Can people steal my chanot land?

[Nepal4me]

My wife owns 5 rai of land on Samui and just received a letter, 2 letters actually from the land office.  The first letter states that the owner of the adjoining land wants to measure his NS3 land and upgrade it to chanot.  He/land office want us to point exactly where our chanot land is. My wife and I now live in Canada and even if we flew back to Thailand, the land is in the country side and is very overgrown and even if we were there we would be unable to identify exactly where our land is as it would be very difficult to find the chanot markers.  We can send a representative but he or she also wouldn't be able to point to our land.  The letter states that if we do not dispute or agree or disagree, the land office will automatically agree with my neighbour's measurement....whether it agrees with our Chanot paper or not.  The land office says they will do the measurement on Jan 10th and I have 30 days to dispute, so I don't have much time.

 

I had purchased this 5 rai NS3 land in 2004 and transferred it to my wife, who is Thai in 2013.  We at that time also upgraded the land to Chanot.

 

Further info:  This 5 rai was part of a large tract of land owned by one family for several decades at least.  The land was parceled of to the kids and I bought the 5 rai from one of the sons.  All the neighbouring land is owned by other brothers and sisters.

 

The second letter is just a document that allows us to send a representative.

 

So far I can't locate the lawyer that upgraded the land for us.  Oddly I can't find her in my email history.  I have reached out to an acquaintance in Samui that knows the lawyer but as yet have not heard back from him.  

 

I wonder if anybody has any words of wisdom that might be able to help our situation?  

 

Land office letter attached. 

[Bruce Aussie Chiang Mai]

If land got enough value go back get surveyors to mark your land  and then register details to land office.

Treat it as holiday or you will lose I think.

[CharlieH]

I would think that your area may get "shaved" if they cannot locate the stamped peg markers. But as for "losing the area" (the bulk) I doubt that very much as its registered Chanote land.

My suggestion is either you or a rep, attend on the day and let the Land Office guide the procedure, they will have a clear indication as to the approximate location based on what was filed.

This is based on my personal experience when I bought my area.

[Tounge Thaied]

When I bought my land, we had it surveyed, as no markers existed. The neighbors were invited to be present to assist the surveyor's and manage any disputes. It is standard practice. I would say if you already have markers, which your opening comment seems to indicate, the land office will be able to find those even if it is overgrown. I am not a lawyer, but I highly doubt that they will be able to "steal" your chanot land. I think your worst case scenario here is you could lose a very small portion of land. But I don't even see that happening if your land was marked when you bought it. If your land was not surveyed and marked (and duly registered) you would be at the mercy of the neighbor. If it were me, I would have your wife find a competent person, to go with a copy of the land title to be present for you. Because if no one is there, the neighbor might get greedy. 

[sirineou]

even though we own chanote property in Thailand , I never had the occasion to look into it.  But I own property in other countries and I know how land is surveyed.

Your Chanote (red stamp) title should have a sketch of the property, with the location of the property marker. 

One of the markers should be located a certain distance and angle  from another surveying point.

I am not in Thailand right now to look at mine.

Finding your markers should be a simple exercise for the surveyor.  As suggested have a trusted representative there at the time of the survey to make sure everything is done right.

I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office.

Someone correct me if I am wrong   

[swissie]

29 minutes ago, sirineou said:

even though we own chanote property in Thailand , I never had the occasion to look into it.  But I own property in other countries and I know how land is surveyed.

Your Chanote (red stamp) title should have a sketch of the property, with the location of the property marker. 

One of the markers should be located a certain distance and angle  from another surveying point.

I am not in Thailand right now to look at mine.

Finding your markers should be a simple exercise for the surveyor.  As suggested have a trusted representative there at the time of the survey to make sure everything is done right.

I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office.

Someone correct me if I am wrong   

"I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office."

 

If that's not enough, then I don't know what is!

[impulse]

I'd consider the fact that they even contacted you to be a good sign...

 

I'd worry more about a forged transfer which doesn't seem to be the case, because they contacted you.

 

[Nepal4me]

3 minutes ago, impulse said:

I'd consider the fact that they even contacted you to be a good sign...

 

I'd worry more about a forged transfer which doesn't seem to be the case, because they contacted you.

 

Well, they didn't contact me.  The land office did.

[Nepal4me]

24 minutes ago, swissie said:

"I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office."

 

If that's not enough, then I don't know what is!

That is what I told my wife.  We have the chanot paper so it has been surveyed and marked already altho nasty neighbours could have removed the chanot markers...

 

My wife says, it is still common in Thailand for people to squat on the land, even chanot and after some years, the squatters can make claim to the land and you are screwed.  Can anybody confirm that this actually can happen?

[jackdd]

14 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

My wife says, it is still common in Thailand for people to squat on the land, even chanot and after some years, the squatters can make claim to the land and you are screwed.  Can anybody confirm that this actually can happen?

Afaik if somebody has used / inhabited land (without a rental contract or similar) in Thailand for at least 10 years he automatically aquires the right to continue doing this. He doesn't become the owner, but the owner has no legal means to remove this person from this land.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

That is what I told my wife.  We have the chanot paper so it has been surveyed and marked already altho nasty neighbours could have removed the chanot markers...

 

My wife says, it is still common in Thailand for people to squat on the land, even chanot and after some years, the squatters can make claim to the land and you are screwed.  Can anybody confirm that this actually can happen?

First, 

chanot markers cannot be successfully moved because they don't exist independently. They are also located a particular distance from another fixed point, this point is located in a Lot, that is located in a grid, to a township  and so on and so forth.

I don't know exactly how it is done in Thailand,  But I know how it is done elsewhere and I am sure they must use a similar method in Thailand. 

   As far as squatting in Thailand are concerned,. I think if someone has being living and cultivating a privately owned land without contest, After 10 years they have the right to sue for ownership. I think it is under the property abandonment concept.    I know in the US (depending on state law) and probably in Canada the same applies.

"Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/holding-possession-and-possessory-rights-to-property

 

[swissie]

17 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

That is what I told my wife.  We have the chanot paper so it has been surveyed and marked already altho nasty neighbours could have removed the chanot markers...

 

My wife says, it is still common in Thailand for people to squat on the land, even chanot and after some years, the squatters can make claim to the land and you are screwed.  Can anybody confirm that this actually can happen?

The squatters can squat for the next 200 years, it will not nullify your proper Chanote Papers.
If squatters could "neutralise" even Chanote Papers, every piece of land that exists in Thailand would be up for Legal-Questioning!
Even with no Land-Markers physically present, surveyors can establish your Land-Boundaries by using the Land-Markers of your neighbors.

[swissie]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Afaik if somebody has used / inhabited land (without a rental contract or similar) in Thailand for at least 10 years he automatically aquires the right to continue doing this. He doesn't become the owner, but the owner has no legal means to remove this person from this land.

NOT FOR "CHANOTE" LAND PROPERLY REGISTERED AT THE LAND OFFICE.

[Nepal4me]

34 minutes ago, sirineou said:

First, 

chanot markers cannot be successfully moved because they don't exist independently. They are also located a particular distance from another fixed point, this point is located in a Lot, that is located in a grid, to a township  and so on and so forth.

I mean they could dig up the chanot markers and throw them away.  After one year of wet season, you could never find that spot.  All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers.

34 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't know exactly how it is done in Thailand,  But I know how it is done elsewhere and I am sure they must use a similar method in Thailand. 

   As far as squatting in Thailand are concerned,. I think if someone has being living and cultivating a privately owned land without contest, After 10 years they have the right to sue for ownership. I think it is under the property abandonment concept.    I know in the US (depending on state law) and probably in Canada the same applies.

"Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/holding-possession-and-possessory-rights-to-property

 

I read thru that.  It does not state type of land i.e. chanot, NS3, TP5 etc etc.

[swissie]

20 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

I mean they could dig up the chanot markers and throw them away.  After one year of wet season, you could never find that spot.  All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers.

I read thru that.  It does not state type of land i.e. chanot, NS3, TP5 etc etc.

Post 12 & 13 are still valid. Period.
Only thing disturbing is the fact that none of your neighbors qualify for Chanote-Papers. How did you manage to upgrade your property to "Chanote" and your neighbors were (appearantly) not able do do the same?       Quote: "All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers". ???

There might be the "root of the problem".

[swissie]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

First, 

chanot markers cannot be successfully moved because they don't exist independently. They are also located a particular distance from another fixed point, this point is located in a Lot, that is located in a grid, to a township  and so on and so forth.

I don't know exactly how it is done in Thailand,  But I know how it is done elsewhere and I am sure they must use a similar method in Thailand. 

   As far as squatting in Thailand are concerned,. I think if someone has being living and cultivating a privately owned land without contest, After 10 years they have the right to sue for ownership. I think it is under the property abandonment concept.    I know in the US (depending on state law) and probably in Canada the same applies.

"Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/holding-possession-and-possessory-rights-to-property

 

In other words: If I can prove that I slept on the steps of "Mike Shopping Mall" in Pattaya for the last 10 years I can not be denied "domicile"?

Laws in Thailand are strange (understatement), but not that strange!

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Nepal4me said:

I mean they could dig up the chanot markers and throw them away.  After one year of wet season, you could never find that spot.  All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers.

I don't know how they do it in Thailand, but I know how it is done in most countries in the world.

The property markers are not the only  indication of where your land is. They are only a physical representation.

It is called the metes and bounds method and as far as I know it is also used in thailand  the picture below   describes the Metes and bound system (it is for florida but applies to thailand also) There is a Primary starting point (POB) which is one corner of the property, From the POB you can determine the location of all other markers. So the POB will have to be removed.

the POB is the corner of the property where the line is attached

But that line is also attached to a fixed point on a grid (intersections of grid lines) So even if the POB was removed it can be re established by using the information on the legal description.  You see the writing on the line? it has direction and length.

So your property is located a certain distance and direction from a particular grid intersection, establishing a POB from the POB you can locate all other markers.

 

I would not worry about the squatters law too much unless you have people living on your property for over 10 years. I just wanted you to know that it is possible,However improbable.

If you are interested in to the legalese read below link. but it will probably confuse you because it contains a lot of other information

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=_aaurGlchl4C&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=is+the+metes+and+bounds+method+used+in+Thailand&source=bl&ots=LDy-1C2yph&sig=ACfU3U2WIU34ZnHM6d_y9dhEjfvI5im2pg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjozqGO9snmAhVFQ80KHdWjB_UQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=is the metes and bounds method used in Thailand&f=false

 

 

 

[Nepal4me]

49 minutes ago, swissie said:

Post 12 & 13 are still valid. Period.
Only thing disturbing is the fact that none of your neighbors qualify for Chanote-Papers. How did you manage to upgrade your property to "Chanote" and your neighbors were (appearantly) not able do do the same?       Quote: "All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers". ???

There might be the "root of the problem".

My neighbours are able to upgrade just as I did.  Just go to the land office, pay for the service.  They go out and put up the chanot markers.  I think that is what my neighbour is doing.

[swissie]

44 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

My neighbours are able to upgrade just as I did.  Just go to the land office, pay for the service.  They go out and put up the chanot markers.  I think that is what my neighbour is doing.

Good news! Can not see any reasons why your claim to your land should be "in question" giving the fact that the entire region is beeing upgraded to "Chanote" and therefore your property rights are as "iron-clad" as your Thai neighbors.

Just declare "victory" and relax.

[sirineou]

37 minutes ago, swissie said:

In other words: If I can prove that I slept on the steps of "Mike Shopping Mall" in Pattaya for the last 10 years I can not be denied "domicile"?

Laws in Thailand are strange (understatement), but not that strange!

LOL

No , not really. and these laws are not specific to Thailand. 

It actually makes sense. if someone has being taking care of a property for over 10 years, and the owner has not objected it constitutes abandonment.   

[swissie]

46 minutes ago, sirineou said:

LOL

No , not really. and these laws are not specific to Thailand. 

It actually makes sense. if someone has being taking care of a property for over 10 years, and the owner has not objected it constitutes abandonment.   

No, not really!

Still plenty of "housing " available after the 2008 crash in the US. The modern-day "squatters" in those "abandoned houses" will not ever aquire "Ownership", no matter how long they "squat" there and no matter how much they "take care" of the place.

[swissie]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

I don't know how they do it in Thailand, but I know how it is done in most countries in the world.

The property markers are not the only  indication of where your land is. They are only a physical representation.

It is called the metes and bounds method and as far as I know it is also used in thailand  the picture below   describes the Metes and bound system (it is for florida but applies to thailand also) There is a Primary starting point (POB) which is one corner of the property, From the POB you can determine the location of all other markers. So the POB will have to be removed.

the POB is the corner of the property where the line is attached

But that line is also attached to a fixed point on a grid (intersections of grid lines) So even if the POB was removed it can be re established by using the information on the legal description.  You see the writing on the line? it has direction and length.

So your property is located a certain distance and direction from a particular grid intersection, establishing a POB from the POB you can locate all other markers.

 

I would not worry about the squatters law too much unless you have people living on your property for over 10 years. I just wanted you to know that it is possible,However improbable.

If you are interested in to the legalese read below link. but it will probably confuse you because it contains a lot of other information

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=_aaurGlchl4C&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=is+the+metes+and+bounds+method+used+in+Thailand&source=bl&ots=LDy-1C2yph&sig=ACfU3U2WIU34ZnHM6d_y9dhEjfvI5im2pg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjozqGO9snmAhVFQ80KHdWjB_UQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=is the metes and bounds method used in Thailand&f=false

 

 

 

Thanks Siri, excellent contribution.
Basically a compilation of what I said before concerning this subject. Congrats! You deserve a cigar!

As far as the "property abandonement concept" is concerned: Not enforced by any country anymore.
(Those laws originating back to the "founding years" of the US/Canada.) Never accepted as a worldwide concept, especially never in the "old world".
- Land ownership can even be part of any inheritance, over generations. (If you got the proper papers, you got the land).
- How much (non productive) land is beeing held for speculative purposes only, worldwide? It's called an "investement" for my kids. And un-challangeable by "squatters".
Of course I reaise that Thailand is "different" in so many ways. BUT NOT THAT DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO BE PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (or not be part of it).
I remain modestly positive as far as this is concerned.

[Crossy]

It's not unknown for land borders to "drift" under the influence of a flow of $$$, particularly if the owner of the reduced area isn't present to push back.

 

Once it's done, it's done, the result of the latest survey counts unless you can categorically prove wrongdoing by the surveyor.

 

As noted above, the existing markers shouldn't be that difficult to locate even if overgrown, it's just down to how enthusiastic the searchers are.

 

5 rai is a decent chunk, I think I (or Madam) would be taking a holiday to Thailand. It may also be wise to have your own parcel re-surveyed and put up some sort of permanent boundary structure (chain-link fence possibly) that's harder to move than the marker posts.

 

[Nepal4me]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

LOL

No , not really. and these laws are not specific to Thailand. 

It actually makes sense. if someone has being taking care of a property for over 10 years, and the owner has not objected it constitutes abandonment.   

I'm afraid that I'm not ready to claim victory.  The land dept says in the letter I attached that I have to go there to show where my land is.  I am in Canada, this means I have to retain a lawyer in Samui to handle this for me or at least a person of some sort.  If I don't do this, the land dept will accept what my neighbour says and if I don't dispute within 30 days, the new measurements are then official.  

 

I don't understand this as I have the chanot paper that shows my land.  Why that isn't good enough, I don't know.

 

Its not like I can just ring up the land dept and sort it either.

 

[Nepal4me]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It's not unknown for land borders to "drift" under the influence of a flow of $$$, particularly if the owner of the reduced area isn't present to push back.

 

Once it's done, it's done, the result of the latest survey counts unless you can categorically prove wrongdoing by the surveyor.

 

As noted above, the existing markers shouldn't be that difficult to locate even if overgrown, it's just down to how enthusiastic the searchers are.

 

5 rai is a decent chunk, I think I (or Madam) would be taking a holiday to Thailand. It may also be wise to have your own parcel re-surveyed and put up some sort of permanent boundary structure (chain-link fence possibly) that's harder to move than the marker posts.

 

A chain link fence would be expensive and also wouldn't last if the neighbours wanted to remove it.  Nobody would know, it would just disappear. 

 

It was only 5 years ago, we upgraded to chanot so its not ancient history.  

[sirineou]

13 minutes ago, Nepal4me said:

I'm afraid that I'm not ready to claim victory.  The land dept says in the letter I attached that I have to go there to show where my land is.  I am in Canada, this means I have to retain a lawyer in Samui to handle this for me or at least a person of some sort.  If I don't do this, the land dept will accept what my neighbour says and if I don't dispute within 30 days, the new measurements are then official.  

 

I don't understand this as I have the chanot paper that shows my land.  Why that isn't good enough, I don't know.

 

Its not like I can just ring up the land dept and sort it either.

 

Your wife could call them, explain the situation and ask for advice.

[baansgr]

If your land was upgraded to Cha note and as you said has markers, land office will have a record of this, also co ordinates are on your Cha note so don't understand why there would be any discrepency  on adjoining land plots to yours. Didn't make sense

[mngmn]

7 hours ago, swissie said:

"I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office."

 

If that's not enough, then I don't know what is!

Brown envelope? Can be used to move the markers.

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, swissie said:

Thanks Siri, excellent contribution.
Basically a compilation of what I said before concerning this subject. Congrats! You deserve a cigar!

As far as the "property abandonement concept" is concerned: Not enforced by any country anymore.
(Those laws originating back to the "founding years" of the US/Canada.) Never accepted as a worldwide concept, especially never in the "old world".
- Land ownership can even be part of any inheritance, over generations. (If you got the proper papers, you got the land).
- How much (non productive) land is beeing held for speculative purposes only, worldwide? It's called an "investement" for my kids. And un-challangeable by "squatters".
Of course I reaise that Thailand is "different" in so many ways. BUT NOT THAT DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO BE PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (or not be part of it).
I remain modestly positive as far as this is concerned.

Thank you for your kind words ,

squatters right are real and enforceable , at least in the US where I have some experience in the subject and I happened to have being involved in a case.

My good friend JP was living with his GF Monica a very long time, He had being involved in a bad divorce in the past and against my advice did not want to get married again, He lived with monica for 15 maybe more years, and in the eyes of everyone they were married, but not legally so. 

 A couple of years ago he was involved in a very bad work related accident that almost killed him , he had pins in his legs and was  in a lot of pain. and under heavy duty pain killers.  

 He had a legal case that they had offered to settle for four million dollars and he did not settle because his case was worth a lot more. 

 After a year he started to feel better and walk around with crutches and him and Monica went to stay  at my Florida home for a little vacation. I was in NY.

 One night he forgot that was on pain killers drank too much and never woke up. 

Because he was not married and  his ex-wife was taking care their two daughters, The ex- wife was awarded everything and wanted to Throw Monica out of JP's house. 

In a conversation that I had with Monica she told me that JP did not have a bank account because he did not want the ex-wife to garnish it, and they did everything through her bank account and that at least she had the money that was on her bank account.

  First let me say that for Five years 2000-2005 I was a licensed real estate agent and worked for C21 so i know a few things about property rights'

 So when she said they paid all the bills from her bank account a lightbulb went off in my head. 

"How did You pay your property taxes I asked her"  she said "By check" 

"whose Name was on the check" I asked  "Mine she said"

BINGO.

We found her checking account records. hired a lawyer and filed a squatters rights, and abandonment case. .

Monica got the house. In her case it was seven years of living there and paying the property tax.

She still thanks me every time we meet. 

The Ex-wife got everything else , including his retirement and I am sure JP it turning in his grave. He really hater the B ich. 

 

[nickcar]

 Last time I had some land measured  could not find the marker that is usually set according to a satellite. (It could be a mountain here or something I’m not sure but I think it was a satellite). They were then able to place a new marker using a laptop which was able to connect to the satellite