Alternative Future in the Philippines

[donnacha]

Increasing air pollution, rising prices, strengthening Baht, excessive Chinese tourism, ruder attitudes, increasing red tape, and uncertainty about the future of Westerners here.
 

For me, all of the above issues undercut the idea of Thailand as a long-term base or home. With just a few years to go until I am 50 and can stay in Thailand full-time on the basis of retirement, the prospect no longer appeals to me.
 

I have been to the Philippines several times and am aware of the downsides, which I would sum up as: a third world country with poor infrastructure, high crime, relatively expensive housing, expensive utilities, substandard health care, and unimpressive, unhealthy food.
 

On the other hand, my gut tells me that certain key things may be possible in the Philippines that are not possible here in Thailand: 

1. Striking up real friendships with locals. In 30 years of coming here, I have never had a friendship with a Thai man. I actually made more friends during a fortnight in Vietnam.

2. Finding a community of people with common interests.

3. Feeling safe enough about the long-term attitudes towards Westerners for it to be worth laying down roots.

4. The option to work, consult, or set up a business.

5. Finding a partner with an openess and intellectual curiosity about the world beyond her own country.

I have been in a relationship here for five years. We are the same age. Meeting in our early 40s, we never had the "fire of young love" stage. She has been married twice, once very briefly to a Thai, and for ten years to an Englishman which, obviously, is a disappointing experience for any woman.

I know that women everywhere are crazy, I am not expecting an angel, but have come to believe that there is something particularly impatient, inexhaustibly dissatisfied, and, when you get down to it, shallow about how Thai women perceive the world.
 

To give her credit, my partner is highly intelligent, speaks fluent English, has a postgraduate degree, has spent over a decade working abroad, her family has money, and she is now having real success with her online business, on which she works extremely hard. I pay my way but we live in her house, she does not profit financially from having me around.
 

I respect her, and we have our moments of laughter, but I do not find the grumpiness, nit-picking, and general disrespect cute or funny.
 

I am embarrassed that she has been unwelcoming when an expat friend popped around to visit. Having no friends outside her own family, she genuinely does not understand why I might want to have some. She resents it if I head into the city to attend a talk or conference.

I understand that her business places her under a lot of pressure, but the near-constant negativity has worn me down.

I am not comfortable with either the subtle and the not-so-subtle ways in which I am excluded and not consulted on issues which do concern me. I am never, ever asked for advice on anything relating to her business, even though I have been running online businesses for over 25 years.

It might just be my partner, perhaps all the rest of you have sweet, loving girls, or warm, giving ladyboys. Perhaps it is simply that I am inherently unlovable ????
 

I do, though, see other farangs in more-or-less the same situation. For the most part, they seem to bravely soldier on, at peace with being sidelined and apparently "managed", like an overgrown child, rather than loved and respected. Their wife runs their household and takes "good care" of them but, otherwise, does not seem particularly enthusiastic.

Is that love? Is that what love means in Thailand?

In the Philippines, I know that many guys wind up in serious trouble, tangled up in an ill-advised relationship with a filipina from a dirt-poor background. We have all heard the nightmare stories.
 

I still, though, have the impression that filipinas are inherently happier and more likely to be satisfied, more realistic about what a normal guy can provide, and more appreciative of a foreign partner.
 

Perhaps I am kidding myself, but I am strongly drawn to the idea that it is not too late to find a relationship with a nice person who could love me, possibly even in the straightforward Western sense of actually liking me a lot and occasionally being sweet towards me.

Am I being naive? Should I accept that what I have is appropriate for someone my age, is the type of more realistic relationship that is more likely to endure over my remaining decades?

Or should I throw the dice, get the frack over to the Philippines, and start again?


 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I have been in a relationship here for five years. We are the same age. Meeting in our early 40s, we never had the "fire of young love" stage. She has been married twice, once very briefly to a Thai, and for ten years to an Englishman which, obviously, is a disappointing experience for any woman.

 

I am embarrassed that she has been unwelcoming when an expat friend popped around to visit. Having no friends outside her own family, she genuinely does not understand why I might want to have some. She resents it if I head into the city to attend a talk or conference.

 

It might just be my partner, perhaps all the rest of you have sweet, loving girls, or warm, giving ladyboys. Perhaps it is simply that I am inherently unlovable

1) She'd only be disappointed if he didn't buy her a house.

2) I've noticed Thais don't really have friends, their family are the only people they really think about, I can understand that. As for you going into town, she's assuming you will take the opportunity to have sex with another woman, or at the very least a naughty massage.

3) I don't believe women over 25 are capable of loving a 'partner', it's all self-interest, manipulation and asset gathering for their children/blood relatives.

 

As for Filipino girls, they make much better companions than Thai girls, much closer culturally to us, but still you must consider answer 3). Good luck.

Edited December 27, 2019 by BritManToo

[donnacha]

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

She'd only be disappointed if he didn't buy her a house.

He didn't ????

As her father would bitterly grumble, when friends would compliment him on the lovely house they presumed his daughter's farang had shelled out for, "Not one satang!"

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[ThomasThBKK]

18 minutes ago, donnacha said:

4. The option to work, consult, or set up a business.

Forget it.

 

I did a bunch of investments into companies there, such a pain in the ass, worse than vietnam even.

 

Foreigners can absolutely not run a company there, foreign lawyers are absolutely not allowed to work at all (here they just cant go to court). You cannot own more than 40% of a PH company, setting up companies takes forever, they basically have just stock listed companies, even if they arent really listed. 

Like a Thai PLC - a limited, BOI etc is not available.

 

The legal system absolutely is absolutely HILARIOUS - some crackpot had to come up with that, no lawyer understands it. They copy/pasted spanish law and later english law and now it's an absolute giant mess. 

 

 

[donnacha]

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I've noticed Thais don't really have friends, their family are the only people they really think about

 

Yes, definitely the case here, and more broadly in Thai society, which explains why it is near-impossible to make Thai friends.
 

 

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

As for you going into town, she's assuming you will take the opportunity to have sex with another woman, or at the very least a naughty massage.

Oddly enough, I have a free pass to <deleted> or get a blowie from a massage girl, as long as I tell her beforehand, and as long as no telephone number changes hands.

Obviously, in a million years, I would never take her up on it ????

If I really felt the urge, I would kindly go off and take care of it, but I think she knows I am not really the cheating kind. Clearly, as this post evidences, I am more the Dump-you-and-start-again-in-another-country kind.
 

 

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

3) I don't believe women over 25 are capable of loving a 'partner', it's all self-interest, manipulation and asset gathering for their children/blood relatives.

That's grim but strikes me as fundamentally correct.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Forget it.

 

I did a bunch of investments into companies there, such a pain in the ass, worse than vietnam even.

 

Foreigners can absolutely not run a company there, foreign lawyers are absolutely not allowed to work at all (here they just cant go to court). You cannot own more than 40% of a PH company, setting up companies takes forever, they basically have just stock listed companies, even if they arent really listed. 

Like a Thai PLC - a limited, BOI etc is not available.

 

The legal system absolutely is absolutely HILARIOUS - some crackpot had to come up with that, no lawyer understands it. They copy/pasted spanish law and later english law and now it's an absolute giant mess. 

 

 

I have a very different experience. I had 2 Thai companies that both proved to be massive headaches but for the past 6 years I have had a Ph company that has been much more straightforward.

 

For me, the big difference, apart from being able to understand the processes and negotiate face to face with clients, is that there is a very Western mentality in doing business in the Philippines. My staff can, in the main, think for themselves and feel empowered to take decisions, whereas when I had my Thai company, I had to do all the thinking. 

 

The 40% limit is a pain, but there are ways round that. Permitry is also a bit a hassle, but if you can put up with it, you might be pleasantly surprised when comparing to Thailand. 

[cyril sneer]

Can’t believe I read the first half of that 

[donnacha]

22 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Forget it.

 

I did a bunch of investments into companies there, such a pain in the ass, worse than vietnam even.

 

Foreigners can absolutely not run a company there, foreign lawyers are absolutely not allowed to work at all (here they just cant go to court). You cannot own more than 40% of a PH company, setting up companies takes forever, they basically have just stock listed companies, even if they arent really listed. 

Like a Thai PLC - a limited, BOI etc is not available.

 

Ah, okay, I stand corrected.

I had read one nightmare story about a couple of startup guys who set up a company and small office in the Philippines. What screwed them over massively was the Labor laws and the biased Labor courts.

They caught an employee stealing, fired her and, despite having solid evidence of the repeated thefts, decided to give her a break and not call the police in.

She promptly took a case against them for unfair termination. Their own lawyers explained that there was no possible way for foreign employers to win it, even with the evidence of theft, so, she got a settle so big it that it scuttled their business.

The remainder of their money went on paying off the other employees, but they figured the real loss was that they wasted six months on stress and not moving their business forward, huge opportunity cost.

Would you happen to know, @ThomasThBKK, whether it is more accepted there, than here, for foreigners to consult or do freelance work for companies, payable to their foreign companies, and not having a Philippines company at all?

My understanding is that anyone trying that here, in Thailand, would not get very far before being unceremoniously booted out.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[mike787]

Every post so far is dead accurate....

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, cyril sneer said:

Can’t believe I read the first half of that 

Well done.

You should keep pursing literacy, it's well worth the effort.

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

For me, the big difference, apart from being able to understand the processes and negotiate face to face with clients, is that there is a very Western mentality in doing business in the Philippines. My staff can, in the main, think for themselves and feel empowered to take decisions, whereas when I had my Thai company, I had to do all the thinking. 

For me, that would be a big attraction. I have been in Thailand long enough, and seen my partner hire so many Thais who seemed promising, to believe it is simply not worth the effort of hiring and training Thais. It pretty much never works out.

On the other hand, I have also seen a lot of friends have success in hiring Filipinas to work remotely, but obviously they avoided all the red tape of having to set up a company in the Philippines, they would just pay them.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[cyril sneer]

6 minutes ago, donnacha said:

Well done.

You should keep pursing literacy, it's well worth the effort.

It more or less reads about how great you are

 

Are you American by any chance?

[donnacha]

13 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

It more or less reads about how great you are

 

Are you American by any chance?

Okay, Cyril, I'll take a wild guess that you are English.

My joke about my partner's ex-husband being English, and that "obviously" being disappointing for any woman, was simply that: a joke.

Anyone familiar with my posts here knows that I take the pee out of everyone. I'd say about half the members here are English and it should be obvious that I was just taking the opportunity to slip in a wee joke.

No, I am not American and, seriously, having just reread my post, I cannot see a single phrase or sentence that in any way suggests that I am "great".

It is primarily about a relationship that is not working out, and me wondering if I should bail to another country - not exactly Man of the Year material.

I invite you to accept my assurance that I was not attacking my English brothers, and reinterpret what I wrote (or, as much of what I wrote as you can manage) in that more benign light.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[DaRoadrunner]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

doing business in the Philippines. My staff can, in the main, think for themselves and feel empowered to take decisions, whereas when I had my Thai company, I had to do all the thinking. 

Truer words were never said.

 

Doing business in Thailand will give you brain damage.

 

As for Da Phils vs Thailand, or any of the other SE Asian alternatives.... Maybe a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. So far, none are a solution to me.

Edited December 27, 2019 by DaRoadrunner

[rhodie]

54 minutes ago, donnacha said:

relatively expensive housing

I only quote this as it is starting to change because of the strength of the Baht. It was always very noticeable in the past, but not so much these days. Last time there AUD$ wise it is pretty much the same now.

[cyril sneer]

10 minutes ago, donnacha said:

slip in a wee joke

you arn't scottish are you? 

[donnacha]

4 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

you arn't scottish are you?

No, but well spotted! 

Born in England, raised in Ireland, then lived in Edinburgh for a decade, that's probably where I picked up the "wee" habit ????

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

https://www.ft.com/content/73232f8c-2876-11ea-9a4f-963f0ec7e134

 

Nothing is ever unchanging...especially these days.
 

Quote

 

Philippines threatens to impose visa requirements on US citizens
...
“Should a ban from entry into US territory be enforced against Philippine officials involved in . . . Senator de Lima’s lawful imprisonment, this government will require all Americans intending to come to the Philippines to apply [for] and secure a visa before they can enter Philippine territory,” Mr Panelo told reporters in Manila. 

 

US citizens are currently allowed to enter the Philippines for up to 30 days, providing they have a valid passport and can show a return ticket.  Mr Panelo said that two US senators who drafted the travel ban, included in amendments to the US 2020 budget and signed by president Donald Trump last week, would be barred from entering the country. 

 

 

[Roy Baht]

This just in: Philippines bans two U.S. senators, mulls new visa rules for Americans

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/philippines-bans-two-u-senators-074457468.html

[Nakmuay887]

https://britishexpats.com/forum/philippines-155/me-my-family-851728/

 

I present the greatest thread to ever grace an expat forum, I have never read anything even remotely as horrific and entertaining as this mess start to finsh. took me a week but was well worth it. 

 

give it a read just for fun! it takes place in phil not thailand

[Nakmuay887]

thailand has it's issues but I don't think many understand how far behind the philippines is in pretty much every way other than beaches. If I was moving away from here it would be to vietnam as I think that country truly is the future of SEA

Edited December 27, 2019 by Nakmuay887

[metempsychotic]

49 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Forget it.

 

I did a bunch of investments into companies there, such a pain in the ass, worse than vietnam even.

 

Foreigners can absolutely not run a company there, foreign lawyers are absolutely not allowed to work at all (here they just cant go to court). You cannot own more than 40% of a PH company, setting up companies takes forever, they basically have just stock listed companies, even if they arent really listed. 

Like a Thai PLC - a limited, BOI etc is not available.

 

The legal system absolutely is absolutely HILARIOUS - some crackpot had to come up with that, no lawyer understands it. They copy/pasted spanish law and later english law and now it's an absolute giant mess. 

 

 

Cant buy a house either.

 

Around 8 years between thailand and phils with the last 5 in phils full time except for visits "home" to Thailand.

 

The op is being naive in everyway, especially when it comes to the women.

 

The only thing easy is the visas.

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, Nakmuay887 said:

I present the greatest thread to ever grace an expat forum, I have never read anything even remotely as horrific and entertaining as this mess start to finsh. took me a week but was well worth it. 

That is actually the very thread I was thinking of when I mentioned the nightmare stories we hear!

I read the whole thing too, all 250 pages. It is a masterclass in how deluded a man can belong, despite everyone in the world trying to save him from his own stupidity.

 

[donnacha]

3 minutes ago, Nakmuay887 said:

If I was moving away from here it would be to vietnam as I think that country truly is the future of SEA

I have been in Vietnam a few times and enjoyed it, but I think I've identified that what I most value is the personal connections, both socially and in relationships, and my impression is that Vietnam, although friendlier than Thailand, is nowhere near as culturally accessible as the Philippines appears to be.

Also, Vietnam does not seem to be particularly easy, in terms of visas, for non-Americans. It is ironic that, coming from a country that pointedly didn't bomb the <deleted> out of them for years, I cannot enter Vietnam without a visa and, as I understand it, I can only stay for a month or 3 months with a visa, not a year as the Americans are granted.

[Ron jeremy]

4 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I have been in Vietnam a few times and enjoyed it, but I think I've identified that what I most value is the personal connections, both socially and in relationships, and my impression is that Vietnam, although friendlier than Thailand, is nowhere near as culturally accessible as the Philippines appears to be.

Also, Vietnam does not seem to be particularly easy, in terms of visas, for non-Americans. It is ironic that, coming from a country that pointedly didn't bomb the <deleted> out of them for years, I cannot enter Vietnam without a visa and, as I understand it, I can only stay for a month or 3 months with a visa, not a year as the Americans are granted.

Yes, And u can get a second 3 month visa without leaving the country. But not as easy as other countries, but I know people that have stayed on 3 month visas for years. Never a hassle.they are slowly relaxing visa rules, but have learned to do it slowly, learning from thailands mistakes, and as the parade of the u wanted flood from Thailand, they don't want these in their country, who can blame them? 

good luck to u.

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, metempsychotic said:

The op is being naive in everyway, especially when it comes to the women.

Oh, for sure, without a doubt. I'm posting here to try and get some measure of how naive and delusional my current thinking is, before possibly taking a massive leap.

My current relationship does not appear to be making either of us happy, and it is something that I more-or-less fell into. Now I am trying to find out if, in the experience of the other men here, I might be more likely to find a partner in the Philippines who is, at least, somewhat happier.

No one is suggesting that women anywhere are trouble free, or easy, but some of the responses here so far, most notably @BritManToo, seem to suggest that filipinas can be a better fit culturally.
 

 

17 minutes ago, metempsychotic said:

The only thing easy is the visas.

Well, after all the hassle and stress visas have given me over the past year, that sounds like a pretty good start.
 

[Nakmuay887]

18 minutes ago, donnacha said:

I have been in Vietnam a few times and enjoyed it, but I think I've identified that what I most value is the personal connections, both socially and in relationships, and my impression is that Vietnam, although friendlier than Thailand, is nowhere near as culturally accessible as the Philippines appears to be.

Also, Vietnam does not seem to be particularly easy, in terms of visas, for non-Americans. It is ironic that, coming from a country that pointedly didn't bomb the <deleted> out of them for years, I cannot enter Vietnam without a visa and, as I understand it, I can only stay for a month or 3 months with a visa, not a year as the Americans are granted.

I read somewhere that the 12 month visa will be shifting back to other countries soon, Canada, England etc. I guess we shall see!

 

I agree about the connections though, it's a very reserved country in comparison to say Thailand. The people come across as colder or more closed off at first glance

[Nakmuay887]

25 minutes ago, donnacha said:

That is actually the very thread I was thinking of when I mentioned the nightmare stories we hear!

I read the whole thing too, all 250 pages. It is a masterclass in how deluded a man can belong, despite everyone in the world trying to save him from his own stupidity.

 

This thread should be mandatory for any expat moving to a country in SEA in pursuit of a relationship. 

 

this could be a novel or a tv show, seriously. I admire the OP of it because of how thick skinned he was at times even towards the bitter end but man the warning signs were there from page 2 and it continued on another 4 years!!!!

[Nakmuay887]

11 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

Yes, And u can get a second 3 month visa without leaving the country. But not as easy as other countries, but I know people that have stayed on 3 month visas for years. Never a hassle.they are slowly relaxing visa rules, but have learned to do it slowly, learning from thailands mistakes, and as the parade of the u wanted flood from Thailand, they don't want these in their country, who can blame them? 

good luck to u.

I plan to use Vietnam as my hub if I ever have to leave thailand for a period of time because of visa issues here. I chose Vietnam simply because it's a bit cheaper, not too far away and the visas are pretty relaxed. Cambodia was my other idea but seems pricey in many regards in comparison to Vietnam although I could just be naive 

[donnacha]

18 minutes ago, Nakmuay887 said:

I read somewhere that the 12 month visa will be shifting back to other countries soon, Canada, England etc. I guess we shall see!

That would be wonderful although, inevitably, Vietnam would quickly be awash with the "parade of the unwanted" that @Ron jeremy warned about.

Actually, for me, that one change might be enough to place Vietnam ahead of the Philippines.

 

18 minutes ago, Nakmuay887 said:

I agree about the connections though, it's a very reserved country in comparison to say Thailand. The people come across as colder or more closed off at first glance

They can certainly be less polite at times. I mostly experienced patient friendliness but, in one case, was pretty much ordered out of a noodle restaurant in Đồng Hới by a waiter who didn't want to be bothered by a foreigner.

I was bemused, it was the first time that any establishment had refused to serve me, definitely not something that would happen in Thailand.

It does make me wonder if, beneath the current novelty and curiosity, there might be, as turned out to be the case in Thailand, a streak of anti-foreigner nationalism lurking beneath the surface in Vietnam.

Given their history, I wouldn't blame them if there was, but it has to be a consideration for any foreigner assessing Vietnam as a long-term base.
 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by donnacha