being as hard-nosed as I am, I don't know how long I'll last in the educational system here. I'm simply trying to apply international academic standards to my instruction here, and it's seriously rocking the boat. Anybody got a bar in Pattaya I can buy?

Good on ya bud, don't let em take you alive.

[OlRedEyes]

A propensity for gambling I think. I really don't think any adult doesn't understand cause and effect. They'd have learned that from growing up, whether they were taught it or not.

An attitude of take the chance. Mostly nothing will happen.

We all have it, I think. Some of us were just taught to try and improve our chances with attempts at foresight and planning.

[undercover]

Human nature is strange, you get some guy will never ever ride a motorbike without a helmet but then he <deleted>-ks unknown girls in shortime bars without a rubber.

Then you have the guy that <deleted>-ks everywhere without a rubber but would never go outside in a thunderstorm incase he gets struck by lightning !

[gummy]

Human nature is strange, you get some guy will never ever ride a motorbike without a helmet but then he <deleted>-ks unknown girls in shortime bars without a rubber.

Then you have the guy that <deleted>-ks everywhere without a rubber but would never go outside in a thunderstorm incase he gets struck by lightning !

And then you have the guy, who never uses a condom, but always wears his crash helmet whilst having sex with an unknown girl on his motorbike during a thunderstorm. But I don't know if that is a cultural thing or he never thought of the dangers

[robert2]

Two years ago the cops started a crackdown on motorcyclists without helmets as there were around 38 fatalities every day.

In Bangkok most riders now wear helmets (although crappy ones). I just went to Chiang Mai and not many wore helmets. Dunno why the situation in CM is different than Bkk.

Personally I'll always want to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. I have been in too many accidents and wouldn't be alive if it weren't for wearing a good helmet.

Safety as a personal choice is fine with me, but endangering your kids should not happen, Thai or not.

I guess if you believe in karma and reincarnation you don't need safety regulations...

[PeaceBlondie]

There's more to 'analytical thinking' than just realizing that A causes B. It's realizing that the coordination of the throttle, clutch, handlebars, both brakes, and body language on the chassis keep you going on the right course, while you look all ways, don't get distracted, and as soon as you get to a wet patch on the road, don't lean over too much. It's postponing gratification and working hard for a reward that the system will probably give you.

But the cultural system doesn't always reward good effort. The bright student is expected to share the right answers with lazy students. If your family is highly placed, you can escape the normal results of bad judgment or laziness. Some poor folks work hard and still don't get out of debt. So they think that A doesn't even cause B, and there's no sense in factoring in the side effects of E and G, allowing for sidewinds, and noticing that Somchasa is driving straight toward them while talking on her mobile.

[popshirt]

Why did I continue smoking cigarettes long after we knew that lung disease, cancer and possibly early death was the result?

Probably because I am farang.

[mutleyg]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

Spot on Maigo6!!

This thread needs no more than these words. People are people and this is what makes us all so different. If Thais did not have the attitudes and beliefs they do which in turn leads them to act the way that has been observed would so many of us still love the country. Maybe that's another thread.

[phibunmike]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing. We've been talking on other topics about this problem: the bus crash where 29 people died in the fire; the village where the police allows a 10-year old to drive a car; driving habits, etc.

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

I passed a family last night on a dangerous road. Dad was driving, Mom was on the pillion, and she held the infant up high. One quick swerve or braking would have sent that baby flying to its death.

I have been forming a Grand Unified Theory about this and other matters of a similar ilk. Originating in the subsistence farming / daily survival culture, most priority is given to now - to consider what might happen tomorrow is a luxury many cannot afford. Continuing this line of thought, tools are left out in the rain, budgeting for the future does not happen, litter is dropped, plastic is burnt, new pickups are bought on credit, safety is not considered - because priority is given to today, to now, to this very moment; only when society as a majority is able to climb to the level where a hardship can be voluntarily experienced today to pay for something better in the future, will this forward planning become a part of the national psyche.

Well, this is my humble opinion, and certainly not intended as Thai-bashing; quite the opposite in fact. Do you agree? Or am I wrong? Let me know your ideas....

[phibunmike]

...postponing gratification...

Yes, PeaceBlondie, that sums it up succinctly - I missed that in your post before. The problem is that, if a family is poor, the gratification that we ask them to postpone might be buying rice for today - and that is asking too much. Extend that thought process through repeated experience and we get what I was talking about in my previous post.

Cheers,

Mike

[robert2]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing. We've been talking on other topics about this problem: the bus crash where 29 people died in the fire; the village where the police allows a 10-year old to drive a car; driving habits, etc.

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

I passed a family last night on a dangerous road. Dad was driving, Mom was on the pillion, and she held the infant up high. One quick swerve or braking would have sent that baby flying to its death.

I have been forming a Grand Unified Theory about this and other matters of a similar ilk. Originating in the subsistence farming / daily survival culture, most priority is given to now - to consider what might happen tomorrow is a luxury many cannot afford. Continuing this line of thought, tools are left out in the rain, budgeting for the future does not happen, litter is dropped, plastic is burnt, new pickups are bought on credit, safety is not considered - because priority is given to today, to now, to this very moment; only when society as a majority is able to climb to the level where a hardship can be voluntarily experienced today to pay for something better in the future, will this forward planning become a part of the national psyche.

Well, this is my humble opinion, and certainly not intended as Thai-bashing; quite the opposite in fact. Do you agree? Or am I wrong? Let me know your ideas....

You may be onto something.

A friend who lived in Thailand for 35 years (Fluent in the language, reading/writing etc.) told me that he'll never fully be able to understand the Thai way of thinking.

Safety, maintainance and saving for tomorrow might be some of those things that won't be prioritised by many Thais.

To explain this mindset might be difficult, let alone changing it.

Perhaps when something goes wrong you rely on your family to help out ?

Just a thought...

[OlRedEyes]

Human nature is strange, you get some guy will never ever ride a motorbike without a helmet but then he <deleted>-ks unknown girls in shortime bars without a rubber.

Then you have the guy that <deleted>-ks everywhere without a rubber but would never go outside in a thunderstorm incase he gets struck by lightning !

And then you have the guy, who never uses a condom, but always wears his crash helmet whilst having sex with an unknown girl on his motorbike during a thunderstorm. But I don't know if that is a cultural thing or he never thought of the dangers

Sounds like fun.

[andook]

Great topic, November Rain. Now let's see that we don't do too much Thai-bashing. We've been talking on other topics about this problem: the bus crash where 29 people died in the fire; the village where the police allows a 10-year old to drive a car; driving habits, etc.

Is there some cultural tradition like mai bpen rai that affects this? Is there a fatalism in Thai Buddhist-animism that keep them from protecting themselves from hazards? Is it a fault in the education system, or in the police system?

I passed a family last night on a dangerous road. Dad was driving, Mom was on the pillion, and she held the infant up high. One quick swerve or braking would have sent that baby flying to its death.

I have been forming a Grand Unified Theory about this and other matters of a similar ilk. Originating in the subsistence farming / daily survival culture, most priority is given to now - to consider what might happen tomorrow is a luxury many cannot afford. Continuing this line of thought, tools are left out in the rain, budgeting for the future does not happen, litter is dropped, plastic is burnt, new pickups are bought on credit, safety is not considered - because priority is given to today, to now, to this very moment; only when society as a majority is able to climb to the level where a hardship can be voluntarily experienced today to pay for something better in the future, will this forward planning become a part of the national psyche.

Well, this is my humble opinion, and certainly not intended as Thai-bashing; quite the opposite in fact. Do you agree? Or am I wrong? Let me know your ideas....

Agreed. The weather, fertility of the soil, and abundance of foods here have negated the need for planning ahead. Its only when industrialisation; foreign trade, and increasing urbanisation becomes the new culture, that this deficiency is a real problem.

[a2396]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

Comparing safety standards and norms in Thailand to those of Europe or USA has little similarity. Thailand has a definite "third world" mentality regarding safety issues. You can't be serious that peoples' behavior is the same in all countries. In my country, I don't see to many riding motorcycles the wrong direction on a roadway or dousing them (motorcycles) with water on high traffic, high speed roadways, during some holiday celebration time.

[gummy]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

Comparing safety standards and norms in Thailand to those of Europe or USA has little similarity. Thailand has a definite "third world" mentality regarding safety issues. You can't be serious that peoples' behavior is the same in all countries. In my country, I don't see to many riding motorcycles the wrong direction on a roadway or dousing them (motorcycles) with water on high traffic, high speed roadways, during some holiday celebration time.

No you don't see this in the UK either it but might be a good idea at say Easter weekend to put some fun back into the country. Seriously need some outlet for Football and Cricket fans to vent their frustrations - only an idea mind you

[Maigo6]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

Comparing safety standards and norms in Thailand to those of Europe or USA has little similarity. Thailand has a definite "third world" mentality regarding safety issues. You can't be serious that peoples' behavior is the same in all countries. In my country, I don't see to many riding motorcycles the wrong direction on a roadway or dousing them (motorcycles) with water on high traffic, high speed roadways, during some holiday celebration time.

No you don't see this in the UK either it but might be a good idea at say Easter weekend to put some fun back into the country. Seriously need some outlet for Football and Cricket fans to vent their frustrations - only an idea mind you

Gummy can you really imagine a Songkhran type of festival in UK ?

The place would be a bloodbath, UK people are just to miserable and the rest just wanna have a punch up at any opportunity.

[November Rain]

Why do thousands of people talk on mobile phones whilst driving in the UK, where they are Fined and have 3 penalty points added to their license, is this a cultural thing, or are they just plain dumb?

People are people, in all countries.

Comparing safety standards and norms in Thailand to those of Europe or USA has little similarity. Thailand has a definite "third world" mentality regarding safety issues. You can't be serious that peoples' behavior is the same in all countries. In my country, I don't see to many riding motorcycles the wrong direction on a roadway or dousing them (motorcycles) with water on high traffic, high speed roadways, during some holiday celebration time.

No you don't see this in the UK either it but might be a good idea at say Easter weekend to put some fun back into the country. Seriously need some outlet for Football and Cricket fans to vent their frustrations - only an idea mind you

Gummy can you really imagine a Songkhran type of festival in UK ?

The place would be a bloodbath, UK people are just to miserable and the rest just wanna have a punch up at any opportunity.

And which category, pray tell, would I fall into, being British? The miserable or the punch up? For someone who comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone who shows the slightest sign of criticising a Thai for anything, you're pretty good at throwing the slurs at other nationalities.

[terry57]

i seen a farang lady push her baby ( in pram ) on to a cross walk in bangkok because she obviously thought that the same rules applied here as they do in farang land.

i screamed at her while the husband stood there in shock.

anyway a tuk tuk missed the pram by millimetres and i think i saved the kids life.

things are different in los, its just the way it is and will always be like this.

most farang cant get a handle on it and i think that its best not to think about it to much as it could affect ones sanity.

its a crazy old place but thats what keeps it interesting.

and a big hello to you miss rain.

thank you very much.