Teaching at a government school VS private school

[Nakmuay887]

I was in Sukothai recently for two job interviews for positions as an english teacher, 

 

Long story short I was short listed at a pretty prestigious government high school there as well as a private school owned by a Chinese gentleman and his family. 

 

For those who have experience teaching in Thailand is there a direction I should be going? Is one considered better than another? The government school was incredibly straight laced and I sat in a room for 3 hours with a half dozen Middle aged Thai woman who picked apart pretty much every aspect of me they could. In the end they came to the decision they are willing to fire the current teacher to hire me, would be at the end of March. The private school offered me the job on the spot after an interview. 

 

My plan is still the NGO route but options are good and I am malleable and willing to work wherever doing whatever on top of boxing and my volunteer work. 

 

TLDR: government, highschool vs Chinese/Thai primary school (private)

 

cheers! 

[Isaanbiker]

OP, there are many things to consider. Do they pay a 12 months salary?

 

Do you get paid when the school is closed, or do you have to do summer camps to receive your salary?

How many contact hours per week?

 

Will the school pay for your visa and work permit, which is a good sign that they do think in favor of the foreign teacher.

 

If the one school would fire the existing teacher, wouldn't they do that to you when a better qualified teacher shows up? 

 

I know a Chinese owned private school in the sticks where the Thai staff has to work 30 plus hours/week. The pay is not right, no insurance, etc.

 

How many hours do they want you to be on campus; what about “extra-curricular activities?”

 

I prefer to have less money, but working in a healthy environment. Please be aware that spoken words do not mean anything here.

 

Only what’s in your contract counts in the end. 

Ask some people who work for the school how it is before you even start there. If they don’t pay for the Thai SS, you could be without insurance. 

[Nakmuay887]

2 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

OP, there are many things to consider. Do they pay a 12 months salary?

Yes to both, the starting contract was 1 full year, the private school is hoping for someone for 3 years at least

 

Do you get paid when the school is closed, or do you have to do summer camps to receive your salary?

good question and one I had not thought of, I will ask exactly this

How many contact hours per week?

40 and 35

 

Will the school pay for your visa and work permit, which is a good sign that they do think in favor of the foreign teacher.

Yes to both

If the one school would fire the existing teacher, wouldn't they do that to you when a better qualified teacher shows up? 

 I met the woman in question, she's been there a few years and I think probably got the job because she knew someone. Her english wasn't horrible but it wasn't as good as mine, she's also got the personality of a napkin. They have been unhappy with her for some time.

I know a Chinese owned private school in the sticks where the Thai staff has to work 30 plus hours/week. The pay is not right, no insurance, etc. 45000 baht a month, 2 meals a day covered, work permit and visa, 

 

How many hours do they want you to be on campus; what about “extra-curricular activities?”

Both schools were interested in having me transition into a physical education position down the road as my thai strengthens because I have a bachelors in that, and many years experience. There were offerings of tutoring on the side at the Chinese school for an extra 5000 baht a week. I need to nail down the exact number though. Another good question 

 

I prefer to have less money, but working in a healthy environment. Please be aware that spoken words do not mean anything here. Agreed, and this is more about the visa than it is the income, 

 

Only what’s in your contract counts in the end. 

Ask some people who work for the school how it is before you even start there. If they don’t pay for the Thai SS, you could be without insurance. 

I appreciate all your help and detailed and thought out answers, this is really helpful. I don't seem to be struggling too badly to find job offerings in various things, I have two degrees, One in Criminal Justice with a minor in Criminology and a bachelor of physical education. I also owned and ran a very big Thai boxing gym in Canada for some years. 

 

Many people have been telling me I am pretty overqualified for this part of the Country and should be searching in BKK or CM specifically as I could probably find a strong salary there. Again it's not about the salary as I will still live pretty meagerly and prefer to help the children around here with the money I earn.

 

Thanks again! I really appreciate your time

[recom273]

35-40 contact hours? 
 

is that the norm these days? Even if that was periods, that’s still seems a lot.

Presuming, you will be receiving the regular rate of 33-35k less tax, that’s a pretty hefty day for a little over $35 US / day.

 

I would also ask, how many grades that is over, ask how many “lesson plans” you would need to write every week. I would always calculated the repeat lessons, and theN factor in the odd once a week to the EP programme, the lesson to a grade one because the Thai teacher was on leave, a club activity and the like. This is all added pressure. 

Btw .. I have never worked at a (government) school that’s hasn’t been prestigious. 
 

[Nakmuay887]

1 minute ago, recom273 said:

35-40 contact hours? 
 

is that the norm these days? Even if that was periods, that’s still seems a lot.

Presuming, you will be receiving the regular rate of 33-35k less tax, that’s a pretty hefty day for a little over $35 US / day.

 

I would also ask, how many grades that is over, ask how many “lesson plans” you would need to write every week. I would always calculated the repeat lessons, and theN factor in the odd once a week to the EP programme, the lesson to a grade one because the Thai teacher was on leave, a club activity and the like. This is all added pressure. 

Btw .. I have never worked at a (government) school that’s hasn’t been prestigious. 
 

they both offered more than 33-35 but yes I felt it was a lot of hours, unless something was lost in translation. I will post the details from both jobs here when I receive them via email.

 

The chinese school paid a fair bit higher, but I also felt like less stability and the fact they were pretty much ready to hire me on a whim after they met me and saw my resume. it felt too quick and maybe too good to be true. I am pretty cynical and try to cover my basis so I don't get burned in situations such as this, but maybe I misjudged it

[otherstuff1957]

35 - 40 hours on campus is fairly normal.  The real question is how many teaching hours and how many classes/grades and lesson plans will be required?  A normal teaching load is somewhere between 16 and 24 teaching hours per week. 

 

Most Government schools have several classes per grade, so 24 hours could be 4 lessons repeated 6 times, which is quite doable.  Private schools, on the other hand, will often only have 1 or 2 classes per grade, so 24 hours could require planning and teaching 12 different lessons twice a week for grades 1 - 12!

 

 

[Isaanbiker]

40 and 35 is insane!!!!

 

 

  If that's teaching hours where you've got to be physically in a classroom, it will burn you out.

 

  I've got 22 teaching/contact hours, and that's enough for me, including lesson planning, testing, attendance, Bookmark ( a Thai program we have to use for their grades which takes a huge amount of hours!), and plenty of other "extracurricular activities".

 

Preparing students for competitions in your free time is only one of them. 

 

  How could you teach for eight hours a day? That's the number of hours we have to stay at school. 

 

  Please be careful before you sign a contract, it's the worst time now to find a job, I understand.

 

Plenty of jobs will be available starting from March, and the new academic year usually begins in the middle of May. 

 

  

 

   

[Isaanbiker]

13 minutes ago, otherstuff1957 said:

35 - 40 hours on campus is fairly normal.  The real question is how many teaching hours and how many classes/grades and lesson plans will be required?  A normal teaching load is somewhere between 16 and 24 teaching hours per week. 

 

Most Government schools have several classes per grade, so 24 hours could be 4 lessons repeated 6 times, which is quite doable.  Private schools, on the other hand, will often only have 1 or 2 classes per grade, so 24 hours could require planning and teaching 12 different lessons twice a week for grades 1 - 12!

 

 

Social security must be included, even when it's a private school where they're trying to not pay for you. 

 

   If you need to produce 12 lesson plans that can take your whole weekend away.

 

It shouldn't be more than 22 hours actually teaching in class. 

 

P.S. Ask them if you'll teach in air conditioned classrooms.

 

If you have to teach without and might not even have a fan to cool you down, you'll know what hell is like.

 

But if you start as a PE teacher then I understand the workload. You'd have to teach all their classes and often in the hot sun. 

 

  That's something you've gotta find out before you sign anything. Best of luck! 

 

 

  

 

  

[Nakmuay887]

@Isaanbiker thank you for taking the time to help me out, I shot you a quick PM. cheers!

 

thanks again,

 

also thanks to the others who offered some advice and opinions, I appreciate it

[FritsSikkink]

5 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

they both offered more than 33-35 but yes I felt it was a lot of hours, unless something was lost in translation. I will post the details from both jobs here when I receive them via email.

 

The chinese school paid a fair bit higher, but I also felt like less stability and the fact they were pretty much ready to hire me on a whim after they met me and saw my resume. it felt too quick and maybe too good to be true. I am pretty cynical and try to cover my basis so I don't get burned in situations such as this, but maybe I misjudged it

If you have a good CV and they think during the interview that it matches with your skills, you can get hired very quickly for a lot of jobs.

[cyril sneer]

18 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

2 meals a day covered

this would ring alarm bells for me

[Isaanbiker]

4 hours ago, cyril sneer said:

this would ring alarm bells for me

Not really. But the canteens are usually not known for good food.

 

   We have a huge canteen ( 4,000 + students) , but I always eat out. 

[Nakmuay887]

17 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you have a good CV and they think during the interview that it matches with your skills, you can get hired very quickly for a lot of jobs.

yeah that is exactly what happened, 

[cyril sneer]

51 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

Not really. But the canteens are usually not known for good food.

 

   We have a huge canteen ( 4,000 + students) , but I always eat out. 

when free meals/accomadation are offered as part of the package, this usually isnt a good thing, regardless of cost

[Kurtf]

In my three years of teaching conversational English in government schools, I would say you would be far better off teaching in a private school where the children and the children's parents are all motivated to actually have the children learn English. In Government schools you will find the children want to learn English. Just ask them and they all will say yeah yeah. But ask them to do homework or to practice outside of the one 45 minute per week class and they can't be bothered. And their parents aren't interested in them learning English either. Their attitude seems to be more along the lines of, yes it would be nice but they don't really need it. Plus unless you are fluent in Thai, actually communicating with Thai kids is going to be a major problem. And if you think government school kids are going to sit quietly and pay attention without you becoming a bit of a bully..well, you would be delusional to think so. Thai teachers have indoctrinated the kids that talking in class is OK. Plus the Thai kids have had English taught to them since grade one by teachers that can not speak English. All in all a very frustrating experience so don't get your hopes up too high. The private school where parents had to fork over some serious cash each year which motivates them to have their kids work hard and actually learn the language is the way to go in my humble opinion.

[Nakmuay887]

13 minutes ago, Kurtf said:

In my three years of teaching conversational English in government schools, I would say you would be far better off teaching in a private school where the children and the children's parents are all motivated to actually have the children learn English. In Government schools you will find the children want to learn English. Just ask them and they all will say yeah yeah. But ask them to do homework or to practice outside of the one 45 minute per week class and they can't be bothered. And their parents aren't interested in them learning English either. Their attitude seems to be more along the lines of, yes it would be nice but they don't really need it. Plus unless you are fluent in Thai, actually communicating with Thai kids is going to be a major problem. And if you think government school kids are going to sit quietly and pay attention without you becoming a bit of a bully..well, you would be delusional to think so. Thai teachers have indoctrinated the kids that talking in class is OK. Plus the Thai kids have had English taught to them since grade one by teachers that can not speak English. All in all a very frustrating experience so don't get your hopes up too high. The private school where parents had to fork over some serious cash each year which motivates them to have their kids work hard and actually learn the language is the way to go in my humble opinion.

Thank you for this, I appreciate you taking the time out to write this. I had a lot of these same thoughts. People tend to always take things more seriously when their is a decent amount of their own money involved. 

[Ventenio]

I know both.  First of all, you can find a job with about 18 hours of teaching a week for around 40,000 outside of a big city.  That means you can save 15,000 or more.  Anyhow, let me think back a number of years.  1.  The private school is much, much more in your face.  Videos, meetings, control, all for the money.  You will be watched like a hawk and parents might be demanding if their kids aren't speaking English in 11 minutes.  However, you should be able to get what you want.  Ask for 10,000 more.  55k.  When they say no, ask for 18 hours a week and maybe only one class on Friday or Monday.  They can do anything, and don't let them walk over you too early.  Ask for them to rent you a motorbike, etc..  Everything is possible. Pay your rent, everything.  They will control you and watch you, maybe even via cameras all day, so you might as well try to get more.

2.  govt school.  good luck getting to know the director, which might be a good thing.  teachers will be upset you get paid a lot, but less stress from everyone as they all have longer-term contracts.  at a private school, everyone gets fired.  govt school means cash from Bangkok and they can expense everything.  insurance, everything.  but probably larger class size and you won't teach the kids anything.  or very, very little.  but, honestly, you won't teach the kids in the private school much either.  

kids.  really, they are great everywhere.  

parents.  govt school they will be very nice.  private school, you work for them

 

i vote govt school but only after you really ask for a lot more from this private school.  both directors might be making 400,000 a month so they love money.  if you are weak initially, you will be a slave.  start out strong.  

[stubuzz]

On 12/29/2019 at 9:32 AM, Nakmuay887 said:

The government school was incredibly straight laced and I sat in a room for 3 hours with a half dozen Middle aged Thai woman who picked apart pretty much every aspect of me they could. In the end they came to the decision they are willing to fire the current teacher to hire me, would be at the end of March. The private school offered me the job on the spot after an interview. 

Why did you sit in a room for 3 Hours?

Why did you let them pick you apart?

What are you considering working for such people?

[Nakmuay887]

24 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

Why did you sit in a room for 3 Hours?

Why did you let them pick you apart?

What are you considering working for such people?

it started as an interview with the director who had her son practice English with me while she watched, then other teachers came into the office to have conversations. It was friendly but professional.

 

We chatted maybe an hour about how I ended up in Thailand and why as a Nak Muay from Canada I would want to accept a teaching job. I was careful in that conversation to not make it about the work permit and visa, 

 

I actually enjoyed being grilled by them, didn't bother me any. I've got nothing to hide and want to be transparent as both an expat and a teacher, especially if I was to be employed by them.  

[Nakmuay887]

Moving on;

 

there has been a goldmine of good information here from several of you, so thank you, I appreciate all those that took the time and lent me a hand with information, gave me an entire page of questions to ask a perspective employer if I decide to go the classroom route.

 

It seems teaching online is a vastly better idea with a work permit from a day job doing NGO work

 

Cheers and thanks again!

[Ventenio]

3 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

Moving on;

 

there has been a goldmine of good information here from several of you, so thank you, I appreciate all those that took the time and lent me a hand with information, gave me an entire page of questions to ask a perspective employer if I decide to go the classroom route.

 

It seems teaching online is a vastly better idea with a work permit from a day job doing NGO work

 

Cheers and thanks again!

This one is tricky.  I think teaching online is definitely better in a million ways.  HOWEVER, you don't get the feedback from students as you would in a class.  Your heart melts when kids really try to speak English and they get very excited because they really like you.  You are like their dad, or big brother, and they will really look up to you.  These interactions are great, but 20 hours a week of teaching is simply too much.  Marginal utility, for sure.   It's also nice to go to a job, because then it feels like you are doing something.  But I'm just talking about the short term; 3 to 6 months.  I think you really should experience teaching in person, try the government school.....and it might take them 5 months to get your work permit.  During month 4, quit, there's nothing they can do if you don't have a work permit, and teach online.  

[Nakmuay887]

5 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

This one is tricky.  I think teaching online is definitely better in a million ways.  HOWEVER, you don't get the feedback from students as you would in a class.  Your heart melts when kids really try to speak English and they get very excited because they really like you.  You are like their dad, or big brother, and they will really look up to you.  These interactions are great, but 20 hours a week of teaching is simply too much.  Marginal utility, for sure.   It's also nice to go to a job, because then it feels like you are doing something.  But I'm just talking about the short term; 3 to 6 months.  I think you really should experience teaching in person, try the government school.....and it might take them 5 months to get your work permit.  During month 4, quit, there's nothing they can do if you don't have a work permit, and teach online.  

The government teaching position would be for the work permit, that's why I was open to teaching in a brick and mortar school vs online. But I can likely bypass the need for the permit and visa by doing the same thing at an NGO organization that has been very persistent in hiring me to run a physical education program at one of the nearby refugee camps for migrant children. job pays peanuts but does supply me with a visa and work permit, so there is would be my immediate solution to a long term stay in Thailand until I am married. 

 

During my evenings which would be free, I would then teach online and earn a better income it seems.

 

I love teaching face to face, it's what I have done in Muay Thai for my entire adult life and I know the exact feeling you mention because I saw it every day with my students in Canada at my gym.  

[Denim]

If you love teaching ,  fine. 

 

But if you are only doing it as a means to finance a long stay here you could consider doing something else.

 

I tried it for a few years but found it not to my liking so gave it up.

 

And that was 35 years ago where you could just do it without bothering with work permits , visas and contracts. Must be a nightmare now.

[simon43]

It seems teaching online is a vastly better idea with a work permit from a day job doing NGO work

 

We have been in touch via PM about this.  I teach online both during the daytime (teaching 60 young students in Chinese government schools), and also teaching in the evening/weekends (private 1-1 classes).

 

The daytime lessons only take place during school term time - I make about $2,000 a month from those classes.  The private evening classes are not affected that much by the school holidays - I make $2,000 a month from teaching in the evenings/weekends.

 

I miss my bricks and mortar teaching!  But I want to save money in the bank for old age (just around the corner!).  So online teaching is the way to go for me right now.

 

Once I have banked enough to live off the interest (I estimate in about 7 years from now - Laos banks offer 8% interest on savings), I intend to return again to teach in Burma as a volunteer - assuming my health is all OK ????

[Nakmuay887]

18 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

We have been in touch via PM about this.  I teach online both during the daytime (teaching 60 young students in Chinese government schools), and also teaching in the evening/weekends (private 1-1 classes).

 

The daytime lessons only take place during school term time - I make about $2,000 a month from those classes.  The private evening classes are not affected that much by the school holidays - I make $2,000 a month from teaching in the evenings/weekends.

 

I miss my bricks and mortar teaching!  But I want to save money in the bank for old age (just around the corner!).  So online teaching is the way to go for me right now.

 

Once I have banked enough to live off the interest (I estimate in about 7 years from now - Laos banks offer 8% interest on savings), I intend to return again to teach in Burma as a volunteer - assuming my health is all OK ????

Thank you Simon, I appreciate you reaching out, Speaking of which, I will shoot you that email with the workout plan tonight my friend. cheers!

[otherstuff1957]

1 hour ago, Nakmuay887 said:

I love teaching face to face, it's what I have done in Muay Thai for my entire adult life and I know the exact feeling you mention because I saw it every day with my students in Canada at my gym.  

I taught people how to sail before coming to Thailand.  While I do enjoy teaching, I should warn you that there is a world of difference between teaching motivated adults to do something that they enjoy and teaching kids (F2F or online) something that they have to, but don't necessarily want to learn.

 

I knew how to impart knowledge before I came here.  Classroom management, on the other hand, I learned the hard way.  The easiest way to control a class or an individual student is to make sure that you walk into the classroom with a plan and a backup plan and let the students know that this is what they are going to do today. Keeping them busy is the best way to keep them out of trouble.  Later, you can ease up and play some games with them, but you have to let them know that you are the boss first.

[Isaanbiker]

19 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

The government teaching position would be for the work permit, that's why I was open to teaching in a brick and mortar school vs online. But I can likely bypass the need for the permit and visa by doing the same thing at an NGO organization that has been very persistent in hiring me to run a physical education program at one of the nearby refugee camps for migrant children. job pays peanuts but does supply me with a visa and work permit, so there is would be my immediate solution to a long term stay in Thailand until I am married. 

 

During my evenings which would be free, I would then teach online and earn a better income it seems.

 

I love teaching face to face, it's what I have done in Muay Thai for my entire adult life and I know the exact feeling you mention because I saw it every day with my students in Canada at my gym.  

I have no idea if you're planning to work here longer?

 

I wanted to let you know that it's relatively easy to have Thai social security that you can keep and pay in privately after at least one year of employment/ deductions of your salary. 

 

It's usually 750 baht for the employer and the same amount for you.

That would mean that you'd have to work at least one year at a government school to be eligible. 

 

  At that time you'll have many job offers that might be of interest. 

 

 Should you decide to teach online, you at least have insurance for 438 baht/month that covers all expenses. 

 

   As far as I remember are private schools not included in having the social security. Please see: 

 

   https://thailawonline.com/en/thai-laws/faq/171-social-security.html

 

  

 

  

[Mambowoman]

19 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

We have been in touch via PM about this.  I teach online both during the daytime (teaching 60 young students in Chinese government schools), and also teaching in the evening/weekends (private 1-1 classes).

 

The daytime lessons only take place during school term time - I make about $2,000 a month from those classes.  The private evening classes are not affected that much by the school holidays - I make $2,000 a month from teaching in the evenings/weekends.

 

I miss my bricks and mortar teaching!  But I want to save money in the bank for old age (just around the corner!).  So online teaching is the way to go for me right now.

 

Once I have banked enough to live off the interest (I estimate in about 7 years from now - Laos banks offer 8% interest on savings), I intend to return again to teach in Burma as a volunteer - assuming my health is all OK ????

You always do the best resorts, and are simply the best teacher!

 

Regarding the Laos bank account, is it possible to open one while I'm in Laos, on a tourist visa?

[Number 6]

In best and worst of circumstances it's impossible to say which is better. The top 10-20 secondary schools are public not private. Possibly Satit Chula as exception. There are so many issues that come into the mix it's more department HoD and asst/ director than school policy. I would say in general you'll get a better package at a public school but potentially better wages at private schools. The cap at public schools (all but one which will pay 50-55k, latter for top talent) seems to be 42k to start. Usually if you start this *high* you'll only be given incremental raises.

 

About 45-55k you'll need to find the select private schools and low tier international schools that will pay 60-80k.

 

If I were you I'd not even think about teaching upcountry, especially on those packages, hours, wages.

 

An absolute idiot can land a job for 40k+ often with bonus for 20hrs in Bangkok. Unfortunately, many have.

 

20 hours should be your maximum number of contact hours, period. 2-3 lesson plan a week max. Two books, max. Yeah, we've all done more...

 

Most schools will tell you your hours. They should also be in the contract! After that it's all just a lick and a promise. Rarely can you speak with teachers outside of simply bumping into them.

 

Build a career, don't just get a job.

 

Wait until March April May unless now in early January you can hook something great.

 

Finally, there are many schools with great reputation but very difficult to work at. Do a year and move on if this is the case. Great schools are invaluable in career building.

[Gecko123]

Everyone who has commented so far likely has more teaching experience than me.

 

Fully agree with Isaanbiker's comments about class/teaching time. I typically taught 3 days a week for about 4 hours a day in government schools for about 5 years.  At least initially, after 4 hours of back to back 1 hr classes, I would be absolutely exhausted and have to take a nap immediately upon return home. That was with intensive pronunciation and grammar drills. Had to bring home armloads of homework for correction which ate up tons of time. Quiz and test writing and correcting, and attendance and test score record keeping does too. Often the provided textbooks are hopelessly over the actual ability of the class which means you have to develop your own lesson plans. Attendance and absenteeism in rural government schools can wreak havoc with academic progress, probably a little better in a larger city. Private school attendance and absenteeism much much better, but check class size carefully, because private school class sizes can sometimes be surprisingly large due to profit margin pressures. (step daughter went to private Catholic school).

 

Until you're seasoned about what Thai schools are like, would hold off on evening tutoring. I'd make sure the number of hours you're on duty is real clear. Caliber of students in private schools definitely higher. You will likely be shocked by the academic standards in most rural government schools. That phys ed position sounds pretty cushy to me if pay is the same: no homework to correct, kids 100 times more enthusiastic than they'll be in the classroom, probably better attendance, far fewer discipline problems, you'll probably be much more popular too? What's not to like?

 

Only comment I would add to what others have already said is that some schools are notorious for promising to file the paper work for a work permit and never following through. Confirm that they know how to make the application and have done it in the past. If they've never done it before, that would be a major red flag for me. Until you have that work permit stapled in your passport, pretty sure you're not legal.