Condo committee. New Members

[Bill007]

Hello All

 

At our  building condominium AGM held in April of 2019 the buildings co-owners elected for 9 committee members to represent them and we also had 9 valid committee members standing so all 9 got dully elected.

 

Over the past 3 months 3 of them have resigned.

 

The remaining 6 have decided to not allow other candidates to stand at this years AGM to replace those whom resigned.

 

I personally believe this to possibly be unlawful and in contradiction to the condo act in that the Co owners voted for 9 in the AGM of April 2019 and if any resign then surely the duty of the remaining committee is to ask for possible replacements at this years upcoming AGM.

 

Any views on this matter from knowledgeable persons on this subject would be very much appreciated.

 

Thank you 

 

 

[smutcakes]

Unfortunately i believe its not covered directly enough in the law, and possibly no definite wrong or right answer. I think you would have difficulty arguing successfully that they simply have to replace them, and as they are the Committee they will have the final decision. Six is not a great number being even. Personally i prefer 5 or 7, 5 if they are sensible and diligent.  No where in the law does it state if Committee members vacate before their term then it is necessary to replace them.

 

Section 37 (para 2) of the Condo Act deals with this scenario to some extent and seems to indicate in its wording that it is not necessary to appoint new members if board members vacate. It says 'if' new members replacing vacating members are appointed they will hold term only for the length of time as the existing members.

 

I think it would be very difficult for you to argue successfully that it was a necessity.

[Bill007]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bill007
not needed

[Bill007]

Thank you for your reply

 

My reasoning on the matter is that - In the 2019 AGM co-owners voted for 9 committee members to represent them and that should stand and be cast in stone.

 

As 3 that have now resigned I would have thought it more than just a duty to at least ask co-owners to vote to elect and try to replace those 3 at this years AGM. Surely they have to uphold the 2019 vote on this.

 

Another 2 points are that of the 6 remaining 2 are husband and wife which could be seem as a conflict of interests although I understand there is unfortunately nothing from what I can see in the condo act to prevent this from happening.

This couple are also only here over the winter months so for 6 months of the year we will be down to just 4 committee members.

 

With this in mind I think I have a good case that the committee must ask for new members at this years AGM.

 

 

 

 

 

[smutcakes]

6 minutes ago, Bill007 said:

Thank you for your reply

 

My reasoning on the matter is that - In the 2019 AGM co-owners voted for 9 committee members to represent them and that should stand and be cast in stone.

 

As 3 that have now resigned I would have thought it more than just a duty to at least ask co-owners to vote to elect and try to replace those 3 at this years AGM. Surely they have to uphold the 2019 vote on this.

 

Another 2 points are that of the 6 remaining 2 are husband and wife which could be seem as a conflict of interests although I understand there is unfortunately nothing from what I can see in the condo act to prevent this from happening.

This couple are also only here over the winter months so for 6 months of the year we will be down to just 4 committee members.

 

With this in mind I think I have a good case that the committee must ask for new members at this years AGM.

 

 

 

 

 

Not disagreeing with you, i just think you will find that there is no caste in stone regulation which says their needs to be 9 all the time. I think you will just have a devil of a job trying to fight that there is and will eventually not go very far. In practical terms if people left the Committee every few months or so, you could get into a situation where you were forever calling General meetings.

 

Regarding the couple, only one person from each unit can be on the Committee, so you should check they have 2 units which they are both registered owners of. Final para of Clause 37/1. You could also gently inquire whether they are officially married. If they are common law husband and wife and not registered then one of them is not a legal spouse. From a legal perspective it makes no difference if members are not there very often, they are still owners and have the same right to be on the Committee even if the are never there.

 

I think from some perspective you have a semi decent case, but from a legal perspective you do not really, unless in the vote where you specified 9 persons it was included that at all times there must be 9. If in doubt and not stipulated in your regs you fall back on the Act which supersedes condo regulations. In the Act is does not stipulate you need to appoint new members to replace vacating ones and as such i dont think you have much of a case sadly.

[Peterw42]

10 minutes ago, Bill007 said:

Thank you for your reply

 

My reasoning on the matter is that - In the 2019 AGM co-owners voted for 9 committee members to represent them and that should stand and be cast in stone.

 

As 3 that have now resigned I would have thought it more than just a duty to at least ask co-owners to vote to elect and try to replace those 3 at this years AGM. Surely they have to uphold the 2019 vote on this.

 

Another 2 points are that of the 6 remaining 2 are husband and wife which could be seem as a conflict of interests although I understand there is unfortunately nothing from what I can see in the condo act to prevent this from happening.

This couple are also only here over the winter months so for 6 months of the year we will be down to just 4 committee members.

 

With this in mind I think I have a good case that the committee must ask for new members at this years AGM.

 

 

 

 

 

They defiantly cannot have husband and wife, who own one condo, each on the committee. The act specifically states one committee member for one condo. 

Section 37/1

n the case where any unit’s ownership holder consist of several joint owners, only one person shall be eligible for an appointment as committee

[meinphuket]

A condo committee, by law, is comprised of 3, 5, 7 or max 9 members. There can be no even numbers to prevent deadlocks and collusion. An extraordinary AGM must be called forthwith, since any decisions taken in the current situation are unlawful, and as a consequence  invalid and unenforceable. The law overrides any decision taken by the committee or JPM.

[meinphuket]

Apropos the husband and wife; that is also against the law if the wife is a co-owner.

[AlQaholic]

I myself is a committee member in a condominium.

According the Condominium Act, the committee should have at least 3 members and a maximum of 9 members. The committee cannot create condominium regulations that are in conflict with the condominium act and which are not voted upon at an A.G.M. Anyone that is a co-owner or spouse of a co-owner, can stand for election as committee member at the A.G.M. The committee members hold office for two years, after which they will stand down and stand for election at the A.G.M. again or not according their own wishes. A committee member cannot hold office for more than two consecutive terms, i.e. 4 consecutive years maximum. After two consecutive terms they must stand down and not stand for re-election. If there are only three members of the committee, the members must continue to serve even beyond the 4 year maximum term if no new co-owner stands for election at the A.G.M. They can of course resign at any time at which point there will be no legal juristic person and the condominium will fail as a legal entity.

 

To answer the question, The committee members hold office for two years, after that they have to be re-elected at the A.G.M. At this years A.G.M., If there are vacant seats in the committee, any co-owner has the right to stand for election for any vacant seat. The law is very clear on this. Additionally, a group of co-owners holding 20% voting rights can call an Extraordinary General Meeting with their own agenda.

NOTE!, Again, to make it completely clear, the committee must resign en-mass every two years and submit to re-election at the A.G.M. If a new member is elected replacing a member that resigned between the two year period, the new member serves the same period as the resigned member, meaning he/she must resign together with the other members at the two year limit.

Edited January 30, 2020 by AlQaholic

[tinca tinca]

the Juristic Person, should be aware of ALL law/regs regarding this.....why not have a word with him/her??

[AlQaholic]

On 1/29/2020 at 9:18 AM, Bill007 said:

Another 2 points are that of the 6 remaining 2 are husband and wife which could be seem as a conflict of interests although I understand there is unfortunately nothing from what I can see in the condo act to prevent this from happening.

 

This is covered in section 37.1 (1) and (3) in the condominium act, only one person from each co-owner entity can be member of the committee, meaning that either the husband or the wife can be a member, but not both. For example, if a two units are owned on paper by the husband, either the husband or the wife can be in the committee. On the other hand, if one unit is owned by the husband and the other by the wife, on paper, both can be in the committee as i understand, but this gets tricky I will admit.

Edited January 30, 2020 by AlQaholic

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, meinphuket said:

A condo committee, by law, is comprised of 3, 5, 7 or max 9 members. There can be no even numbers to prevent deadlocks and collusion. An extraordinary AGM must be called forthwith, since any decisions taken in the current situation are unlawful, and as a consequence  invalid and unenforceable. The law overrides any decision taken by the committee or JPM.

Nonsense. Its between 3-9 inclusive, no rule about it being an even number. Logic suggests that it is best to be an odd number for obvious reasons but there is no law saying it cannot be 4-6-8. This is the exact reason why Condo's end up in conflict, when people spout with surety on subjects they clearly are not knowledgeable. Can you point out which law states this? I presume you know given your sureness of reply.

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, AlQaholic said:

I myself is a committee member in a condominium.

According the Condominium Act, the committee should have at least 3 members and a maximum of 9 members. The committee cannot create condominium regulations that are in conflict with the condominium act and which are not voted upon at an A.G.M. Anyone that is a co-owner or spouse of a co-owner, can stand for election as committee member at the A.G.M. The committee members hold office for two years, after which they will stand down and stand for election at the A.G.M. again or not according their own wishes. A committee member cannot hold office for more than two consecutive terms, i.e. 4 consecutive years maximum. After two consecutive terms they must stand down and not stand for re-election. If there are only three members of the committee, the members must continue to serve even beyond the 4 year maximum term if no new co-owner stands for election at the A.G.M. They can of course resign at any time at which point there will be no legal juristic person and the condominium will fail as a legal entity.

 

To answer the question, The committee members hold office for two years, after that they have to be re-elected at the A.G.M. At this years A.G.M., If there are vacant seats in the committee, any co-owner has the right to stand for election for any vacant seat. The law is very clear on this. Additionally, a group of co-owners holding 20% voting rights can call an Extraordinary General Meeting with their own agenda.

NOTE!, Again, to make it completely clear, the committee must resign en-mass every two years and submit to re-election at the A.G.M. If a new member is elected replacing a member that resigned between the two year period, the new member serves the same period as the resigned member, meaning he/she must resign together with the other members at the two year limit.

I agree with most of your post but i don't understand your bit in bold? The Committee is a different role and different legal position than the Juristic Person Manager. If the Committee all resigns you have no Committee, you still have a Juristic Person Manager. Your Juristic Person Manager and all Committee members but you are still a Condominium Juristic person, albeit an extremely rudderless one. The only way to dissolve a Juristic Condominium is via 100% unanimous vote by all Co-owners, which would be next to impossible in probably 99.999% of Condominiums.

[Beggar]

2 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

A committee member cannot hold office for more than two consecutive terms, i.e. 4 consecutive years maximum. After two consecutive terms they must stand down and not stand for re-election. If there are only three members of the committee, the members must continue to serve even beyond the 4 year maximum term if no new co-owner stands for election at the A.G.M.

 

We have 6 members in our committee and they have been there for at least 8 years without interruption. How can this legally be? I know the regulation that you described. But is there a legal way to avoid it? The members of our committee all do business in our condominium complex and so they are very interested to keep the control. They rent out rooms. 

[meinphuket]

1 hour ago, Beggar said:

We have 6 members in our committee and they have been there for at least 8 years without interruption. How can this legally be? I know the regulation that you described. But is there a legal way to avoid it? The members of our committee all do business in our condominium complex and so they are very interested to keep the control. They rent out rooms. 

They need to stand down after 2 years. If no one else is a candidate they may be re-elected by the other owners during the AGM. There should be 3,5,7 or 9 max. No even numbers. 

[meinphuket]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Nonsense. Its between 3-9 inclusive, no rule about it being an even number. Logic suggests that it is best to be an odd number for obvious reasons but there is no law saying it cannot be 4-6-8. This is the exact reason why Condo's end up in conflict, when people spout with surety on subjects they clearly are not knowledgeable. Can you point out which law states this? I presume you know given your sureness of reply.

Read the condominium act, revised. Not the old, first version..

[meinphuket]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

I agree with most of your post but i don't understand your bit in bold? The Committee is a different role and different legal position than the Juristic Person Manager. If the Committee all resigns you have no Committee, you still have a Juristic Person Manager. Your Juristic Person Manager and all Committee members but you are still a Condominium Juristic person, albeit an extremely rudderless one. The only way to dissolve a Juristic Condominium is via 100% unanimous vote by all Co-owners, which would be next to impossible in probably 99.999% of Condominiums.

Rudderless and operating illegally if no committee exists.

[smutcakes]

37 minutes ago, meinphuket said:

Read the condominium act, revised. Not the old, first version..

I have many times and I quote section 37 below:

 

"Section 37 There shall be a Condominium Corporate Committee consisting of members of not less than three persons but not exceeding nine persons appointed by the Joint Owner General Meeting.

The members shall hold office for two years each term. In the case where a member vacates office prior to the expiration of term or a member is additionally appointed during which the members having already been appointed still have a term in office, the member so appointed to take place or in addition shall have a term in office equivalent to the remaining term in office of the members having already been appointed."

[AlQaholic]

22 hours ago, smutcakes said:

I agree with most of your post but i don't understand your bit in bold? The Committee is a different role and different legal position than the Juristic Person Manager. If the Committee all resigns you have no Committee, you still have a Juristic Person Manager. Your Juristic Person Manager and all Committee members but you are still a Condominium Juristic person, albeit an extremely rudderless one. The only way to dissolve a Juristic Condominium is via 100% unanimous vote by all Co-owners, which would be next to impossible in probably 99.999% of Condominiums.

I agree with you, my wording was a bit strong. Let say only two or one committee member(s) remain. this is contrary to the condominium act, but the condo will still be there and will have to cope as best they can. however any AGM minutes and other procedural actions in the name of the condo will probably be rejected by the land office on the grounds of not having the minimum of three committee members.

[AlQaholic]

21 hours ago, Beggar said:

We have 6 members in our committee and they have been there for at least 8 years without interruption. How can this legally be? I know the regulation that you described. But is there a legal way to avoid it? The members of our committee all do business in our condominium complex and so they are very interested to keep the control. They rent out rooms. 

The condominium act is not totally clear on this point. It says that in the case where the term expires, the member should remain in office until a new member has been elected. I always assumed that was in the case where there are only three members remaining, but the act is not actually clear about that. This can be interpreted that if no new candidate is elected at the AGM, all members currently in office must remain. But in any case, by law, all members must be re-elected every two years. if no new candidate are available, regardless of the result of the re-election, the old members must remain in office until a new replacement member is elected at the AGM. 

[AlQaholic]

20 hours ago, meinphuket said:

They need to stand down after 2 years. If no one else is a candidate they may be re-elected by the other owners during the AGM. There should be 3,5,7 or 9 max. No even numbers. 

They may not be re-elected as they are not allowed by law to stand for re-election after the two terms have expired. If they do not stand for re-election, consequently, they cannot be elected. However, the AGM can include an agenda where the AGM votes that the current committee remains in office on the grounds there are no new new candidates, to make it clear in the minutes. The thing about odd numbers are nonsense, please show where you found that in the condominium act?

Edited January 31, 2020 by AlQaholic

[newnative]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:20 AM, Beggar said:

We have 6 members in our committee and they have been there for at least 8 years without interruption. How can this legally be? I know the regulation that you described. But is there a legal way to avoid it? The members of our committee all do business in our condominium complex and so they are very interested to keep the control. They rent out rooms. 

     If I understand it correctly, committee members can continue to serve after their 4 years are up if no other condo owners run for election.  However, they must stand down if there are others that run for election.  If you want some new blood on the committee, make sure there are enough owners standing for election at the next committee election to throw out the owners that have served the maximum time normally allowed.   

[Henryford]

I served on a Committee for 8 years because there was no one else wanting to join. When some more volunteered i stepped down. It's not always easy though to find people with the time and interest to join the Committee. Usually has to be someone living here full time.

[Delight]

Just to clarify a few points

1) All committee members are elected at a general meeting. Min 3 Max.9

2) A condo can never be without a committee.

If a committee resigns en masse then the JPM must call an EGM to resolve the issue.

Until the matter is resolved then the current committee ( as detailed at the land office ) cannot resign until a new committee is defined. They can of course refuse to meet.

 

The official committee is that which is stated at the land office.

[pepi2005]

On 1/30/2020 at 9:09 AM, AlQaholic said:

To answer the question, The committee members hold office for two years, after that they have to be re-elected at the A.G.M. At this years A.G.M., If there are vacant seats in the committee, any co-owner has the right to stand for election for any vacant seat. The law is very clear on this. Additionally, a group of co-owners holding 20% voting rights can call an Extraordinary General Meeting with their own agenda.

NOTE!, Again, to make it completely clear, the committee must resign en-mass every two years and submit to re-election at the A.G.M. If a new member is elected replacing a member that resigned between the two year period, the new member serves the same period as the resigned member, meaning he/she must resign together with the other members at the two year limit.

 

so in effect, after 2 years, any committee that *only* consists of members already acting for 2+ years would automatically be reduced to 3 persons?

 

However, what if one of the committee members holds a relevant percentage of ownership in the building? This committee member could prevent *any* other volunteer from *ever* being voted into the committee, so the commitee could always remain the same as "no other volunteers that were voted for with sufficient votes could be found". ????

 

[Delight]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:24 PM, Bill007 said:

Hello All

 

At our  building condominium AGM held in April of 2019 the buildings co-owners elected for 9 committee members to represent them and we also had 9 valid committee members standing so all 9 got dully elected.

 

Over the past 3 months 3 of them have resigned.

 

The remaining 6 have decided to not allow other candidates to stand at this years AGM to replace those whom resigned.

 

I personally believe this to possibly be unlawful and in contradiction to the condo act in that the Co owners voted for 9 in the AGM of April 2019 and if any resign then surely the duty of the remaining committee is to ask for possible replacements at this years upcoming AGM.

 

Any views on this matter from knowledgeable persons on this subject would be very much appreciated.

 

Thank you 

 

 

The existing committee finishes next month -assuming that an AGM  occurs,

The 2 year life of the current committee ends.

In general terms the 3 committee members did no resign-they simply became inactive.

Whatever is detailed at the land office about yours or any condo committee is the only detail that counts.

 

So at your next AGM the entire existing 9 members will resign . The chairman will then call for new volunteers.

A condo can never be without a committee. 

 

If all 9 members of a committee become inactive -then after 7 days the JPM will run the show.

His /her first duty will be to organise a Extra General Meeting. The  committee issue has to be resolved there and then

[AlQaholic]

21 hours ago, pepi2005 said:

However, what if one of the committee members holds a relevant percentage of ownership in the building? This committee member could prevent *any* other volunteer from *ever* being voted into the committee, so the commitee could always remain the same as "no other volunteers that were voted for with sufficient votes could be found". ????

Yes, that could happen, but if that is the case, then most of the building would be owned by that member and rightfully he/she would have the most influence on matters:) highly unlikely. Of course it is always possible that so few owners show up for the AGM that even a committee member with modest ownership can have significant influence on the voting. But, some important agenda items must have the votes of at least half of the total owners, and the AGM has a minimum quorum limit (including proxy votes) to even be started. 

The AGMs that I have seen over the years for two very different condos, one very large and another very small, has always managed to get the quorum and the minimum votes required for all agenda items.

 

Regarding the number of committee members, yes the minimum number is 3, but the act is unclear what happens if the maximum term is ending for all committee members if there are for example 5 members. I think, if there are for example 5 members and their maximum term ends and there are no new candidates, all 5 members are required to continue their duties until new members are voted for in an AGM. Any committee member can simply resign at any time, and if they sell their ownership in the condo they are automatically not a committee member any more.

Being a committee member and especially the chairman is very very difficult and i don't want to that for even my worst enemy, simply people who step up because nobody else want it. Most larger condos are run by companies that specialize in this kind of things, smaller condos cannot afford that and have to elect members of the committee from the owners.

Edited March 2, 2021 by AlQaholic

[Delight]

2 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

 

Most larger condos are run by companies that specialize in this kind of things, smaller condos cannot afford that and have to elect members of the committee from the owners.

 This is not correct.

Committees set policy. In practice this means -in the main -agreeing on how monies will be spent.

 

The JPM  manages the condo.The JPM has to follow the instructions from the committee plus ensure that the condo operates within the law i.e the  Condo  Act plus  the buildings Rules and Regulations.

 

Committee members do not do the manager's job-under any circumstances.

 

 

 However

 

Not having a management company is an attractive proposition. A JPM is a co -owner .The committee and the JPM work as one. It is also the lowest cost option.

So why do condos employ management companies?

Because the day will come when there are no co -owners who are able or willing to help.

 

The condo is faced with the dire circumstance of not having a JPM plus there being  nobody in the condo  who  has a clue or interest  in getting the condo back into a legal position.

Assuming that eventually things get sorted -then the fees must go up. Nobody wants that.

The problem could be ignored.

 

Service goes down -people stop paying because of the poor service. This results in a  further degradation of service and so on and so forth.

This is the beginning of the end of the condo.

[AlQaholic]

19 hours ago, Delight said:

This is not correct.

Committees set policy. In practice this means -in the main -agreeing on how monies will be spent.

Yes, you are correct, the committee members must all be co-owners, not a juristic person (meaning a management company). What I meant was having a management company run as JPM takes away almost all the usual work the committee would have to do, so the committee members are basically there just to sign stuff and never really take part in anything, while without the management company, a lot of work is required by the committee, especially the chairman. 

[Delight]

1 hour ago, AlQaholic said:

Yes, you are correct, the committee members must all be co-owners, not a juristic person (meaning a management company). What I meant was having a management company run as JPM takes away almost all the usual work the committee would have to do, so the committee members are basically there just to sign stuff and never really take part in anything, while without the management company, a lot of work is required by the committee, especially the chairman. 

 Not correct