Pool Pump Capacitor Explosion Help

[carlyai]

My pool pump capacitor exploded yesterday. Other times this has happened I haven't been here and the electrician replaced the capacitor.

 

As a result of the explosion, some of the wires were welded to the capacitor. I think I've sorted out where the wires go, but I'm not sure what the black circular thing is with the screw in it. It marking on it are: 391-208-02 L45 which could indicate it's an inductor, but on the top silver plates is written B150R. It has all debris inside from the explosion and I would like to clean it up, but I'm afraid if I undo the screw it might all fall to pieces.

 

So my questions are: 1. What is it?

2. Should I undo the screw and clean it out or just blow the debris out?

 

I'm reasonably sure the white wire from the power terminal block welded to the capacitor body goes to one side of the capacitor and run winding, or red insulated wire.

 

Just thinking that black circular thing could be a thermal cutout, as not sure why an inductor would be in there as you want the I to lead V.

 

Also strangely my contactor didn't trip.

 

[Crossy]

Can you post some photos ????

 

[carlyai]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

Can you post some photos ????

 

I did.

 

Will do it again, thanks

[Crossy]

Hmmm, that went well, in the past mine have just squirted a mystery substance which has gone hard.

 

I have no idea what your "thingy" is from the photos so I wouldn't take it apart, just blow/brush out what you can.

 

Hook up your new cap and stand well back ????

 

[Crossy]

Does the pump manufacture's website have a parts list? That may help to identify the mystery beast.

[19DL86]

Had this happen once with my pool pump a few years ago.  Yes this is a capacitor that's burnt out.  Maybe it was the wrong one, the ones for a pool pump are different than say an AC unit.  Don't ask me why I m not too savvy on electrics.  But there not too much 350-500Bt.

 

PM me where you are, I have a few very good cheap reliable contacts in the Jomtien/Bangsaraey area be out there to fix it.  Don't fret nothing's that expensive here if you shop about.  Good luck.

[19DL86]

Crossy thanks that confirms. Yeah the capacitors have a resin in them, that's what had squirted out.

Edited March 29, 2020 by 19DL86

[carlyai]

13 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Does the pump manufacture's website have a parts list? That may help to identify the mystery beast.

No no parts list that I can find so far. No wiring diagram, not much info.

 

Also strange the contactor didn't trip. Unfortunately it's been all just humming away for... not sure how long. ????

 

I have under and over voltage protection (3 min before reapply) on the power to the pump and chlorinator.  I was outside last week and heard the contactor clunking on and off ever regularly and looked at the phase voltage and it was up at 250 v. 

Also a power supply to my speaker system pre-amp blew up.

 

 

[carlyai]

22 minutes ago, 19DL86 said:

Had this happen once with my pool pump a few years ago.  Yes this is a capacitor that's burnt out.  Maybe it was the wrong one, the ones for a pool pump are different than say an AC unit.  Don't ask me why I m not too savvy on electrics.  But there not too much 350-500Bt.

 

PM me where you are, I have a few very good cheap reliable contacts in the Jomtien/Bangsaraey area be out there to fix it.  Don't fret nothing's that expensive here if you shop about.  Good luck.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm in Isaan near Mukdahan. Practising self isolation. 

[rvaviator]

The electrolyte in capacitors will break down over time - Typical from cheap capacitors - Assuming you can still read the Farad value on the casing and the voltage rating - Buy a new one online - As long as the winding are OK you should be fine.

[OneMoreFarang]

9 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

The electrolyte in capacitors will break down over time - Typical from cheap capacitors - Assuming you can still read the Farad value on the casing and the voltage rating - Buy a new one online - As long as the winding are OK you should be fine.

And if you buy a new one online better buy one from a brand name company.

And make sure the voltage is at least what you need - better higher.

Capacitors fail over time. Good capacitors fail later.

 

[KhunBENQ]

25 minutes ago, rvaviator said:

Assuming you can still read the Farad value on the casing and the voltage rating

From one of the pics it seems 45 µF ("45 micro[farad]"), 450 V.

Seems somewhat plausible compared to deep well pumps.

Edited March 29, 2020 by KhunBENQ

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Hmmm, that went well, in the past mine have just squirted a mystery substance which has gone hard.

 

I have no idea what your "thingy" is from the photos so I wouldn't take it apart, just blow/brush out what you can.

 

Hook up your new cap and stand well back ????

 

Just blowing it out and the top bit rotates in the bottom bit...maybe something to do with adjusting the power factor?

[Crossy]

Just now, carlyai said:

Just blowing it out and the top bit rotates in the bottom bit...maybe something to do with adjusting the power factor?

 

More likely the overheat trip.

[Fruit Trader]

The black round part is a thermal switch, the part marked 150R is a bimetalic disc. Common values 140-160 C

[RichCor]

18 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

The black round part is a thermal switch, the part marked 150R is a bimetalic disc. Common values 140-160 C

Looks as though the thermal switch (or what's left of it) should slip right up out of molded case receptacle so he can see the rest of the imprint. 

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

Looks as though the thermal switch (or what's left of it) should slip right up out of molded case receptacle so he can see the rest of the imprint. 

 

[carlyai]

All back up and running.

 

I'll have to contact the manufacturer to see what the thermal switch should be set to. Probably doesn't matter if it is going to cutout at any of those C values. 

 

Is the thermal cut-out supposed to have a top on it? Maybe it blew up once before when the electrician replaced the capacitor. He's a good electrician when you're there working with him, but reverts back to some other person if I'm not here or he does something for the missus.

Edited March 29, 2020 by carlyai

[RichCor]

36 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Is the thermal cut-out supposed to have a top on it?

All electrical parts should be enclosed, so I'd say "yes".

 

ASTRALPool has CTX pumb documents available on the interwebs, but I'm not finding anything on correct values for replacement start capacitor or thermal cut-off.

Edited March 29, 2020 by RichCor

[carlyai]

17 hours ago, RichCor said:

All electrical parts should be enclosed, so I'd say "yes".

 

ASTRALPool has CTX pumb documents available on the interwebs, but I'm not finding anything on correct values for replacement start capacitor or thermal cut-off.

Yes I have a downloaded copy of the pump doc. No parts lists anywhere. I tried months ago here and Australia to get a spare set of bearings and seals and no response or they would only sell to agents.

Will try again today.

[carlyai]

Astra pumps won't reply, never have, so now to check out the pump thermal overload and contactor.

So supposing the thermal overload is faulty, I could just take it out and stap the connections to it, then just relying on the contactor to operate on a fault. 

I have pressed the 'test' on the contactor and it works and disconnects power to the pump and chlorinator. So why didn't the contactor trip when I had the fault?

If the capacitor went open circuit on failure, and all the current is going thru the motor run windings, these would seem to present a near short circuit to the supply, so the contactor should have operated.

Maybe my contactor trip current is incorrectly adjusted?

 

It's many years since I did any motor theory.

 

Any suggestions?

[carlyai]

Right then, another executive decision, apart from Kuchinari functioning as normal (nearly), I think I'll get my heat gun out, start the pump and play the gun on the thermal cutout switch and see what happens with the contactor etc. Plan C.

[carlyai]

On 3/31/2020 at 6:49 AM, carlyai said:

Astra pumps won't reply, never have, so now to check out the pump thermal overload and contactor.

So supposing the thermal overload is faulty, I could just take it out and stap the connections to it, then just relying on the contactor to operate on a fault. 

I have pressed the 'test' on the contactor and it works and disconnects power to the pump and chlorinator. So why didn't the contactor trip when I had the fault?

If the capacitor went open circuit on failure, and all the current is going thru the motor run windings, these would seem to present a near short circuit to the supply, so the contactor should have operated.

Maybe my contactor trip current is incorrectly adjusted?

 

It's many years since I did any motor theory.

 

Any suggestions?

Well I found a thread going back to 2018 and it was explained that the overload should be set to the motor current on the motor plate. 

It's all coming back now. 

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

Those cheap Chinese capacitors have been the death of many electronics for the past 20 or so years. You can find older electronics without this issue.

 

Back when I was doing computer repairs, people came in with their dead machines, bulging capacitors on the motherboard, on which MADE IN CHINA was proudly displayed. Wasn't such a problem with Made in Taiwan in years prior. Then later, even the iMac I bought myself was recalled for this very issue.

 

Few more years later, everyone's shiny new LCD TV they just had for a few years started going out. Friends were telling me, hey man, could you come take a look at it? There were those capacitors again. Sometimes changing just the capacitor did the trick, while others, saving pennies on that part had wasted their several hundred dollar machine.

 

Then finally, about 5 years ago, was the "hoverboard" craze that started burning down people's houses. People were leaving them plugged in to charge, and you guessed it, a cheap capacitor had failed to regulate the voltage.

 

[Fruit Trader]

27 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Those cheap Chinese capacitors have been the death of many electronics for the past 20 or so years. You can find older electronics without this issue.

Unfortunately, the failed capacitor here came from the Italian stable.

[VocalNeal]

Did you use a 25 microfarad capacitor? 

 

I'm still looking for the thermal thingie.

[RichCor]

I hope you get your physical case temperature power cut-off solution squared away sooner rather than later.  I don't think the heat-fin implementation on that motor are meant to be a throwback to a 1950's design, and can almost smell the melting windings from here.

 

I have every confidence that you'll have a completely redesigned electrics functioning even before I have moved a further 5 meters away.  

[carlyai]

15 hours ago, RichCor said:

I hope you get your physical case temperature power cut-off solution squared away sooner rather than later.  I don't think the heat-fin implementation on that motor are meant to be a throwback to a 1950's design, and can almost smell the melting windings from here.

 

I have every confidence that you'll have a completely redesigned electrics functioning even before I have moved a further 5 meters away.  

Memories of Safety-Cut hey RichCor?

The solution is in-hand  ahhhhh. Going back to the 2018 thread and my contactor and thermal overload are sized incorrectly. My thermal contactor is set to it's lowest range at 11 A, but the motor is rated at 8.3 A, so I'm going to try to find a different valued thermal overload. Will get back intouch with Fruit Trader on this thread. Thanks.

Edited April 1, 2020 by carlyai
Spelling

[carlyai]

17 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Unfortunately, the failed capacitor here came from the Italian stable.

Dear Fruit Trader, I found an old thread where you provided ExAPert advice on my Contactor and Thermal overload. 

The short story was that I bought a 2 HP pump box completely wired with contactor and overload. Seems the 2 HP box was not for a 2 HP motor as the contactor and overload were the incorrect values.

The contactor is IPG-22A, and the overload is IPG-32A. According to your 2018 advice I should set the overload for the pump rated current which is 8.3A. I have the overload set to 12 A. Other advice was that the overload should be set to 125% of pump rated current or around 11A.

 

So what I would like is your advice on what contactor and overload to buy for my 2 HP, 8.3 A, single phase, one speed pump.?

 

I have looked at many brands and types on the internet, but don't know what to buy and what is available here in Thailand. Then I'll have to get my mask and dash 100 Km to Roiet, through wedding infected territory, to buy the goods. (bet there's some cheap Hummers for sale in Pattaya from the Russian mafia at the moment).

The contactor has tripped on previous capacitor failures when I wasn't here, so it did work. 

 

Yesterday I thought I'd be cunning (stupid?) and played my heat gun on the pump internal thermal overload and nothing happened, so I still don't know if the pump internal TOL is working or not. Better I strap it out and just rely on the contactor and overload. I also noted my pump box Amp meter is not working any more and will have to investigate another current meter part. Thanks.

 

 

[carlyai]

18 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Did you use a 25 microfarad capacitor? 

 

I'm still looking for the thermal thingie.

Seems I can't source my pump thermal overload in Thailand.  Seems what they do here is remove it and rewire around it and rely on the external thermal overload and contactor.

When I wasn't here and the capacitor blew the previous 2 times my electrician came down and fixed it and bought a few spare capacitors as he said, from experience, the capacitors blow up a lot.