Underground water leak - where to start !!

[Andrew Dwyer]

3 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

The agency that supplies your water will locate the leak.

I have heard that they use listening devices to locate water leaks.

Mine is surely a trickle or seepage, do you think they will be able to locate such a small leak ?

[lopburi3]

Would not expect most to even know about lisiting device, much less be able to use.  I would make very sure it is not a pump/tank issue before digging - if pressure switch or tank has failed there could be less than a cat whisker between pump and not.  Believe well worth the expense to have someone check before going much further.  I know not pumping when output closed seems to rule out would want someone with more experience to check first.

[Andrew Dwyer]

4 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Would not expect most to even know about lisiting device, much less be able to use.  I would make very sure it is not a pump/tank issue before digging - if pressure switch or tank has failed there could be less than a cat whisker between pump and not.  Believe well worth the expense to have someone check before going much further.  I know not pumping when output closed seems to rule out would want someone with more experience to check first.

Yes, definitely, last thing I want to do is destroy a lot of tiling , inside and outside, to discover it was something else.

I will probably change the bladder tank just to tick it off the list and if possible get get some more experienced advice on the pump.

 

This thread, albeit for my own selfish reason, is good that it brings out some tips that can be helpful to others i.e. food colouring in the toilet.
A pressure gauge is often mentioned and to have one in the pipework after the pump, and a stop valve, would be ideal.

The problem is only getting worse though and I do need to make an exploratory hole to uncover some pipe work, roughly halfway in the system, cap it off and check again to see if the leak is buried in the house somewhere .

[frequentatore]

Have you tried to unplug the pump? Stop using faucets for a few hours, take a picture of your water meter and compare later to see if anything has moved.

[saengd]

1 hour ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Was thinking about above already !! although aesthetically more pleasing it would leave a lot of pipework overhead .

Not sure how I feel about that really ?

 

 

Don't forget that most older homes in the UK have pipework in the attic, some even have cistern tanks too! 

 

If you go that route, perhaps consider using HDPE pipe, continuous, no joins, much stronger than blue pipe and no impact from temperature changes.

[Andrew Dwyer]

5 minutes ago, frequentatore said:

Have you tried to unplug the pump? Stop using faucets for a few hours, take a picture of your water meter and compare later to see if anything has moved.

That would happen if the leak was between the outside water meter and the pump.

In my case the pressure created by the pump is being lost either passing through a toilet or a dripping tap or more likely a pvc pipe , or fitting, has cracked or come unglued causing water to seep out and in turn drop the pressure forcing the pump to pulse/cycle to build back up to the normal working pressure.

[saengd]

I haven't read the entire thread so ignore this if already discussed.....assume you've already tried to isolate ALL individual units such as toilets, sinks etc using separate under sink/inline shut off valves, if not fitted in some places maybe worth installing, given the potential effort on the downside.

[Andrew Dwyer]

My gf now tells me that the neighbour at the back had the same issue ( pump running occasionally ) they got a guy in who dug up a couple of places and found the offending leak in the concrete walkway.

How he found the spot though ?

Will have to wait until the neighbours return.

[saengd]

Last crazy idea from me......try installing a pressure gauge on the house side of the pump, cheap and easy to do and will let you 100% rule out the pump and you'll see the pressure drop, if there is a leak.

[Curt1591]

1 hour ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I have heard that they use listening devices to locate water leaks.

Mine is surely a trickle or seepage, do you think they will be able to locate such a small leak ?

If not, it still costs you nothing to have them try.

[saengd]

3 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

If not, it still costs you nothing to have them try.

I doubt it, the water company wanted a 500 baht deposit from us before they would even consider coming out to check whether our meter was faulty or not, if it was found to be OK they keep the deposit.

[mogandave]

it’s been my experience that a fair percentage of the PCV valves leak.
 

As you say, if the the “bypass” valve is leaking and the city pressure is very low, could cause the pump to cycle. 
 

in any event, there should be a check-valve (non-return) in the bypass, then you can leave the ball-valve open.

[saengd]

So I gave up on this thread and went back to work in the garden, whilst there I hear my pump is cycling every thirty seconds or so. It keeps doing it so I go back inside the house and check all the outlets are turned off, I double check stuff and and generally look in the obvious places but no, no obvious cause. Now I'm sat here wondering what's going on, the bladder tank was replaced about three months ago so it's not that, hmmm I tell myself!

 

Perhaps it's an airborne virus that causes pumps to cycle, or maybe it's transmitted via Thai Visa Forum, I shall name it the Andyer virus if it is! In the meantime I shall keep my fingers crossed this is caused by low water pressure from the city or similar, fortunately my house is raised up but I hate crawling underneath  it to check stuff. I shall report back if things change.

[Andrew Dwyer]

39 minutes ago, mogandave said:

it’s been my experience that a fair percentage of the PCV valves leak.
 

As you say, if the the “bypass” valve is leaking and the city pressure is very low, could cause the pump to cycle. 
 

in any event, there should be a check-valve (non-return) in the bypass, then you can leave the ball-valve open.

Yes I turned the two valves off at either side of the meter also to check if my bypass stop valve is leaking, doesn’t seem to be working.

My water pressure is very poor , barely good enough for a shower.

Plus, my bypass is buried half and half  !!, no room for a NRV, I’m tempted to leave it alone. !!

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Andrew Dwyer

[Andrew Dwyer]

14 minutes ago, saengd said:

So I gave up on this thread and went back to work in the garden, whilst there I hear my pump is cycling every thirty seconds or so. It keeps doing it so I go back inside the house and check all the outlets are turned off, I double check stuff and and generally look in the obvious places but no, no obvious cause. Now I'm sat here wondering what's going on, the bladder tank was replaced about three months ago so it's not that, hmmm I tell myself!

 

Perhaps it's an airborne virus that causes pumps to cycle, or maybe it's transmitted via Thai Visa Forum, I shall name it the Andyer virus if it is! In the meantime I shall keep my fingers crossed this is caused by low water pressure from the city or similar, fortunately my house is raised up but I hate crawling underneath  it to check stuff. I shall report back if things change.

I just love to share ????

 

Seriously though I hope it is something easier to find and fix than mine !!

[OOTAI]

Andrew

Believe me I feel for you as I/we have the same problem here at our place. Luckily for us the leak location is obvious as the water comes up from the floor. It is in our ensuite bathroom and not far from a drain hole so if the pump is left on there is not any risk of a flood or damage. So in typical Thai fashion my wife has decided that we don't need to spend any money ripping up the tiles and fixing the leak instead we just go outside the bedroom door and use the switch for the pump in the main electrical box. Problem is I just about always forget to turn it off after I have used it so she is often yelling at me "bit nam" and I yell back "f***ing fix it". 

 

Anyway our house was built 10 years ago and the leak has been around for about 5 years (no wonder I get cranky) so that would be about the same time as yours started i.e. 5 years after building. I believe the leak has resulted from minor settling of the house causing a minor fracture in the blue PVC pipe we used and which was run under the tiles in the 2inch thick grout/cement they use to lay tiles on.

 

So the solution would have been to use heavier duty PVC as someone on here has suggested or as a mate of mine did when he built his house run your supply line inside a bigger diameter protection pipe. Then the outside bigger pipe could fracture but still protect the inside supply line. In hindsight we should have run a pipe to each location in the bathroom directly up from underneath through the floor. Our house is not quite a metre off the ground.

 

In my opinion you are doing all the right things to eliminate areas and narrow down the location of the leak unfortunately in your case there is no simple solution just keep going until you find it.   In the meantime just switch off the pump at night so you can sleep.

[Thaifish]

I really sympathise with your plight. I have a rural property back in Ozz with maybe close to 1km of poly pipe running every which way. Leaks are inevitable. It sounds like your leak is somewhere in the pipework. The way I locate a leaks is systematic. You need to isolate each (known) branch with a valve hopefully near the pump and then open and close valves to find which is at fault. Process of elimination. From experience I have found wet patches nowhere near where pipes are located. Up to 8 meters away from the actual leak. I suggest a walk around the yard and look for any water telltale. If there are pipes running near cracks in the concrete or walls look hard in those places. Also 90% of my leaks come from a join or elbow joint. Also check around the tiles under showers for water weeps. Sometimes hard to spot as area is always wet anyway. Good luck.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Thaifish

[saengd]

I got mine sorted.....a very fine stream of water from a bathroom hand-basin that wasn't fully closed, almost imperceptible.

[Andrew Dwyer]

52 minutes ago, Thaifish said:

I really sympathise with your plight. I have a rural property back in Ozz with maybe close to 1km of poly pipe running every which way. Leaks are inevitable. It sounds like your leak is somewhere in the pipework. The way I locate a leaks is systematic. You need to isolate each (known) branch with a valve hopefully near the pump and then open and close valves to find which is at fault. Process of elimination. From experience I have found wet patches nowhere near where pipes are located. Up to 8 meters away from the actual leak. I suggest a walk around the yard and look for any water telltale. If there are pipes running near cracks in the concrete or walls look hard in those places. Also 90% of my leaks come from a join or elbow joint. Also check around the tiles under showers for water weeps. Sometimes hard to spot as area is always wet anyway. Good luck.

Yup, my problem is straight after the pump the pipework goes underground and is not seen again ( except for an outside sink, feed to the washing machine and 3 hosepipes ) .
Needle in a haystack !

[Andrew Dwyer]

51 minutes ago, saengd said:

I got mine sorted.....a very fine stream of water from a bathroom hand-basin that wasn't fully closed, almost imperceptible.

Where’s that “ lucky <deleted>” emoji when you need it ?

[anterian]

One can use a stethoscope to locate leaks, even 3 feet deep.

 

[Peter Denis]

15 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Keep the suggestions coming, I’m open to anything ????

 

> Good luck with finding the leak!

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Peter Denis

[Curt1591]

4 hours ago, saengd said:

I doubt it, the water company wanted a 500 baht deposit from us before they would even consider coming out to check whether our meter was faulty or not, if it was found to be OK they keep the deposit.

Because our moo baan was developed by We-B-Developement, many of our neighbors, and ourselves, have had water leaks. The water company has never charged any of us for locating the leak. They will charge, of refer, for repair, if the leak is on our side of the meter.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Curt1591

[EVENKEEL]

First thing that comes to mind, as I'm a lazy ass. Put in a water tank, that way you'll only run the pump as tank level drops. If the leak causes no visible damage, why not??

[lopburi3]

14 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

First thing that comes to mind, as I'm a lazy ass. Put in a water tank, that way you'll only run the pump as tank level drops. If the leak causes no visible damage, why not??

Water tanks hold incoming water and have nothing to do with pump running.  Believe you are thinking of a pressure tank and suspect he already has that as part of his pump.  

[Andrew Dwyer]

26 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

First thing that comes to mind, as I'm a lazy ass. Put in a water tank, that way you'll only run the pump as tank level drops. If the leak causes no visible damage, why not??

I am assuming you mean put a water tank up in the roof for pressure and use the pump to fill the tank when required ?

[lopburi3]

12 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I am assuming you mean put a water tank up in the roof for pressure and use the pump to fill the tank when required ?

If that is the case you have to remember water weighs a lot (so you need a solid tower) and a single story drop is not going to provide any meaningful water pressure so a very high tower would be required (which is often overlooked).  

Quote

One foot of water height is approximately equal to 0.434 psi

http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publications/ontap/2010_tb/hydraulics_pressure_DWFSOM147.pdf

[Andrew Dwyer]

1 minute ago, lopburi3 said:

If that is the case you have to remember water weighs a lot (so you need a solid tower) and a single story drop is not going to provide any meaningful water pressure so a very high tower would be required (which is often overlooked).  

http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publications/ontap/2010_tb/hydraulics_pressure_DWFSOM147.pdf

It is probably not something I would consider, just trying to work out if that is what he meant.

[EVENKEEL]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

It is probably not something I would consider, just trying to work out if that is what he meant.

I've seen tanks built on a higher platform, just assumed they were using gravity flow. 

[lopburi3]

4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I've seen tanks built on a higher platform, just assumed they were using gravity flow. 

Often tanks are built up a bit to allow cleaning from bottom but there is just not enough pressure to use them for supply to home without a pump - although suspect could be used for agriculture where only low pressure required.  Suspect I am taking off-topic and sorry.