Make us ventilators to fight coronavirus, UK government asks manufacturers

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, englishoak said:

And I am not alone, already out local community have  300 + locals signed on with various skills. large part as we have a good few care homes close is to protect those and take on the fetch and carry roles enabling the carers, nurses and medical staff to prioritise their time better... 3 local cabbies signed on to do local pick ups for any medical staff free. It is this combined selfless effort that will get us through and do what we can to ease the stress on medical staff in any way possible, which we all know is going to be massive. 

Good on you all, and well done to make the effort rather than stay home and watch tv. That's where lay people will be most use- in the community. Leave the nursing in hospital to the nurses. They will be far too busy to supervise people that don't know what they are doing.

[JonnyF]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I dealt with that in a previous post. It is relatively easy to train a pilot to fly a plane too, but would you want one that doesn't know how to deal with problems?

Of course you'd rather have an experienced pilot.

 

But I'd rather have an inexperienced pilot than no pilot at all. I'm sure nurses that have expertise in other areas can be trained to use a ventilator. Maybe not as well as someone who has been doing it for 10 years but then we're in the middle of an emergency so desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

Personally I think manufacturing extra ventilators is a good thing. Even if it only saves one life.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Of course you'd rather have an experienced pilot.

 

But I'd rather have an inexperienced pilot than no pilot at all. I'm sure nurses that have expertise in other areas can be trained to use a ventilator. Maybe not as well as someone who has been doing it for 10 years but then we're in the middle of an emergency so desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

Personally I think manufacturing extra ventilators is a good thing. Even if it only saves one life.

I've covered that already, but again- if trained nurses are taken off wards to use ventilators, the sick people on the wards will suffer, and most patients will not be sick enough to require a ventilator. There are a limited number of trained nurses available, and most are already working at full capacity even without a crisis.

That's why loads of old people are dying in Italy, IMO. I'm sure if what is being suggested worked, the Italians would have a much lower death rate.

[JAG]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fortunately for the potential patients, that should never be allowed by the authorities. Would you fly in a plane piloted by a teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training? Trained health care workers know how to look after sick people, teenage St Johns cadet with a few days training do not. All that would happen is that they would themselves get infected and increase the burden on hospitals.

Seems to me that most people have no idea what is involved in nursing care from their rare visit to a hospital. People don't spend years as students because it is so easy to look after sick people.

So just what is your suggestion?

Refuse treatment?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

So just what is your suggestion?

Refuse treatment?

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Of course no one should refuse treatment, but don't expect miracles. Hospital staff will do their best, but as is clear from Italy, best is not always good enough to save people's lives.

Just be realistic and don't expect to get a ventilator regardless.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I've covered that already, but again- if trained nurses are taken off wards to use ventilators, the sick people on the wards will suffer, and most patients will not be sick enough to require a ventilator. There are a limited number of trained nurses available, and most are already working at full capacity even without a crisis.

That's why loads of old people are dying in Italy, IMO. I'm sure if what is being suggested worked, the Italians would have a much lower death rate.

Surely you would take nurses away from non critical areas? For example by postponing non critical operations such as hip replacements then you wouldn't need nurses for all that post surgery care and those nurses could then be trained on treating Corona Virus (including the use of ventilators).

 

You say most patients won't need a ventilator, but what if 5% do and hundreds of thousands are infected?

 

I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

[JAG]

55 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Of course no one should refuse treatment, but don't expect miracles. Hospital staff will do their best, but as is clear from Italy, best is not always good enough to save people's lives.

Just be realistic and don't expect to get a ventilator regardless.

I am suggesting  a programme which could markedly increase the number of available ventilators, and allow more people to be treated in the present and forthcoming emergency.

 

I accept that the standard of care, and indeed the quality and versatility of the machines may fall short of "best practice", but i believe that is preferable, and better, as it will allow for less stringent rationing of care. My comments about "St John's Cadets" were not perhaps the best analogy. Nevertheless, you drew attention to the situation in Italy, where many elderly patients are effectively unable to be treated. If this crisis/epidemic is to last for months, then "emergency trained" staff, working under supervision, using "emergency produced equipment" are one way of addressing that situation.

 

I don't think that the analogy of the inexperienced pilot holds water. I can choose not to board an airplane if I do not consider the pilot experienced. If I were seriously ill from this disease, and perhaps facing death, then I would not be likely to refuse any treatment which could be offered on similar grounds.

 

There, I don't see that i can put it any more clearly.

[JAG]

8 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Jesus! At the very very least they could have staggered the start!

I come from Bath. Whilst in many ways a beautiful and wonderful City, it does regard itself as "special", and rather takes pride in being different. That can translate into a sense of entitlement - "The rules don't apply to us!" 

 

That probably was the approach taken to the Bath Half Marathon.

[JAG]

4 hours ago, OKF said:

I heard that the Britsh Government bought land to be able to burry all the dead from that virus. Yes you could call it pragmatic..... I think the way the UK deals with the Virus is worse or similar to Thailand. The UK will end up same or worse then Italy, that is actually clear already looking at statistics. And yes even specialized hospitals already run out of ventilators and have not even had a number of cases. But yeah all those  old people that voted for this Johnson nutter to leave the EU for a better life will soon feel what it means....in my opinion the UK and the US, Thailand and Japan are dealing inresponsible with the issues and they will face the consequences on this soon. BTW Mr. J and Mr. T seem to be brothers(?)

I wonder, could you stand up when you have something to say? When you speak from a sitting position, the meaning is somehow lost because it is muffled and indistinct...

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm. The ( nursing ) students might have other ideas about that. After all they should actually know something about what is involved. I'd be interested to know if they are trying to get retired nurses to be prepared to work in hospitals if it does go wrong, though many were so happy to get out of the NHS that they may be reluctant to go back.

My theatre nurse friend says that the biggest problem is the number of nurses we have lost during the Tory years, 10,000 was her figure. This has been massively exacerbated by nurses fleeing the ugly petty xenophobic nationalism of Brexit to return to their homes across the Channel, who wouldn't. 

 

The second problem was highlighted by manufacturers being begged by Britains highest profile ignoramus to switch production. No problem for the engineering geniuses of TV of course, but the actual manufacturers tried to point out that you need to make machines to make machines. Among the great oxymorons apart from "Military intelligence" "American culture" and "Humble jazz musician" you get "The overnight toolmaker".

 

TV members who think they are much smarter engineers than Britains leading manufacturers, please get in contact with Boris now. Your country needs you. 

[RANGER55]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

Sure all systems have faults, but the for profit system has the "by definition" fatal flaw.

There are some things that the for profit system does better given the incentive, and then there are others .................. Public health is not one to be left to human greed IMO.

The government should have a "Manhattan Project"  working on this continuously. SARS was not the last virus and I guarantee you, this one is not going to be the last one also. 

     Perhaps an International effort is requires, something similar to the Large Hadron Collider project. 

And where are you going to get the professionals for this Manhattan Project? Sitting around at a desk working for the government? No, they would come from the private companies which are working on a solution now, in record time. A company in Washington State started testing a Vaccine Monday on people, I am sure other companies around the world are doing the same. What the Gov. can do is fund the research at these companies and Universities, which they do now on all aspects of research.

 

As for a RN, the local Technical collage/trade school where I am from has a 14-month LPN program. The satellite University two miles down the road has a 2-year RN program.

The problem with a shortage of RN’s is the high demand and competition for them. With all the private assisted living, home health care, lab Corps and other companies to include the schools. The RN can go several different ways, often with a good signing bonus and more flexible hours then a hospital.

 

As for the SARS virus, they do have several vaccines now if it ever comes back. They did not just stop the research without a vaccine. One is the typical shot that builds an immunity to it. Another is one that attacks the DNA, which they say works best. I am sure there are several more.

 

But you are right, we will have another one in years to come as long as the Chicoms still allow those open markets, which they will.

[Basil B]

3 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

TV members who think they are much smarter engineers than Britains leading manufacturers, please get in contact with Boris now. Your country needs you. 

Well, first of all the ventilators they use now are nothing like what I recall, they are all singing complicated and over engineered.

I recall a steel box with a bellows on top,  If I were designing I would start with, KISS (keep it simple, stupid), off the shelf parts, maybe an Arduino or Raspberry Pi as the controller, linked by WiFi to a remote monitoring station, as it is likely many people will end up being treated in their own homes by family, friends and volunteers.

[sirineou]

24 minutes ago, RANGER55 said:

And where are you going to get the professionals for this Manhattan Project?

The same place they got the people that worked on the Manhattan project

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, RANGER55 said:

<Snip>

 

As for the SARS virus, they do have several vaccines now if it ever comes back. They did not just stop the research without a vaccine. One is the typical shot that builds an immunity to it. Another is one that attacks the DNA, which they say works best. I am sure there are several more.

 

But you are right, we will have another one in years to come as long as the Chicoms still allow those open markets, which they will.

Yes, we will certainly have more viruses, more virulent MDR bacteria, and more plagues. Such is the nature of mutation, it bowls us a googly from time to time. One day, one may emerge which is both fatal and easily spread, and it could be bye bye humanity. Hopefully this will happen before we destroy what is left of the planet for the dolphins to inherit. 

 

Chinese live food markets are unpleasant for sure, but it is not all their fault. Somewhere in Africa someone probably shagged the monkey to get Ebola, and MERS sounds like it originated in the Middle East. It appears that we are no longer committing genocide on the "Native Americans" with Smallpox infected blankets,  but the US is not a reservoir of all virtue either.

 

One possible positive approach would be to stop our countries being ruled by rich fat old men. Their lack of concern for less well off members of society is legendary. 

[billd766]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do you have any better ideas?

Carry on as normally as possible, don't panic and do silly things like buying loads of TP, and try to stay healthy as possible.

Just don't expect government to save everyone if it really goes bad. Hospitals and nurses will do their best, but miracles are in short supply these days.

 

I'm puzzled as to where you think all the extra nurses could come from. The UK doesn't have enough locals that want to be nurses and depends on nurses from overseas. In a world wide crisis nurses will be needed in their own country. Western hospitals don't have enough nurses anyway, to cope with a huge crisis like Italy has.

 

not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained)

Perhaps you think people off the street can be "trained"- good luck with that, and how many are willing to risk their own life looking after infectious patients with very little training? Takes years to train nurses properly.

rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

I very much doubt that will happen

 

 

I was watching an Al Jazeera documentary about Ebola in Liberia today- many of the people working with Ebola patients die of Ebola themselves.

I don't expect ANY government to save all the people and I do understand that there are not enough NHS nurses and doctors. I caught a bit of news yesterday that The government may/will ask retired doctors and nurses to go on (I assume) temporary contracts to help out.

 

What is wrong with training some existing nurses to the extra skills required and recruiting new people to be trained as nurses.

 

After years of austerity where the NHS has been badly hit it is time that it was given more funds as a priority to get back as much as was cut and more. I keep hearing that the NHS is not for sale so why not try to bring it back towards what it used to be.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Surely you would take nurses away from non critical areas? For example by postponing non critical operations such as hip replacements then you wouldn't need nurses for all that post surgery care and those nurses could then be trained on treating Corona Virus (including the use of ventilators).

 

You say most patients won't need a ventilator, but what if 5% do and hundreds of thousands are infected?

 

I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

I'm pretty certain that should the situation really come to that, NO non essential surgery will occur, so if one has been waiting years for a new hip, or knee, be prepared to wait a lot longer. There just won't be the post op beds available.

 

I strongly suggest that everyone should read the thread about what is happening in Italy. That says it far better than I can.

 

Far as the desired "rush" training for ventilator operators goes, I can only say there is no point saving someone from respiratory distress using a ventilator, if the patient goes on to die of some simple problem like bed sores because the operator didn't know how to look after an immobile patient ( I've seen bed sores that expose the spine because the carers didn't know that an immobile person needs to be turned frequently ).

 

I understand that everyone wants everything done that possibly can be, but sometimes there is more to hospital care than most lay people will ever know or understand. That's just the way it is.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I don't expect ANY government to save all the people and I do understand that there are not enough NHS nurses and doctors. I caught a bit of news yesterday that The government may/will ask retired doctors and nurses to go on (I assume) temporary contracts to help out.

 

What is wrong with training some existing nurses to the extra skills required and recruiting new people to be trained as nurses.

 

After years of austerity where the NHS has been badly hit it is time that it was given more funds as a priority to get back as much as was cut and more. I keep hearing that the NHS is not for sale so why not try to bring it back towards what it used to be.

My connection disappeared so I had to wait a couple of hours to post this-

 

Excellent news if the government is going to ask retired Drs and nurses to return, but given the regulatory hoops that exist for anyone wanting to return to nursing that would require a massive culture change in nursing politics ( I can't speak for Drs ). I certainly would not be prepared to go through all the BS that nowadays accompanies being a nurse. When I retired the best thing ( apart from not being bullied by nurse managers ) was not having to conform to all the illogical and BS regulations that I had to abide by merely to do my job.

What is wrong with training some existing nurses to the extra skills required

Nothing at all, if the nurses that can be spared from their current positions  can be found. Nursing, when I was doing it in London, had a crisis in numbers, and I doubt that has changed. British people, apparently don't want to be nurses in the way it was in the good old days of hospital training. There's something about years in a university and poor pay when one does get to work at the job one spent years training to do that puts people off nursing. The endemic bullying doesn't help either.

recruiting new people to be trained as nurses.

As I just explained, many don't want to be nurses, so that's a problem, and it takes at least 3 years to become an RN, so not much help in the present crisis.

There used to be enrolled nurses that had a much shorter training, but they scrapped that category in favour of much cheaper assistants that have such rudimentary training that they can't do much at all.

 

I keep hearing that the NHS is not for sale so why not try to bring it back towards what it used to be.

The NHS used to be a very different beast from what it has morphed into. I don't think many would want those days back, but the NHS definitely needs to cull loads of management, and concentrate on basic health care, not get into all the very expensive hi tech stuff.

[sotonowl]

On 3/16/2020 at 11:28 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Sooooo, they make loads of ventilators, then where are all the nurses to operate all the new ventilators going to come from? Does the government think loads of nurses qualified to operate ventilators are just hanging around waiting for the call?

They're ventilators not blacksmiths bellows, you plug them in and you're good to go, you don't need anyone hand pumping them.

[Nigel Garvie]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

<Snip>

I keep hearing that the NHS is not for sale so why not try to bring it back towards what it used to be.

The NHS used to be a very different beast from what it has morphed into. I don't think many would want those days back, but the NHS definitely needs to cull loads of management, and concentrate on basic health care, not get into all the very expensive hi tech stuff.

The Blair/Brown settlements were so generous they even surprised the BMA, who couldn't believe their luck. Unfortunately they just resulted in lots of extra money for consultants and lots of additional managers. My experience on the receiving end of excellent NHS care is that doctors are completely hamstrung by protocols, and endless tiers of unnecessary management, which is justified by our aping (How appropriate a word) the absurd US obsession with litigation. 

 

Blair & Brown at least appeared to have good intentions, though coupled with moronic executive skills. The Tories by comparison have been trying to privatise the NHS by stealth. How rewarding it is to invite your friends to stick their snouts into the taxpayer funded trough.

 

So the answer is that yes, we should have had better funding and less managers a long time ago. Like the US we have been caught with our trousers down, when the proverbial hit the fan, which it has done big time. More ventilators and more trained nurses, clearly too much to ask for in the past.

 

"not get into all the very expensive hi tech stuff." Can't agree here though, MRIs and CTs have saved millions of lives, just for one example.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

The Blair/Brown settlements were so generous they even surprised the BMA, who couldn't believe their luck. Unfortunately they just resulted in lots of extra money for consultants and lots of additional managers. My experience on the receiving end of excellent NHS care is that doctors are completely hamstrung by protocols, and endless tiers of unnecessary management, which is justified by our aping (How appropriate a word) the absurd US obsession with litigation. 

 

Blair & Brown at least appeared to have good intentions, though coupled with moronic executive skills. The Tories by comparison have been trying to privatise the NHS by stealth. How rewarding it is to invite your friends to stick their snouts into the taxpayer funded trough.

 

So the answer is that yes, we should have had better funding and less managers a long time ago. Like the US we have been caught with our trousers down, when the proverbial hit the fan, which it has done big time. More ventilators and more trained nurses, clearly too much to ask for in the past.

 

"not get into all the very expensive hi tech stuff." Can't agree here though, MRIs and CTs have saved millions of lives, just for one example.

 

 

Thanks for that. Brown wasted 6 billion on the NHS which was used to build fancy new buildings and employ more managers. We got two completely pointless nurse managers. They did give the lowest level nurses a pay rise, but that was because they couldn't get nurses to work at the wages they were paying.

 

My reference to expensive high tech doesn't include such essentials as MRIs and CTs. It's stuff way above them in expense and treats very few patients. They should be putting money into treating the greatest number of patients possible, not enabling consultants wet dreams.

The hospital I worked at was an NHS hospital and could have treated way more NHS patients, but a lot of time was taken in theatres by consultants private patients. IMO no private patients should be treated in an NHS hospital.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, sotonowl said:

They're ventilators not blacksmiths bellows, you plug them in and you're good to go, you don't need anyone hand pumping them.

[Nigel Garvie]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thanks for that. Brown wasted 6 billion on the NHS which was used to build fancy new buildings and employ more managers. We got two completely pointless nurse managers. They did give the lowest level nurses a pay rise, but that was because they couldn't get nurses to work at the wages they were paying.

 

My reference to expensive high tech doesn't include such essentials as MRIs and CTs. It's stuff way above them in expense and treats very few patients. They should be putting money into treating the greatest number of patients possible, not enabling consultants wet dreams.

The hospital I worked at was an NHS hospital and could have treated way more NHS patients, but a lot of time was taken in theatres by consultants private patients. IMO no private patients should be treated in an NHS hospital.

Yes it is a hard call so often. Do we pay profiteering Pharma companies absurd sums for drugs that extend life expectancy by a few months. Social medicine (Care in the community etc) achieves vastly more at moderate expense.

 

This Covid in old folks issue is not simple either. Giving an expensive vaccine to elders with compromised immune systems may well kill them anyway! 

[Logosone]

On 3/16/2020 at 6:59 PM, billd766 said:

IMHO it is better to have equipment in quantity to spare (which can be lent out or sold to other countries) and not have enough skilled staff (who can be trained) rather than a surplus of staff and no equipment.

 

Yes, it's a shame that UK governments did not use that logic prior to the pandemic hitting the UK.  Germany has three times the number of Intensive care beds the UK has and greater numbers of respirators.

 

That's not that surprising since a German and Dutch company are among the top respirators manufacturers in the world, and the UK let its manufacturers fail to the extent they're only 20% of the economy.

 

Now of course manufacturing is needed again when the chips are down.

 

The UK government has failed its people not just by lettings its NHS service degrade to the extent it has too few respirators, only one third of intensive care beds of Germany, but it has also failed by allowing its manufacturers to fail and morphing into a 80% services economy. Not much use for tax advisers now then?

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Yes, it's a shame that UK governments did not use that logic prior to the pandemic hitting the UK.  Germany has three times the number of Intensive care beds the UK has and greater numbers of respirators.

 

That's not that surprising since a German and Dutch company are among the top respirators manufacturers in the world, and the UK let its manufacturers fail to the extent they're only 20% of the economy.

 

Now of course manufacturing is needed again when the chips are down.

 

The UK government has failed its people not just by lettings its NHS service degrade to the extent it has too few respirators, only one third of intensive care beds of Germany, but it has also failed by allowing its manufacturers to fail and morphing into a 80% services economy. Not much use for tax advisers now then?

Had the NHS management not wasted the 6 billion quid Gordon Brown gave them, the UK would have a great public health system. As it is, the hospitals are old and inefficient, nurses hard to recruit, and far too many managers. A good solution would be to sack 75% of the managers and spend their salaries on improving services to the public. The NHS could probably survive quite happily with 90% fewer managers, but it would be hard to convince the public of that.

[Logosone]

Succcessive UK governments had windfall after windfall, from the 79 billion£ privatisation windfall, to the 29 billion £ to the untold billions of the North Sea oil windfall. What did they do with the billions? Pass them on to the electorate as re-election bribes with lower taxes. So the money was invested in the UK's absurdly overpriced housing market. 

 

It would have been possible to fund the NHS with many billions more, but UK governments failed to do so. Now they scramble to do what they can when the chances have been lost, the money is gone and the UK has one third of intensive care beds of Germany. 

 

Mismanagement? Despite all the managers?

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Succcessive UK governments had windfall after windfall, from the 79 billion£ privatisation windfall, to the 29 billion £ to the untold billions of the North Sea oil windfall. What did they do with the billions? Pass them on to the electorate as re-election bribes with lower taxes. So the money was invested in the UK's absurdly overpriced housing market. 

 

It would have been possible to fund the NHS with many billions more, but UK governments failed to do so. Now they scramble to do what they can when the chances have been lost, the money is gone and the UK has one third of intensive care beds of Germany. 

 

Mismanagement? Despite all the managers?

I think one will find that the NHS managers are to blame for the NHS's woes. Government gives money to them and they waste it. The incompetence and waste I saw in the 10 years I worked in the NHS was mind boggling.

However the Blair government was directly to blame for stopping excellent Australian nurses that used to staff many hospitals from working in hospitals and turning to countries with much lower standards to work as they were cheaper.

[JonnyF]

17 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm pretty certain that should the situation really come to that, NO non essential surgery will occur, so if one has been waiting years for a new hip, or knee, be prepared to wait a lot longer. There just won't be the post op beds available.

 

I strongly suggest that everyone should read the thread about what is happening in Italy. That says it far better than I can.

 

Far as the desired "rush" training for ventilator operators goes, I can only say there is no point saving someone from respiratory distress using a ventilator, if the patient goes on to die of some simple problem like bed sores because the operator didn't know how to look after an immobile patient ( I've seen bed sores that expose the spine because the carers didn't know that an immobile person needs to be turned frequently ).

 

I understand that everyone wants everything done that possibly can be, but sometimes there is more to hospital care than most lay people will ever know or understand. That's just the way it is.

So you're saying there is no point getting extra respirators to save people from COVID19, because they might die from something like bed sores at a later date?

 

I really don't understand the logic there. If post treatment care is inadequate then you deal with the issue of post treatment care, you don't solve it by stopping the initial treatment. 

[Logosone]

The point was that there were not enough nurses to operate the respirators. Not after care.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So you're saying there is no point getting extra respirators to save people from COVID19, because they might die from something like bed sores at a later date?

 

I really don't understand the logic there. If post treatment care is inadequate then you deal with the issue of post treatment care, you don't solve it by stopping the initial treatment. 

That's not what I meant. I meant there is no point using people that have no clue about patient care to operate the ventilators if they kill the patient while they are on the ventilator. There's more to a patient than their lungs. I was just using bed sores as one example of all the things that can go wrong and which lay people do not know about.

If it was easy, nurses wouldn't train for years to look after patients.

[billd766]

On 3/16/2020 at 7:48 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I was going to go work in the US back in the 90s. Passed the CGFNS exam. Ended up in the UK instead. Seems that was a good decision.

Nurses always seem to be expected to look after more patients, but that might sometimes be that they just can't get nurses, rather than to make a profit like in the US. My London hospital demoted all the senior nurses to keep more money, but I doubt the consultants were paid less. The one wielding the axe was a nurse- I don't doubt she was well paid for her treachery.

 

Sooooo, the question is where will all the extra nurses/ trained carers come from? Is the government doing anything about that, or is it just more machines?

Why don't you email Boris and the Health minister and Conservative MP Nadine Dorries and ask them what they are doing about it? It is no use going on about it on TVF as none of us have any idea. 

 

Health minister Nadine Dorries should have a better idea than most people as she 

has been diagnosed with coronavirus.

Ms Dorries said she has been self-isolating at home. Labour MP Rachael Maskell said she has since been told to do the same as she had met Ms Dorries.

 

 

On 3/16/2020 at 8:49 PM, Crazy Alex said:

deleted post