Brexit at last: Britain leaves the EU as champagne corks fly

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

I think only failing countries, like the UK, would exit the EU, where large swathes of unemployed, jealous of their own handouts begrudge the social benefits Poles, Romanians and such are given. They may then blame the EU for their misery, as happened in the UK, out of ignorance.

 

If that were to happen, if more weak, failing countries leave the EU, that would only make the EU stronger. If it had stuck to the original membership, that would have been best really. Who needs toy countries, criminal countries and failing countries?

 

Either way the EU wins.

Either way the EU self-destructs.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

I think only failing countries, like the UK, would exit the EU, where large swathes of unemployed, jealous of their own handouts begrudge the social benefits Poles, Romanians and such are given. They may then blame the EU for their misery, as happened in the UK, out of ignorance.

 

If that were to happen, if more weak, failing countries leave the EU, that would only make the EU stronger. If it had stuck to the original membership, that would have been best really. Who needs toy countries, criminal countries and failing countries?

 

Either way the EU wins.

You have just proven that you are full of it. Congratulations! And you accuse others of ignorance!

 

Look down south for your "large swathes of unemployed". Greece, Spain and Italy at 33, 32 and 27% respectively.

[candide]

7 hours ago, izod10 said:

Graphs graphs graphs,full of graphs

  Now UK has deficit of 93 billion with EU, the 93 billion can be spent elsewhere in the world,bigger bang for the buck as the saying goes,the overpriced and EU French farmer is being de-bagged as I write,here is my graph,well Im making it right now.....

    UKs overall debt mountain reduced to 1/10   no EU influence,yes  no Barnett formula for Scotland,much more money in Johnny England's pockets.....yes good times ahead   Rejoice

Do you have any idea of what it really is to run a business? It's difficult to get reliable suppliers and complementors, it's hard to find good customers, it's even difficult just to keep good customers. It's completely unrealistic to think that businesses can just stop doing business with their current partners and easily get new ones.

[Logosone]

47 minutes ago, nauseus said:

" if, indeed. in the past 30 years, the UK's manufacturing sector has shrunk by two-thirds, then what has been the great benefit of EU membership?

 

How you can possibly compare the UK to Greece, I have no idea.

 

The EU has been protecting you? Disagree entirely. 

 

Now without the EU the gloves are off, and frankly nobody is betting on the UK. Read this: 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-holds-more-foreign-investment-than-germany-and-france-combined

 

Debt is a problem globally and guess what? Moody's has recently downgraded the outlooks (repeat outlooks) for the UK AND, France and Germany.

 

The great benefit of EU membership is that it has ameliorated and softened the inevitable economic decline of the UK. It has done so by providing free access to British services and products. It has done so by building roads and infrastructure in Wales and other parts the British could not finance and build out of their own (since you're so great), it has done so by preventing the take over of the London Stock Exchange by Deutsche Boerse AG, due to EU competition law.

 

I compare the UK to Greece because like Greece the UK is financed by foreign countries now. Your link saying that the UK holds 'foreign investment' only evidences that the UK has had to sell its heirlooms and porcelain to attract the billions of Pounds it needs to finance its debt-based failing economy. Of course you have more assets than Greece, but given your MASSIVE debt, what do you think will happen when foreigners one day decide not to lend to Britain anymore? Something not so impossible, since Moodys has downgraded British debt since 2013, long before Brexit, and again in 2017 and 2019.

 

The thing is you see, Germany and France dont need foreign money the way Britain does. Germany builds its own car plants. Do you think Germans lie awake at night wondering if Morgan or TVR build car factories in Germany? Lol, the whole notion is ridiculous, only Great Britishers are reduced to praying Nissan keeps plants in the UK. Germany does not have a trade deficit like Britain, it has a trade surplus you see. It pays its own way. It does not depend on others for money.

 

Of course debt is a global problem, but it is an acute problem for Britain. You already can not finance the handouts you give to your old age pensioners with taxes, you have to go to the capital markets to beg for the money from others. And that will get harder and harder as Moodys and co keep downgrading you.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Logosone

[candide]

3 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

A fact is , the EU just failed, it's a piece of <deleted> and only for multinationals, capital offices working.

Not for any of the common people living in the counties.

A drama. I hope the UK will do well now they left. Show them !!

Are you sure a low tax hub of free trade agreements worldwide, implemented by Tories who are proponents of ultra-liberal economics will not be dominated by multinationals? And will be in the interest of the working class and other people who have been left behind?

[Logosone]

35 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You have just proven that you are full of it. Congratulations! And you accuse others of ignorance!

 

Look down south for your "large swathes of unemployed". Greece, Spain and Italy at 33, 32 and 27% respectively.

 

And I hope and pray every night, that like the UK, Greece will vote to leave the EU. Unfortunately they shamelessly keep dipping their snouts in the EU trough, because they know full well who's paying the bills they will never leave unless they're kicked out. And Merkel and Co of course did not take the chance to kick out Greece when they had the chance. Now these social benefit addicts will be forever relying on German taxpayers.

 

Spain and Italy not so much, let's not forget that Italy now outproduces the UK and actually has a larger manufacturing output than the UK.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/456342/realtive-comparison-of-value-added-in-manufacturing-of-leading-countries/

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Logosone

[evadgib]

I shudder to think how much harder it will be for a country to escape if they're also tied to the Euro.

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

Oh come on, the decline of British industry has nothing to do with the EU. It long pre-dated EU membership. British industry was in decline by the 70s already, in fact that was part of the reason why you were so desperate to join the Common Market at the time. By facilitating free circulation of goods the EU actually helped you, but the decline of British Industry was unstoppable.

 

In the past 30 years, the UK's manufacturing sector has shrunk by two-thirds, the greatest de-industrialisation of any major nation.  <Snip>

 

Quote

 

But the thing is this, with debt you have no way out. Your reduction in your manufacturing base has put millions of people out of work. So you have a huge percentage of the population claiming benefits. You have a huge contingent of older people, despite your ailing and terrible NHS, that will need to be funded. Not just with NHS payments, but also the UK has to go to the capital markets to fund the payouts it gives its huge older population. The younger taxpayers are syphoned as hard as possible, but their tax is not enough to fund the handouts to old age pensioners. So your debt will grow. You will keep having to go to the capital markets to get the money you pay the older population. And guess what? Moody's has already downgraded the UK.

Yes the manufacturing decline is simply a matter of historical record, no amount of flag waving hysteria will change that. Possibly singing "Lloyd George knew my father" can temporarily insulate people from the economic reality. The decline was hugely increased in the 80s by Thatcher, when high interest rates made it impossible for UK manufacturers to retool and compete with the Japanese. Germany and others did. 

 

My major concern is the demographic problem alluded to in the last paragraph above. We are not the only country with boomers, and our unemployment rates are not dramatically higher than many other countries. How are the young taxpayers going to support a vast army of pensioners, a huge mass of people on benefits*, and all the other state employees who have negotiated for themselves large underfunded occupational pensions, (While the basic state pension, which is all 31% have, is the lowest in the OECD). The answer is they can't, so we have to borrow large amounts of money all the time.

 

Our NHS has been seriously underfunded for a long time, and if the Tories get their way they will simply sell it to the US, but to describe it as terrible is way over the top. We are still proud of it, and the wonderful dedicated staff. Sadly Brexit is causing many of the best to leave. 

 

* No this is not immigrants, every government survey shows that they are NET CONTRIBUTORS  to the UK economy. 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, transam said:

You're back on form....Sadly..????

As expected, your usual response to irrefutable facts which show your opinions to be based on ignorance and prejudice.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As expected, your usual response to irrefutable facts which show your opinions to be based on ignorance and prejudice.

I was referring to your cosistant looking down on members with your degrading comments which are totally uncalled for. 

PS. The general election just showed how out of touch you are with the voters in the country you live....

[Logosone]

42 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 

Yes the manufacturing decline is simply a matter of historical record, no amount of flag waving hysteria will change that. Possibly singing "Lloyd George knew my father" can temporarily insulate people from the economic reality. The decline was hugely increased in the 80s by Thatcher, when high interest rates made it impossible for UK manufacturers to retool and compete with the Japanese. Germany and others did. 

 

My major concern is the demographic problem alluded to in the last paragraph above. We are not the only country with boomers, and our unemployment rates are not dramatically higher than many other countries. How are the young taxpayers going to support a vast army of pensioners, a huge mass of people on benefits*, and all the other state employees who have negotiated for themselves large underfunded occupational pensions, (While the basic state pension, which is all 31% have, is the lowest in the OECD). The answer is they can't, so we have to borrow large amounts of money all the time.

 

Our NHS has been seriously underfunded for a long time, and if the Tories get their way they will simply sell it to the US, but to describe it as terrible is way over the top. We are still proud of it, and the wonderful dedicated staff. Sadly Brexit is causing many of the best to leave. 

 

* No this is not immigrants, every government survey shows that they are NET CONTRIBUTORS  to the UK economy. 

 

It is quite true, the Tories, Thatcher in particular, accelerated the industrial decline. They did so by misguided policies that put many people out of work. One by one Britain lost its illustrious industrial giants. But then, Blair did the same thereafter. The British mistakes run through the fabric of politics and have no colour.

 

I also agree that Britain will continue to be unable to fund its payouts to old age pensioners and the NHS and unemployed purely with tax money, it will have to go to the capital markets cap in hand and ask for the billions needed. 

 

I do not agree that the NHS is anything less than terrible. I know people who have had to use it, I've used it, and I have to say the experiences have been shocking across the board. Compared to German medical provision the NHS is extremely poor. But then you get what you pay for, and the NHS is free. That is a truly amazing feat to fund a free medical service, but let's not kid ourselves the quality of medical care is, well, not good. I keep marvelling how the British talk about everything in Britain being so 'great'. I remember at the height of mad cow disease this British politician went on tv and said 'British beef is the best in the world' in all seriousness. I saw a claim by another British politician that the NHS is the best health service in the world. Talk is cheap, as the Americans say.

 

Of course countries like Germany also have the same old age pensioner funding issue, however, they have a trade surplus and a strong manufacturing sector. Many German companies pay unspeakable sums in medical insurance, private individuals do too, the German medical services are not free. They are very expensive. Also, Germans are heavily taxed. There is actually a tax surplus in many areas.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Logosone

[7by7]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

I was referring to your cosistant looking down on members with your degrading comments which are totally uncalled for. 

 

Copying your methods, and those of your clique.

 

18 minutes ago, transam said:

PS. The general election just showed how out of touch you are with the voters in the country you live....

Really? How so, when only 43.6% voted for the Tories and 52.4% voted for parties who promised a referendum on whether to accept the withdrawal agreement or cancel Brexit?

 

It is you from 6000 miles away who is out of touch with the majority here in the UK. 

 

[sirineou]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:00 PM, rooster59 said:

"The war is over: we have won," Nigel Farage, a leading Leave campaigner, told the crowd.

You won the battle, The war is still ahead of you and you are going at it all along. Good luck. 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:00 PM, rooster59 said:

Brexit at last: Britain leaves the EU as champagne corks fly

I am sure not only in the UK. This situation has being a drag on the EU , IMO any other countries that disagree with the collectively agreed upon terms should leave also, allowing the EU to proceed with the necessary reforms for a viable union.

 

On 1/31/2020 at 10:00 PM, rooster59 said:

This is the single most important moment in the modern history of our great nation."

I agree, but for different reasons.   

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Debt is a problem globally and guess what? Moody's has recently downgraded the outlooks (repeat outlooks) for the UK AND, France and Germany.

 

Germany's credit rating is AAA with stable outlook at S&P's. 

 

Moody's credit rating is also Aaa with stable outlook.

 

Fitch's credit rating is AAA with stable outlook.

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/rating

 

The UK's credit rating is Aa2 with negative outlook at Moody's.

 

S&P gives it a mere AA.

 

Fitch AA with negative outlook.

 

Same as United Arab Emirates.

[transam]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Copying your methods, and those of your clique.

 

Really? How so, when only 43.6% voted for the Tories and 52.4% voted for parties who promised a referendum on whether to accept the withdrawal agreement or cancel Brexit?

 

It is you from 6000 miles away who is out of touch with the majority here in the UK. 

 

Did the election show a move to the Tories to get brexit done....Yes or No.....?

 

You will now duck and dive, you will not answer yes or no...........????

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

The great benefit of EU membership is that it has ameliorated and softened the inevitable economic decline of the UK. It has done so by providing free access to British services and products. It has done so by building roads and infrastructure in Wales and other parts the British could not finance and build out of their own (since you're so great), it has done so by preventing the take over of the London Stock Exchange by Deutsche Boerse AG, due to EU competition law.

 

I compare the UK to Greece because like Greece the UK is financed by foreign countries now. Your link saying that the UK holds 'foreign investment' only evidences that the UK has had to sell its heirlooms and porcelain to attract the billions of Pounds it needs to finance its debt-based failing economy. Of course you have more assets than Greece, but given your MASSIVE debt, what do you think will happen when foreigners one day decide not to lend to Britain anymore? Something not so impossible, since Moodys has downgraded British debt since 2013, long before Brexit, and again in 2017 and 2019.

 

The thing is you see, Germany and France dont need foreign money the way Britain does. Germany builds its own car plants. Do you think Germans lie awake at night wondering if Morgan or TVR build car factories in Germany? Lol, the whole notion is ridiculous, only Great Britishers are reduced to praying Nissan keeps plants in the UK. Germany does not have a trade deficit like Britain, it has a trade surplus you see. It pays its own way. It does not depend on others for money.

 

Of course debt is a global problem, but it is an acute problem for Britain. You already can not finance the handouts you give to your old age pensioners with taxes, you have to go to the capital markets to beg for the money from others. And that will get harder and harder as Moodys and co keep downgrading you.

Want some oxygen?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

And I hope and pray every night, that like the UK, Greece will vote to leave the EU. Unfortunately they shamelessly keep dipping their snouts in the EU trough, because they know full well who's paying the bills they will never leave unless they're kicked out. And Merkel and Co of course did not take the chance to kick out Greece when they had the chance. Now these social benefit addicts will be forever relying on German taxpayers.

 

Spain and Italy not so much, let's not forget that Italy now outproduces the UK and actually has a larger manufacturing output than the UK.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/456342/realtive-comparison-of-value-added-in-manufacturing-of-leading-countries/

 

Hilarious. The poor Greeks are screwed. They can't go even of they wanted to, no choice with their debt and the Euro.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

I shudder to think how much harder it will be for a country to escape if they're also tied to the Euro.

The main obstacle and not there by accident.

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Logosone said:

You may recall even the London Stock Exchange was going to be taken over by Deutsche Boerse AG, the only thing that stopped that was EU competition law. The irony. The EU has been protecting you.

Actually the LSE was pursuing a merger with Deutsche Boerse, a merger of equals. That merger and the benefits of scale would have protected LSE from future takeover bids.

 

The EU do not like the UK being the financial services hub of Europe. The merger would have strengthened the UK position. The EU pulled the plug on the merger shortly before the Article 50 was triggered. Read into that what you want. 

 

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

It is quite true, the Tories, Thatcher in particular, accelerated the industrial decline. They did so by misguided policies that put many people out of work. One by one Britain lost its illustrious industrial giants. But then, Blair did the same thereafter. The British mistakes run through the fabric of politics and have no colour.

 

I also agree that Britain will continue to be unable to fund its payouts to old age pensioners and the NHS and unemployed purely with tax money, it will have to go to the capital markets cap in hand and ask for the billions needed. 

 

I do not agree that the NHS is anything less than terrible. I know people who have had to use it, I've used it, and I have to say the experiences have been shocking across the board. Compared to German medical provision the NHS is extremely poor. But then you get what you pay for, and the NHS is free. That is a truly amazing feat to fund a free medical service, but let's not kid ourselves the quality of medical care is, well, not good. I keep marvelling how the British talk about everything in Britain being so 'great'. I remember at the height of mad cow disease this British politician went on tv and said 'British beef is the best in the world' in all seriousness. I saw a claim by another British politician that the NHS is the best health service in the world. Talk is cheap, as the Americans say.

 

Of course countries like Germany also have the same old age pensioner funding issue, however, they have a trade surplus and a strong manufacturing sector. Many German companies pay unspeakable sums in medical insurance, private individuals do too, the German medical services are not free. They are very expensive. Also, Germans are heavily taxed. There is actually a tax surplus in many areas.

As you seem to delight in trashing the UK at every opportunity, I think it's only fair if you tell us where you come from.  I mean, for you to be so critical, your country must be a pretty amazing place with a booming economy, and a glittering history. I'm genuinely curious. 

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, transam said:

I was referring to your cosistant looking down on members with your degrading comments which are totally uncalled for. 

PS. The general election just showed how out of touch you are with the voters in the country you live....

& see my comment elsewhere re his inability to differentiate between banter & (blatant, point scoring & somewhat tedious) abuse ????

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Copying your methods, and those of your clique.

 

Really? How so, when only 43.6% voted for the Tories and 52.4% voted for parties who promised a referendum on whether to accept the withdrawal agreement or cancel Brexit?

 

It is you from 6000 miles away who is out of touch with the majority here in the UK. 

 

Clunque, clique, every tripe!

[Jip99]

13 minutes ago, evadgib said:

& see my comment elsewhere re his inability to differentiate between banter & (blatant, point scoring & somewhat tedious) abuse ????

 

 

Do you think he is another reincarnation.... ?

[nauseus]

Just now, Jip99 said:

 

 

Do you think he is another reincarnation.... ?

Has to be.

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Do you think he is another reincarnation.... ?

Nah, This is the original (t'othermun fell flat) ????

Edited February 3, 2020 by evadgib

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Actually the LSE was pursuing a merger with Deutsche Boerse, a merger of equals. That merger and the benefits of scale would have protected LSE from future takeover bids.

 

The EU do not like the UK being the financial services hub of Europe. The merger would have strengthened the UK position. The EU pulled the plug on the merger shortly before the Article 50 was triggered. Read into that what you want. 

 

That is why Bloomberg reported it as the TAKEOVER of the LSE by Deutsche Boerse AG of course, lol:

 

"EU Blocks Deutsche Boerse’s $14 Billion Takeover of London Stock Exchange"

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-29/eu-blocks-deutsche-boerse-s-14-billion-takeover-of-rival-lse

 

If it was a merger of equals, then why would Deutsche Boerse AG have held 54.4% in the new group?

 

"...given Deutsche Börse would have held 54.4% of the shares in the group..."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/29/london-stock-exchange-deutsche-borse-merger-blocked-ec

 

If this takeover would have been in the LSE's interest, why did the shares of LSE rise 3% just after the announcement the EU was blocking the deal?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/29/london-stock-exchange-deutsche-borse-merger-blocked-ec

 

No. The EU protected you. It stopped the German exchange's TAKEOVER of the LSE.  

[CG1 Blue]

22 minutes ago, Logosone said:

That is why Bloomberg reported it as the TAKEOVER of the LSE by Deutsche Boerse AG of course, lol:

 

"EU Blocks Deutsche Boerse’s $14 Billion Takeover of London Stock Exchange"

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-29/eu-blocks-deutsche-boerse-s-14-billion-takeover-of-rival-lse

 

If it was a merger of equals, then why would Deutsche Boerse AG have held 54.4% in the new group?

 

"...given Deutsche Börse would have held 54.4% of the shares in the group..."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/29/london-stock-exchange-deutsche-borse-merger-blocked-ec

 

If this takeover would have been in the LSE's interest, why did the shares of LSE rise 3% just after the announcement the EU was blocking the deal?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/29/london-stock-exchange-deutsche-borse-merger-blocked-ec

 

No. The EU protected you. It stopped the German exchange's TAKEOVER of the LSE.  

A merger of equals is when two companies come together to form a new company. The 'equals' part of that term refers to the fact the two companies are of a similar size and stature. It was an agreed merger of equals. Almost every article in a Google search refers to the deal as a merger. 

The article in Bloomberg describes the EU's action as a 'symbolic block on EU/UK integration'. 

 

It's naive to think the EU blocked this deal to 'protect' the UK. Or perhaps you say this because it suits your argument. 

[Logosone]

It was a takeover of the LSE by the Deutsche Boerse, hence it is described as a takeover. 

 

It was not a merger of equals, as evidenced by the fact that Deutsche Boerse would have been the majority shareholder in the new group.

 

If it had been a merger of equals then Deutsche Boerse AG would not have held 54.4% of the new group. It would have been 50% each.

 

Deutsche Boerse held the controlling shareholding.

 

That is why the price of the LSE shares rose 3% and shareholders were relieved the takeover did not happen.

 

Of course the EU competition technocrats did not stop the deal to protect the UK, but that was the net result. The deal was stopped because France, Netherlands and others did not want the deal. Still the net result was that the EU prevented a takeover of the LSE by the Deutsche Boerse.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Logosone

[izod10]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It was a takeover of the LSE by the Deutsche Boerse, hence it is described as a takeover. 

 

It was not a merger of equals, as evidenced by the fact that Deutsche Boerse would have been the majority shareholder in the new group.

 

If it had been a merger of equals then Deutsche Boerse AG would not have held 54.4% of the new group. It would have been 50% each.

 

Deutsche Boerse held the controlling shareholding.

 

That is why the price of the LSE shares rose 3% and shareholders were relieved the takeover did not happen.

 

Of course the EU competition technocrats did not stop the deal to protect the UK, but that was the net result. The deal was stopped because France, Netherlands and others did not want the deal. Still the net result was that the EU prevented a takeover of the LSE by the Deutsche Boerse.

 

 

Matters not one bit sunshine,really does not. The UK now is master of its own destiny,and reading reports just this day, Honda a considering starting up manufacturing in UK, your beloved India ,now facing a certain decline living standards ,  proposes giving work for 100 days per year to the unemployed...digging holes and filling them in again, EU panic stricken        Now who gives a toss about Germany   (is it now firmly in recession)   France too,  all going tits up

 

  Relax sunshine,listen to a bit of Ted Heaths swing band,

Russ Conway's   sidesaddle  you will enjoy it  most definitely

[Logosone]

So much for 'power-hungry' and all dominant Germany. 

 

If Germany controls the EU, pray tell why could the German stock exchange not have its takeover of the LSE waived through by EU competition technocrats?

 

Germany has given away power to the EU, ie other EU member states. It allowed France, Netherlands et al to decide if a German stock exchange can take over the LSE.

 

How is that power-hungry?