Digital Nomads, is it allowed or still illegal

[LivinLOS]

22 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Your "proof" is a website which probably made the stuff up, you didn't post even one official or independently confirmable proof.

Each quote is clearly attributed to the officials who gave it.. Labour dept, employment office, etc etc etc.. 

 

Not 'mate down the pub' or even 'immigration dont care' but the actual people in charge of labour law and work permits. 

[LivinLOS]

25 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you think you are right look for a random coworking space no Google, then take your phone, call 1178 and inform immigration police about people working there. Shouldn't take too long until we will have news about foreigners in a coworking space having been arrested for working online.

But theres no 'proof' of work in that situation, only proof of computer use.. Co-working space is just a name for a fancy internet cafe.. 

 

Better.. Any online worker who says it is legal, lets actually document all your work, show yourself verifiably working, show your clients and payments, and state on record you dont need a work permit, and lets put that in.. I mean, its legal right ?? 

Edited January 13, 2020 by LivinLOS

[jackdd]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

But theres no 'proof' of work in that situation, only proof of computer use.. Co-working space is just a name for a fancy internet cafe.. 

Don't worry, upon interrogation some people will confirm that they worked online.

 

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Better.. Any online worker who says it is legal, lets actually document all your work, show yourself verifiably working, show your clients and payments, and state on record you dont need a work permit, and lets put that in.. I mean, its legal right ?? 

Understandably nobody would do this in a country where you could be arrested for washing your own car.

Are you not able to make a 5 minute phone call?

 

7 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I said the vast majority of 'digital nomads' dont... And I would add to that the vast majority of nomads who complain about visa issues, or post on Thai visa, are not nomads all all.. They are simply resident online tax evaders.. 

Actually everybody who i know who is working online has a registered company and is paying his tax according to the laws in the countries concerned, i don't know a single tax evader. I acknowledge that they probably exist, but they are the minority.

[Happy Grumpy]

33 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I said the vast majority of 'digital nomads' dont..

(pay tax)

 

 

You do know that is simply speculation on your part? 

[LivinLOS]

23 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

(pay tax)

 

 

You do know that is simply speculation on your part? 

Having spoken to 100s.. Not a single one who didnt have a work permit went and paid it.. So a fair guess I would say. 

[LivinLOS]

47 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Actually everybody who i know who is working online has a registered company and is paying his tax according to the laws in the countries concerned, i don't know a single tax evader. I acknowledge that they probably exist, but they are the minority.

Thats not how this works.. Thats not how any of this works.. 

 

You dont get to choose your tax jurisdiction.. The Laws determine it. Thailand has a 'day 1' taxation system based upon the physical presence test. 

Anyone who pays tax in other jurisdictions can then (usually) claim any payment elsewhere, or offset other liabilities there, back, under DTA agreements. 

[beano2274]

Guys stop the bickering

 

I see it that working as a Digital Nomad is still a grey area, so therefore illegal.

 

The post is not about myself but a work colleague who wants to stay in Thailand for a year and work there online, will be dodging tax in my opinion. And since this person is not the quiet type will be telling everyone that they work online for a European company, so there is another issue.

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Thats not how this works.. Thats not how any of this works.. 

 

You dont get to choose your tax jurisdiction.. The Laws determine it. Thailand has a 'day 1' taxation system based upon the physical presence test. 

Anyone who pays tax in other jurisdictions can then (usually) claim any payment elsewhere, or offset other liabilities there, back, under DTA agreements. 

Thailand only taxes income if it's brought into Thailand in the year it's earned.

Me, and everybody else who i know, just bring savings from previous years into Thailand, which means no tax to pay in Thailand.

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, Martyp said:

Given that digital nomad work is a grey area I would not advertise that that is what you are doing. Keep it as quiet as possible. If you are not on a long term visa or extension of stay then your next biggest problem will be being questioned by Immigration as to how you are supporting yourself if you are spending a lot of time in Thailand. Obviously “ digital nomad” is not the correct answer.
 

Are you under/over 50 years old? How long do you think you will be here?

 

 I had a friend, in his 60’s, who was consulting online with his former employer in the US. He was getting paid in the US. When he broke up with his Thai girlfriend his ex’s friends threatened to expose him to Immigration for working without a work permit. So he quit his online job and of course lost this additional income from that job. Whether he had to do this or not he didn’t know. He got scared into quitting. The point of that anecdote is to point out that you should be careful who you talk to about your “work”.

A legitimate tourist here for a short time has nothing to worry about.

There is no grey area, it isn't allowed.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Martyp said:

Given that digital nomad work is a grey area I would not advertise that that is what you are doing. Keep it as quiet as possible. If you are not on a long term visa or extension of stay then your next biggest problem will be being questioned by Immigration as to how you are supporting yourself if you are spending a lot of time in Thailand. Obviously “ digital nomad” is not the correct answer.
 

Are you under/over 50 years old? How long do you think you will be here?

 

 I had a friend, in his 60’s, who was consulting online with his former employer in the US. He was getting paid in the US. When he broke up with his Thai girlfriend his ex’s friends threatened to expose him to Immigration for working without a work permit. So he quit his online job and of course lost this additional income from that job. Whether he had to do this or not he didn’t know. He got scared into quitting. The point of that anecdote is to point out that you should be careful who you talk to about your “work”.

A legitimate tourist here for a short time has nothing to worry about.

Well said .. the key take away here is "Shut your pie hole."  I remember a few years back, Bangkok had a SERIOUS crackdown,  Suddenly, there was a flock of a new type of taxi driver.  Young, sharp, black Tee shirt, PERFECT English.  Ans always a "friendly" ... "do you work here?"  Folks .. this ain't rocket science ... Just follow the first rule of Fight Club.  Pick a reply, and use it 100% of the time.  In all situations .. so no one can grab ya by the short hairs.

[Don Mega]

5 hours ago, glegolo said:

BUT there is a huge benefit to Thailand by i.e. digal nomad working in Thailand. The income from that work, is most often being spent in Thailand, so that money is going directly into the economy here.......

 

 

 

And if that income in brought into Thailand in the same year it was earned personal income tax should be paid on it..... thats my understanding atleast.

[acenase]

5 hours ago, glegolo said:

BUT there is a huge benefit to Thailand by i.e. digal nomad working in Thailand. The income from that work, is most often being spent in Thailand, so that money is going directly into the economy here.......

 

 

Immigration thinks differently. They don’t trust those people will spend it back in the economy. They just think you are making money by living for cheap and not paying taxes so that is bad. No matter what you think the excuse is to justify making money while in Thailand on a tourist visa, if they find out you are in Thailand and doing work even if it’s out of the country, they would consider that employment and employment is prohibited with a tourist visa and use their powers to do whatever they want to do about it.

[Don Mega]

37 minutes ago, acenase said:

Immigration thinks differently. They don’t trust those people will spend it back in the economy. They just think you are making money by living for cheap and not paying taxes so that is bad. No matter what you think the excuse is to justify making money while in Thailand on a tourist visa, if they find out you are in Thailand and doing work even if it’s out of the country, they would consider that employment and employment is prohibited with a tourist visa and use their powers to do whatever they want to do about it.

If the nomad lives in Thailand for a period(s) aggregating 180 days or more in a single calendar year they are classed as a "resident" and are liable to pay income tax on any income earned be it local or abroad.

 

Not sure how that works if one is scum bagging it on visa exempt stamps and extensions though.

[theonetrueaussie]

3 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

If the nomad lives in Thailand for a period(s) aggregating 180 days or more in a single calendar year they are classed as a "resident" and are liable to pay income tax on any income earned be it local or abroad.

 

Not sure how that works if one is scum bagging it on visa exempt stamps and extensions though.

This is incorrect....You only pay income tax on foreign sourced income if you BRING it into thailand. If however you deposit it in an overseas bank account then you do not have to pay income tax in thailand on it according to the lawyers i have seen here in the past. 

Is it illegal to be a digital nomad in thailand, short answer yes. you do have options, you can go to an immigration lawyer and for 50k thb upfront and then 9k thb month get a work permit and all the paperwork done with extensions every 3 months...but again how legal this is no one really knows and that is the problem here there is no official legal way for digital nomads to live here long term.

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

If the nomad lives in Thailand for a period(s) aggregating 180 days or more in a single calendar year they are classed as a "resident" and are liable to pay income tax on any income earned be it local or abroad.

A digital nomad doesn't earn local income, and only income which is brought from abroad in the year in which it is earned is subject to tax in Thailand. Everybody who knows a little bit about the tax situation in Thailand will only bring savings from previous years into Thailand.

[Don Mega]

5 minutes ago, theonetrueaussie said:

This is incorrect....You only pay income tax on foreign sourced income if you BRING it into thailand. If however you deposit it in an overseas bank account then you do not have to pay income tax in thailand on it according to the lawyers i have seen here in the past. 

.

 

5 minutes ago, jackdd said:

A digital nomad doesn't earn local income, and only income which is brought from abroad in the year in which it is earned is subject to tax in Thailand. Everybody who knows a little bit about the tax situation in Thailand will only bring savings from previous years into Thailand.

Well yes it was implied they are bringing the money into the country.... how many Nomads are that flush with cash they can earn abroad and just park it for 12 months or more ?

but thanks for confirming the content of my post.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Don Mega

[phantomfiddler]

If you are conducting any form of business on the internet the Thai Authorities will construe it as working. However, tell absolutely no-one and you will be reasonably safe. There exists a despicable sub-human form called "police informers", who actually get a percentage of the fines imposed on people found working in this manner, so keep it quiet ????

[ThaiBunny]

11 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

There exists a despicable sub-human form called "police informers",

Tax authorities all round the world are grateful for such informers, who often constitute people who went to dinner with someone who couldn't stop boasting about how clever he was in not paying his taxes (while they were paying theirs)

Edited January 13, 2020 by ThaiBunny

[Nobody55]

There are several expat vlogers on Youtube with many followers and views so they get paid for their videos, I wonder if these people can be considered as illegal workers ????

[ChiangMaiNomad]

Being a digital nomad, or digital/remote professional, is not illegal if you get a visa and work permit through a company like Shelter 

 

With how easy the application process is nowadays (if you meet the minimum requirements on their website), there is really no reason to run the risk of working on an ED visa or tourist visa.

[jackinbangkok]

I know of one service my young digital nomad friend avails successfully and is in Thailand since yrs called GENtres ( search on google for their site ) . Such services are allowed BUt with Work visa same as Thai Elite Visa is for long term tourists 

[Airalee]

I side with posters such as LivinLOS and Don Mega.

 

I have met quite a few “digital nomads” and have also seen countless “a day in the life of a digital nomad” type videos on YouTube.  This is what I usually seem to encounter.

 

With very few exceptions, with regards to the ones I have met in person, most can’t seem to be able to tell me precisely what it is that they do.  They will vaguely talk about blockchain, crypto, copy writing, SEO, affiliate marketing and on and on.  I even met an “online poker player” from Scotland once.  When pressed for more information they become visually flustered, evasive with their answers and ultimately change the subject.

 

Most appear to live on a shoestring budget, are frequently strapped for cash and hardly can be considered to be “contributing to the Thai economy”.  None of them (with one exception) had an appropriate visa or work permit.  Education visas seem to be the visa of choice for said nomads, as they know the days of never ending border runs/tourist visas are over.  Every one seems to have grandiose visions of future success.

 

The YouTube digital nomads love to show off their “sabai sabai” Thai lifestyle which frequently seems to focus on how cheap it is to live in Thailand.  They give tours of their ฿4,000 apartments, tell us about the motorbike (usually a beat up Honda Wave) they rent for ฿1,500/month, and let us know where the best ฿30 meals can be had.  They do seem to drink expensive coffee drinks however.

 

I highly doubt that most digital nomads make enough money to pay taxes here.  I’m sure that there are successful digital nomads but I would wager that they are a fraction of the total amount.

[LivinLOS]

18 minutes ago, Nobody55 said:

There are several expat vlogers on Youtube with many followers and views so they get paid for their videos, I wonder if these people can be considered as illegal workers ????

Already covered a few posts back.. Depends on if your actively uploading / commenting / promoting or just here collecting prior uploads residuals. 

Also the My Mate Nate case clearly showed one is needed, hut in a great bit of face saving they discovered a 6 month amnesty in the precise time he was challenged. Giving him time to incorporate.

 

 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/is-uploading-videos-to-youtube-considered-work  
Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work?

I have a YouTube channel showing a video diary of my travels around Thailand – promoting the country and activities here.

I am trying to understand what laws I need to be aware of in relation to my current and past activities. Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work? Does it matter if I have YouTube ads turned on or off?

I have many other videos on my channel, which I made 100 per cent outside Thailand – before my arrival. If I have ads turned on and am being paid for these past activities while I am in the Kingdom, is this considered work?

Concerned vlogger, Thailand.

No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free. However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.

Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO).

[LivinLOS]

44 minutes ago, jackdd said:

A digital nomad doesn't earn local income, and only income which is brought from abroad in the year in which it is earned is subject to tax in Thailand. Everybody who knows a little bit about the tax situation in Thailand will only bring savings from previous years into Thailand.

Partly correct.. It is tax free if it is savings, from prior work. 

Active Income, income earned from performing work, is taxed fully.. No matter remitted or not remitted... Otherwise everyone would just be paid offshore and no one would be due income tax fully legally. 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

50 minutes ago, theonetrueaussie said:

 and that is the problem here there is no official legal way for digital nomads to live here long term.

Iglu or Shelter.. Both offer the red carpet legal version. 

 

Of course suddenly all those resident tax evaders who say 'if only there was a legal way' suddenly when faced with the legal way, have a change of heart... 

[LivinLOS]

24 minutes ago, jackinbangkok said:

I know of one service my young digital nomad friend avails successfully and is in Thailand since yrs called GENtres ( search on google for their site ) . Such services are allowed BUt with Work visa same as Thai Elite Visa is for long term tourists 

Nice... Another service to add to the list.. GENtres, Shelter, Iglu.. 

Theres another bangkok based one I saw and didnt pay attention or bookmark as well. 

[LivinLOS]

18 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I highly doubt that most digital nomads make enough money to pay taxes here.  I’m sure that there are successful digital nomads but I would wager that they are a fraction of the total amount.

There are a few but as you say a tiny fraction and I hazard that most of the real earners (say 10k usd and up a month) get better value for money in europe or developed countries and certainly are not posting looking for the 'best 4k studio room' etc which fills most of the nomad groups on FB. Its also incredible how many broke vloggers there are telling other people how to be vloggers, and explaining in painful detail how vlogging to aspiring vloggers is the 'new work'.. 

 

Digital nomad has simply become more fashionable to say than gap year.. So only a tiny fraction are established legitimate entrepreneurs who might consider cost effective legal solutions.

 

On the other hand there are many more expats, who are almost entirely non nomadic have scraped out online incomes teaching language, seo, copywriting or the other mundane lower paid freelance drudgework as a means to stay here. Those guys so often are simply not in a position to pay much income tax or 'legality levy' as they are so close to breadline in high competition / insecure market niches. There are a LOT of those guys and they are simply breaking Thai labour law, evading tax, and living here, nothing nomadic in the procedure at all. 

 

 

[khunPer]

12 hours ago, beano2274 said:

If it is now allowed how does someone apply for a WP.

If illegal then just say so.

It's a gray-zone, not allowed, and in principle kind of illegal; but some important people has mentioned that it's also possible.

 

You can only apply for a WP as employed in a Thai registered company, or in a Thai owned business; you cannot obtain a WP as individual or self-employed.

 

To my knowledge digital nomads – working single and doing business for overseas clients only – simply perform their duties under the radar, and they don't talk (too much) about it; and they might well stay on an Elite Card visa, officially living from off shore savings.

 

If you on holiday on a tourist visa and do some remote work for the company your work for abroad, or as self employed, nobody really cares. But if you are staying long term, repeatedly using tourists visas more than 180 days a year, immigration might get suspicious and not allow you in.

[Airalee]

18 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

There are a few but as you say a tiny fraction and I hazard that most of the real earners (say 10k usd and up a month) get better value for money in europe or developed countries and certainly are not posting looking for the 'best 4k studio room' etc which fills most of the nomad groups on FB. Its also incredible how many broke vloggers there are telling other people how to be vloggers, and explaining in painful detail how vlogging to aspiring vloggers is the 'new work'.. 

 

Digital nomad has simply become more fashionable to say than gap year.. So only a tiny fraction are established legitimate entrepreneurs who might consider cost effective legal solutions.

 

On the other hand there are many more expats, who are almost entirely non nomadic have scraped out online incomes teaching language, seo, copywriting or the other mundane lower paid freelance drudgework as a means to stay here. Those guys so often are simply not in a position to pay much income tax or 'legality levy' as they are so close to breadline in high competition / insecure market niches. There are a LOT of those guys and they are simply breaking Thai labour law, evading tax, and living here, nothing nomadic in the procedure at all. 

 

 

You set the bar much higher than myself as far as “real earners”.  I would consider a real earner someone who nets (after paying for a service such as Igloo) whatever is required for someone on a “retirement” visa.

 

Most of the people I have met are the non-nomadic type in their 20s and 30s.  The few that weren’t scraping by appeared to come from wealthy locales so perhaps they had received an inheritance or had a trust fund but still felt the need to “do something productive”.   If that is the case then I don’t know why they wouldn’t utilize the services of a company like Igloo.  Many would be better off just becoming English teachers for 30k+/month. 

[glegolo]

26 minutes ago, Nanaplaza666 said:

Seems like it went right over your head as well calling them corrupt bastards complaining and whininig , if your not happy with the way things work in the country your let in to , just leave to wherever you came from as it seems that everything is better there . Some people sound like refugees that flee to a country ,get free money, aducation and wellfare and a roof over their heads and then complain about the way they are treated . If your not happy just leave !!! 

Yeah that kind of living your own life seems to fit you, but I think I prefer to solve the problem at hand and go on in my own life....

 

Sorry no leaving here..

 

glegolo