Why are more & more expats leaving Thailand?

[FearAndLoathingInLOS]

On 1/1/2020 at 7:54 PM, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: With all your riches and money , are you a landlord back home ?

No, my lord.

 

QUOTE: As a leaver ,( recently left Thailand after a 9 year stint on tourist visas)

So you spent 9 years in Thailand, ILLEGALLY? And now you complain that Thai immigration does not love you?

What will be next? Complaining that the EU will not let you stay forever?

 

Quote

 

 

Can you quote the Thai law that states staying here 9 months or more on tourist visas is illegal ?
Or the law that states "while you're here, you're not allowed to run a business in your own home-country."
I guess that disqualifies manypeople such as Elon Musk, from having a long-term holiday here simply because they have a business to take care of back home.
Or perhaps, you have entered your mid-life crisis and you're jelous of this person having a business back home, or you suffer from alzheimer-disease or schizophrenia or other mental conditions. If that's the case i'd humbly like to apologize, and suggest you to visit a doctor and not read the remainder of this post, I only suggest that you read the rest of this message if none of the medical-conditions are true. There is no law that states "You're allowed to stay here xxx amount of days only if you give up or sell all your businesses or belongings in your home country. They don't really care what you run/own at home, the only important thing is that the decision to grant or deny you entry is at the discretion of the IO (or Immigration Officer)", the only law i know of is that if you happen to stay here more than 180 days you're required to pay your income tax here, instead of your home country regardless of type of VISA.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 2, 2020 by FearAndLoathingInLOS

[likewise]

I left last May after 20+ years, with wife, she had never been in Europe, first winter for her for me first in in 20 years.

Do I miss the place? Yeah sure, I miss the Thailand from 10 something years ago, the Thailand of today is not really under my favorites anymore. Even wife agreed to take our first holiday since leaving elsewhere. We had a good many many years there but as others have said the place lost its charm a long time ago. I always end up feeling nostalgic when thinking about Thailand but I realize the place I want to go to doesn't exist anymore, it has changed too much, hence why we left. Never had many visa issues, was on marriage visas most of the years but even the 90 day reporting started to  feel like a burden, prices up - quality down......and so on........

 

[mike787]

Absolutely it's visa.  Impossible to stay here, but it's also more than just one BIG nail in the coffin, ie, insurance, xenophobia, deadly roads, etc...

[Traubert]

16 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I dont think that he was referring to prostitution 

I wasn't. I was talking about females in general but Mr Max is determined to tell us how superior he is so contorts everything to suit his own purpose. All the refugees from LoS do this. At length. For too long. Go if you're going, Godspeed, good luck, keep the lecture to yourself.

 

I am a Brit and I can tell you that the UK is not a very desirable place to live. Walking the streets alone in darkness is risky by itself.

[Tounge Thaied]

It's interesting how this ThaiVisa forum has inculcated a culture of self-censorship. Orwell's Ministry of Truth has been extended to the general population, beamed into the human psyche. A lexicon, a paradigm of socially engineered mass delusion, of self deprecating behavior enabling our continued enslavement. Will humanity ever be able to free their minds. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Tounge Thaied

[Huckenfell]

On 1/1/2020 at 7:18 PM, oldhippy said:

And after brexit it will only get better 555.

Cheddar and pickled onions in Thailand... OMG.

I make my own pickled onions and get very tasty cheddar at Big C.

[IvorLott]

Some interesting points raised here, though it seems that the increasing stringency of Visa regs, and the strong Baht are the overriding reasons for most leaving.

I have seen a good few older friends forced to depart through the poor exchange rate, simply because over the past five to ten years they have seen their incomes almost halved, and they have seen a decline in the quality of life accordingly; coupled with the increasingly stringent demands placed on them by Immigration, they have simply decided the game isn't worth the candle anymore.

Some, have simply moved elsewhere in SEAsia, those who didn't burn all their bridges in their home countries went back there. I used to have 'expat' friends all over Thailand whom I have met over the years. Now I have very few remaining there. It used to make my working travels around Thailand a joy to be able to look up pals all over the place and catch up, now apart from the odd few scattered around, 

As one who works in Thailand, and has most of my adult life, I am not affected too much by XE rates, nor changes in visa red tape; though its been tough having seen a stream of friends depart the Kingdom, a trickle at first, a comparable flood towards the end, as well as a huge decline in pals from all over the globe who were once regular visitors, though now no longer come or just have short stays 'passing through' en route to ''friendlier' destinations.

This past year, I have been fortunate enough to have been able to have taken a 'year off' while I considered a new contract, to see if I wanted to spend the last decade of my working life in a country seemingly increasingly hostile to people I like and have been my pool of companions (for good or ill) over the years I've had in the Kingdom.

This past year, I'll admit I have missed many, many aspects of life in Thailand, especially the weather.

Nothing stays the same. the 'golden years' of the late 1990s/early 2000s will never return, nor will I see their like again (I'm sure we all have our own 'Golden Years') but Thailand has become 'home' for me, so I have decided to return.

It may be a choice which turns around and bites me on my behind in a few years as they can change the rules at any time, but I'm willing to run that risk, a choice between more time in this grim dump (the UK) or a return to the relative comfort and 'ease' of Thailand is a no brainer.

Towards the end of my last contract, I couldn't wait to go home, as I'd just done the best part of ten years solid in Thailand, during the last few years of that stretch, I seemed to do little else apart from attend farewell parties, help people deal with their personal issues before they left, or being near Suwannaphum, seeing pals off at the airport (14 in my last year!).

I genuinely hope that matters improve as regards visa regulations for retirees and long-termers, as though such things don't concern me yet, they could well do in the future, though I will surely be researching the whole 'retirement thing' as the next decade progresses and my own retirement at 55 crawls closer... 

[oldhippy]

11 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

What happened since, did she get treated overseas, who paid for it and what was the cost when compared to Thailand ? 

Sorry for the late reply.

I asked my Belgian heart surgeon for advise.

He told me that my wife could take the risk of the flight back to Belgium if she took 2 different drugs, and hotel before / after the 12 hour flight.

She then had an operation in Belgium (ablation), paid by the Belgian National Health Insurance.

Net cost for us something like 300 euro. ( + of course the airfare, she was on holiday in Thailand with a non refundable return ticket).

 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by oldhippy
.

[Morty T]

I'm getting close. I'm diabetic, so my mandatory Thai insurance policy ($1100) doesn't cover anything; it's a preexisting condition, and I still have to carry my Cigna policy at $4200 a year. It's the little things like this that ar just irritating. 

[oldhippy]

6 hours ago, FearAndLoathingInLOS said:

 

Can you quote the Thai law that states staying here 9 months or more on tourist visas is illegal ?
Or the law that states "while you're here, you're not allowed to run a business in your own home-country."
I guess that disqualifies manypeople such as Elon Musk, from having a long-term holiday here simply because they have a business to take care of back home.
Or perhaps, you have entered your mid-life crisis and you're jelous of this person having a business back home, or you suffer from alzheimer-disease or schizophrenia or other mental conditions. If that's the case i'd humbly like to apologize, and suggest you to visit a doctor and not read the remainder of this post, I only suggest that you read the rest of this message if none of the medical-conditions are true. There is no law that states "You're allowed to stay here xxx amount of days only if you give up or sell all your businesses or belongings in your home country. They don't really care what you run/own at home, the only important thing is that the decision to grant or deny you entry is at the discretion of the IO (or Immigration Officer)", the only law i know of is that if you happen to stay here more than 180 days you're required to pay your income tax here, instead of your home country regardless of type of VISA.

 

Hope this helps.

Sanemax stayed 9 years = 9 X 12 months

google "months <> years"

google "tourist"

 

Hope this helps.

 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Sanemax stayed 9 years = 9 X 12 months

google "months <> years"

google "tourist"

 

Hope this helps.

 

This was before the new rules came into place 

Not too sure what you mean by your post .

I wont ask , as going by previous posts, you probably dont know what you are trying to say either 

[sanemax]

7 hours ago, madmen said:

And when they move they continue to bitch and moan, I get it ,European and USA Winters are a massive shock to the system after decades in tropical Thailand. I feel sorry for them 

Nice cold 7 degrees weather here in a UK winter .

I was just telling my neighbours today about how horrendous the heat was in Thailand and how unpleasant it was going out between 11 am and 3 PM because the heat was too hot and having to spend that time chilling out in air-con shopping centres to avoid the heat and pollution 

 

[mokwit]

11 hours ago, gaikhao said:

No one with financial assets, and/or social position and/or quality education  has these tales of woe. Not one. In all the years we  have read Thai Visa,  no mentally competent financially stable, law abiding person has had the visa problems described in these long running threads. I have been reading for many years, off and on as I came in and out, and nothing changed.

I have wealthy, educated, friends who held high status positions and are now retired and own property here that they overwinter in. They have high level medical insurance. They are irritated and concerned by the increased visa and reporting requirements and the Thai government deciding how much time they can spend in a property they bought. They also feel unwelcome. To date, the Thai government has not organised a free sticky rice and mango feast for them to reassure them of their welcome.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by mokwit

[4MyEgo]

50 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Sorry for the late reply.

I asked my Belgian heart surgeon for advise.

He told me that my wife could take the risk of the flight back to Belgium if she took 2 different drugs, and hotel before / after the 12 hour flight.

She then had an operation in Belgium (ablation), paid by the Belgian National Health Insurance.

Net cost for us something like 300 euro. ( + of course the airfare, she was on holiday in Thailand with a non refundable return ticket).

 

 

All and good then, got to love the National Health Insurances of our own countries, suffice to say I'm surprised she didn't have to wait to long in Belgium as most non emergency procedures have a waiting list of up to 12 months.

 

Private hospitals are in the business of saving lives and making money at the same time, it's a business, I had an operation back in Sydney, under our National Health Care system, I would have had to wait 12 months (as advised) by the surgeon at the time, or if I went into the private hospital I could have it done within 2-3 weeks, and of course I went into the private hospital as opposed to waiting 12 months, cost 4,000 Euro (converted) for a day procedure, so I hear what your saying, but I am sure if it was life threatening and she couldn't fly then you would have had to support the private hospitals cause, i.e. to save her life and cough load at the same time ????

 

Glad it all worked out for you. 

[SkyFax]

21 minutes ago, mokwit said:

I have wealthy, educated, friends who ....

CUT

Maybe easier to get along in Thailand without such friends.

[oldhippy]

33 minutes ago, sanemax said:

This was before the new rules came into place 

Not too sure what you mean by your post .

I wont ask , as going by previous posts, you probably dont know what you are trying to say either 

Are you saying that the definition of "tourist" changed recently?

[Skallywag]

31 minutes ago, mokwit said:

They are irritated and concerned by the increased visa and reporting requirements

Please explain.

The only "new" reporting requirements I know of is the one page TM-30 that takes 5 minutes to fill out.  

[Gecko123]

12 hours ago, JAFO said:

I would venture to guess that most complaining and leaving are likely near 70 ( many probably older) and expected life to be dirt cheap forever. I would also venture to say that a great many live here on a fixed pension income and the world economy changed and now they are living in poverty and had to cut back on bar nights and drink "Buy 1 get 1 Free Chang". 

 

What did you folks expect? That Thailand wouldn't evolve and change? All the things that the great majority of the posters whinge about to fix, costs money. If it costs the government or retailers money it will always hit the consumer some how. Its really quite simple.

 

Expats coming and going will always happen. So just get on with it and move. ????.

JAFO, I really question if this hypothesis holds water. Why would someone 65+ return to their home country for purely financial reasons when the cost of living in their home country is almost always significantly higher? By most accounts, work around options are still available for those struggling to meet the visa financial requirements. Why wouldn't someone in a financial predicament avail themselves of this option rather than relocate to an even higher cost country in the West?

 

You're also ignoring a whole host of other possible motives for someone 65+ leaving. These include: comparative quality of medical care, long-term care issues, better access to medicare and NHS coverage, the desire to simplify the liquidation process of one's estate, the desire to avoid the stress and worry about possible future changes in visa requirements, an unwillingness to incur the costs of carrying redundant medical insurance, potentially greater convenience, concerns about climate change, concerns about communicating over a language barrier as one grows older, concerns about environmental degradation, pollution and road and personal safety, and - one which rarely gets discussed - a lack of confidence that one's family and social support network or welfare safety net in Thailand is sufficient to effectively manage your medical care and finances in old age or declining health.

 

You rhetorically asked if people expected things to remain the same forever. I'm pretty sure nobody had that expectation. But if someone's finances got blindsided by the Great Recession, the overnight crash of the Pound, or the weakening of the Australian dollar because China's demand for natural resources has dropped, I think that's understandable, and I'm able to empathize with their predicament. I'm not going to judge people because they failed to anticipate these events.

 

My empathy stems from an awareness that the same thing could easily happen to the American dollar. Many leading money managers and economists (Jeffery Gundlach, Peter Schiff, David Rosenberg, Marc Faber, Nouriel Roubini, Peter Gross) believe that because of America's projected ballooning deficits and efforts to reduce the dollar's importance as a trade and reserve currency, a crash in the American dollar is virtually inevitable.

 

Were that to happen, and the USD were to fall to, say, 22 baht/$, an American solely dependent on social security for income would need to receive $2954/month just to meet Thailand's 65,000 baht/mo visa requirement. Were such a crash to occur, it's safe to assume that the 800K deposit requirement would probably be raised as well, possibly by a drastic amount. If you're already confident that you can weather any storm which comes your way, good for you. If not, further preparation may be advisable.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Gecko123

[mokwit]

30 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

TM-30 that takes 5 minutes to fill out.  

So TM 30 was much ado about nothing? My landlady spent an entire weekend trying to register for the app. She then had to travel to CW que up all morning and pay a fine. Seriously idiotic comment by you. BTW there wasn't always enforcement of 90 days. My friends pointed out that nobody at the IO counter at the airport informed them that Thailand was now enforcing a 1979 law that had not been enforced for decades.

 

As for increased visa requirements if they want to stay more than 90 days it seems they will have to travel back to their own country or in future apply for METV or OA - the last has all kind of requirements including visiting a Doctor to get blood tests for certification that they are not suffering from Leprosy, Elephantiasis, tertiary Syphilis or TB. This was not a requirement when they bought their condos. Again, seriously idiotic comment by you.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by mokwit

[Destiny1990]

55 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Nice cold 7 degrees weather here in a UK winter .

I was just telling my neighbours today about how horrendous the heat was in Thailand and how unpleasant it was going out between 11 am and 3 PM because the heat was too hot and having to spend that time chilling out in air-con shopping centres to avoid the heat and pollution 

 

Seems after your departure u became very negative about Thailand but  just a while ago you said Chiang Mai is so much better town then DaNang guess all is changed with you. Even Promoting  the Deleted weather in England ????

[Skallywag]

5 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

Why wouldn't someone in a financial predicament avail themselves of this option rather than relocate to an even higher cost country in the West?

 

You're also ignoring a whole host of other possible motives for someone 65+ leaving. These include: comparative quality of medical care, long-term care issues, better access to medicare and NHS coverage, the desire to simplify the liquidation process of one's estate, the desire to avoid the stress and worry about possible future changes ...... a lack of confidence that one's family and social support network in Thailand is sufficient to effectively manage your medical care and finances in old age or declining health.

 

Yet you just pointed out the Catch-22.  Leaving Thailand to have better and cheaper access to medical care in your home country is great, yet if you cannot afford rent, utilities, food, transportation in your home country,  how is that possible?  

[Skallywag]

10 minutes ago, mokwit said:

So TM 30 was much ado about nothing? My landlady spent an entire weekend trying to register for the app. She then had to travel to CW que up all morning and pay a fine. Seriously idiotic comment by you.

 

As for increased visa requirements if they want to stay more than 90 days it seems they will have to travel back to their own country or in future apply for METV or OA... Again, seriously idiotic comment by you.

Wow - being called idiotic twice. How nice of you 555.

Takes me 10 minutes by bike to ride to Jomtien and submit my TM-30.  Idiotic, because I don't own a motorbike and have to pedal the darn thing, could save myself 5 minutes or so with a motor

Yes other people live much further than this idiot from their local immigration.

No worries, those idiots can submit their TM-30 at local police station. 

I was an idiot and got a Non-Imm O visa to begin with.

Most idiots like me plan ahead when they are moving to a foreign country and do the right thing. 

Such as: check the Thai Embassy website and Contact your home countries Thai Consulate.  Then you would discover that the Non-Imm O-A has onerous requirements, and opt for the Non-Imm O

 

[Gecko123]

26 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

Yet you just pointed out the Catch-22.  Leaving Thailand to have better and cheaper access to medical care in your home country is great, yet if you cannot afford rent, utilities, food, transportation in your home country,  how is that possible?  

You've conflated the point I was making in my first paragraph with the point I was making in the second paragraph.

 

In the first paragraph I questioned why someone would exit Thailand because of financial reasons when the cost of living is invariably higher back home and in most other countries.

 

In the second paragraph I enumerated non-financial motives people might have for leaving Thailand. I never said people who leave Thailand for other-than-financial motives couldn't afford the cost of living back home.

 

Also your abridging and editing of my post did a hatchet job on its readability which was not appreciated.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Gecko123

[mokwit]

25 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

No worries, those idiots can submit their TM-30 at local police station. 

Apparently people have tried this to avoid a 60km journey and been met with blank stares.

 

I gather consuls/embassies are only issuing single entry (90 day) Non O now, so an additional visa is needed to stay over winter unless you as an overwinterer i.e not someone "moving to a foreign country") want to deposit 800k/maintain 400k or transfer 65k/month in the year prior (impossible with April introduction and no guarantee of adherence to the "leniency" that was promised). Previously multiple entry tourist visas or 1 yr non O were available.

 

All these people extrapolating how oh so easy for everyone it is when they live in a small town where most live within walking distance of an immigration office that is not swamped with applicants.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by mokwit

[Destiny1990]

14 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Apparently people have tried this to avoid a 60km journey and been met with blank stares.

 

I gather consuls/embassies are only issuing single entry (90 day) Non O now, so an additional visa is needed to stay over winter unless you as an overwinterer i.e not someone "moving to a foreign country") want to deposit 800k/maintain 400k or transfer 65k/month in the year prior (impossible with April introduction and no guarantee of adherence to the "leniency" that was promised). Previously multiple entry tourist visas or 1 yr non O were available.

 

All these people extrapolating how oh so easy for everyone it is when they live in a small town where most live within walking distance of an immigration office that is not swamped with applicants.

 

Landowners pointing to their tenants and tenants pointing to their landowners for to get the TM30 done.

Very annoying situation to get mixed up in and in the end expats are fed up !!

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Landowners pointing to their tenants and tenants pointing to their landowners for to get the TM30 done.

Very annoying situation to get mixed up in and in the end expats are fed up !!

For me, Immigration refusing to give an extension because a Landlord had not filled THEIR obligation under the law was the tipping point.

[NightSky]

23 hours ago, Skallywag said:

What "things" cost more?  Not my electric bill, not my cell phone/internet, not my food, not my clothing, not my laundry, not my dates, not my health insurance (from USA)....  and I don't need a car here, huge savings.

Foods like lasagna, pizza, tacos, and beef hamburgers/steaks are cheaper elsewhere. Fruits like cherries or peaches are cheaper in other countries, but that is about it AFAIK.  Could you elaborate please?

Everything you mentioned except electricity (power) is cheaper in the UK than in Thailand, for me it is anyhow. The only reason electric is more is because of required heating.

 

the quality of everything is also better in the UK except for arguably dates ???? although I’m married and therefore irrelevant to me right now.

 

im currently on a winter break over in the uk and the wife cannot believe how cheap everything is.

Edited January 3, 2020 by NightSky

[BobinBKK]

Personally I don't care for the general negative attitude Thais have for foreigners. There are far more good hearted genuine and honest foreigners in Thailand than bad ones. The government does nothing but make a public display of catching the bad ones and patting itself on the back. This is all the general public sees about us. What's even worse is the laws are not enforced to protect us and they continuously make things more difficult for us to stay here by tracking our every move. Dual pricing, racism, signage reading "Thais only", senior discounts for Thais only, the list goes on and on. We bring in great deal of money into this country and spending into the local economy. Our individual governments giving monetary foreign aid packages to Thailand that we pay taxes for to support. All we ask for is to live here in peace, be treated with dignity and respect and be treated fairly by all Thai citizens. Speaking frankly, we don't need Thailand, Thailand needs us. Many have left Thailand and many more are choosing not to come here in the first place. There are too many more welcoming options for us. 

[JAFO]

4 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

JAFO, I really question if this hypothesis holds water.

Howdy Gecko,

I didn't want quote your entire response but my point being it has grown very old of reading all these folks posts that come on here and complain at the top of their lungs about all that's bad here. Does that some how make them feel better? Is it really that bad? I think not. I have found that the westerners I have met and known that left, moved here with little to no plan. However as time has gone on they go on and on to complain about how terrible this place is. How the immigration is a farce, how Thais hate them, how people are mean etc. Do these posters ever step back and look in the mirror and wonder if its them? 

 

I respect that this just didn't work out for them. Such as life. Forums usually attract an audience that typically wants to complain, its the nature of the beast. As you and I have seen when someone posts how their life is going well, they live comfortably, have no immigration issues etc the thread dies quickly or they get negative responses about being smug or braggarts. Is it because some adapted and had a plan and they didn't?

 

Moving abroad takes careful consideration for all the concerns you noted in your post. I still suspect that many posters moved here on a whim or something close to it and while maybe their first 5 to 10 years were Ok, times are changing and like anywhere one must adapt. If not then those same people will be come their own worst enemy and their constant complaining will become cancerous and all consuming like it appears to have happened to many.

 

So as I stated earlier, Expats will come and go, they do in every country. I respect and understand that but just get on with it. Don't complain looking for some sort of validation that its the same for everyone as its not. ????

 

Cheers and Happy New Year

[RyanWalker]

16 hours ago, gaikhao said:

Much unfounded nonsense in this thread.  Yes, some western people of limited financial means or with criminal records, or of questionable morality, or engaged in gray/black market activity have departed Thailand. So what? Thousands of monied investors have taken their place. Thailand  welcomes thousands of Asians who are spending more per capita than these small number of down on their luck westerners ever spent. That is the reality and too many westerners are shocked to discover it when they meet it. No one with financial assets, and/or social position and/or quality education  has these tales of woe. Not one. In all the years we  have read Thai Visa,  no mentally competent financially stable, law abiding person has had the visa problems described in these long running threads. I have been reading for many years, off and on as I came in and out, and nothing changed. 

 

Then I guess you have lived under a rock for 20 years????