Thais in Pattaya concerned by foreigners not wearing face masks

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Okay, I looked up the current data, just for you. The current mortality rate for Germany is still 0,73%, for South Korea 1.58. 

 

So the "now" statistics still say Germany's mortality rate is half as large as South Koreas, where everyone wears a mask.

Early March when South Korea first saw a trend of daily new infection counts dropping, there were 42 deaths from 6200 infections, putting the rate at 0.67%. Germany has barely started to trend down, and is already at 0.73%, worse than Korea. The odds are good, that Germany will ultimately see a death rate exceeding 1.5% as well.

 

Do you admit this might happen, or are you utterly convinced that 0.73% is around the peak mortality rate?

[david555]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

You will not know for 4-5 days. Those 4-5 days will spread.

 

 

I not worry myself. 

I worry about other people. Thousands people die everyday now.

 

If I get it I will not die, because young, healthy, female. 

 

I worry that kill somebody. Must be resposabilty for other people. 

 

I also worry the economy. If longer time = more loss for many people.

If I get it I will not die, because young, healthy, female.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/27/french-teen-is-youngest-known-to-die-from-coronavirus-in-europe/

a

And she was even a very beautiful one ….. a pity such a young life destroyed  

[Jingthing]

27 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

Show the numbers to back it up

That's not realistic.

But we do know this.

The flimsy masks allow virus to enter either through the mask or from the openings on all sides.

People touch their faces no matter how hard they might try not to.

Hands potentially touch virus.

Hands touch faces or masks.

People are often adjusting their masks and/or taking them on or off to talk or eat.

If virus was on their hands they are touching virus again.

When virus gets on a mask if it can be breathed in.

Obviously the flimsy ones are for one use only.

I don't see that the flimsy masks offer protection from virus entering and as detailed wearing them adds extra risks.

 

They ARE good to block SPRAYS from coughs and sneezes from people wearing them, so if they're infected, they protect OTHERS.

 

So people that are coughing and sneezing should wear them. 

Such people might know that they just have an allergy but unprotected sneezing these days does upset people, so … 

 

The N95 masks do block the virus mostly but --

they are meant to be professionally fitted

off the shelf ones will have gaps

they are also meant for one use

they are not meant to be worn all day

they impair breathing

asthmatics etc. can't really use them

they are not practical to wear all the time

they are in shortage for front line medical personnel 

 

For the general public, masks are not the answer.

 

What is --

Frequent hand cleaning

Avoiding touch the face as much as possible

Avoiding touching public surfaces

Disinfecting frequently touched surfaces

Isolation / quarantine in case of infection or suspected  infection

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Jingthing

[nightfox]

4 hours ago, david555 said:

OHOHO ….!! I have my first Thai  "saving face" mask !!!

At Theprasit weekend night market just at the entrance temperature guard stand, who also give you a FREE  mask …. now I go live a longer time as this is a " free passage " away from the "Thai lynching mob "???? …..I can go out now for food and be allowed every where inside  … hurray ! ????

 

I feel a part of the community now....????  ????

 

Time is coming to prepare to live in the West again for me  …..,as  too long in Thailand it seems ????

See you had some sarcasm for dinner tonight.

[jacob29]

2 hours ago, Gumballl said:

If a person is sick, they should stay indoors (away from others). If a sick person must go out, they should wear a mask.

 

If a person is not sick, no need for a mask. If a person is not sick and has a spare unused mask, offer it to someone who is sick.

Something like 50% are asymptomatic, that's what has people worried - you don't necessarily know if you're a carrier.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jacob29 said:

Something like 50% are asymptomatic, that's what has people worried - you don't necessarily know if you're a carrier.

That Is very true but as they are not symptomatic they aren't coughing and sneezing. Just breathing is much less of a risk and that's the point of SOCIAL DISTANCING. 

[david555]

3 minutes ago, nightfox said:

See you had some sarcasm for dinner tonight.

Me ….. sarcasm ?…… where you get that idea ….????     ???? 

Edited March 29, 2020 by david555

[Jingthing]

Let's face it -- in Thailand and other Asian countries mask wearing is a matter of conformity and a crutch. It's giving people a false sense of security especially if that's ALL they are doing. When I did go out before the recent sort of lockdown I would often see people wearing masks not even washing their hands in toilets.

[jacob29]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

They ARE good to block SPRAYS from coughs and sneezes from people wearing them, so if they're infected, they protect OTHERS.

That's the primary purpose, to limit the spread. Protecting the wearer is secondary, and efficacy is questionable, but to say it's worse to wear a mask than not - that's speculation with nothing concrete to back it up. Meaning there is no scientific study I'm aware of that has quantified it. It would need to be laden with caveats (you touched the wrong part of the mask, you licked the mask afterwards, etc). Just touching the straps on the mask won't increase your risk. Does touching the part where you breathe, allow you to inhale? No idea. What is the mechanism of transmission, where is the science to back this up?

 

If someone bites their nails, or rubs their eye, we don't need to speculate on how the virus entered the mucous membrane, as it's obvious.

[jacob29]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That Is very true but as they are not symptomatic they aren't coughing and sneezing. Just breathing is much less of a risk and that's the point of SOCIAL DISTANCING. 

I'm quite sensitive to others coughing now in the environment. Just today when getting some food, one staff member behind the counter with light cough. Motorbike guy on the side of the road coughs as I walk past. The guy crossing the road let out a wicked wet sneeze, glad I wasn't nearby. I doubt they're carriers, but people cough a lot in general day to day. Never mind the occasional involuntary spray when people are talking (aka say it don't spray it).

[Logosone]

47 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

South Korea was at 0.6% and has been slowly growing. It has over doubled since then. The mortality rate continues to grow after new infections taper off. You explain to me, why Germany won't see the same result?

 

Germany (pop 80m) 60k cases, 455 deaths. Korea (pop 50m) 10k cases 152 deaths. Please don't try and argue that a higher infection count is indicative of success. Masks aren't about lowering mortality rate, it's about containing the spread. South Korea clearly shows better results.

It might, Germany's mortality rate could go up. But right now it is half of South Korea's, and a lot less than China's, where btw everyone also wears a mask.

 

We both know these figures are meaningless, because unless you know every single case you can not know the actual mortality rate. Actually given the fact that real number of cases is at least ten or twenty time higher, probably more, the more you identify the better your testing program is. And clearly Germany is identifying far more cases, because it is testing better than South Korea.

 

There is no final evidence that South Korea has contained the spread best. By that token Zimbabwe with 0 cases has dealt with the pandemic the best. The more cases you identify, the better you're doing, because the real numbers are 20 or 30 times higher. However deaths are clear, for obvious reasons. And Germany's mortality rate is half of South Korea's.

 

South Korea did well. Germany did better. And without wearing masks.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Logosone

[Jingthing]

I have some questions. Maybe somebody knows.

 

So for people not showing symptoms and just breathing are they really much of an infection risk just breathing normally in public? Obviously if they kiss such a person or shake their hands, etc. they are, but just breathing?

 

Also above the dose of virus needed to infect. So these bad hombres are submicroscopic and there are millions of them? Can you be infected by just one or does a take a large dose?

[Logosone]

36 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

Early March when South Korea first saw a trend of daily new infection counts dropping, there were 42 deaths from 6200 infections, putting the rate at 0.67%. Germany has barely started to trend down, and is already at 0.73%, worse than Korea. The odds are good, that Germany will ultimately see a death rate exceeding 1.5% as well.

 

Do you admit this might happen, or are you utterly convinced that 0.73% is around the peak mortality rate?

Of course it could happen, anything could happen. This virus does whatever it wants. There could be a superspreading event and Germany could suddenly have the worst mortality rate of all.

 

But I thought you wanted "now" figures?????

 

Frankly, I do think Germany's icu units and doctors are the best, and certainly better than South Korea's. But we'll see after this pandemic what the mortality rates look like. The big differences should definitely get smaller.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Logosone

[Logosone]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I have some questions. Maybe somebody knows.

 

So for people not showing symptoms and just breathing are they really much of an infection risk just breathing normally in public? Obviously if they kiss such a person or shake their hands, etc. they are, but just breathing?

 

Also above the dose of virus needed to infect. So these bad hombres are submicroscopic and there are millions of them? Can you be infected by just one or does a take a large dose?

Yes, asymptomatic carriers are a real infection risk, theoretically they could just clear their throat and expel cloud of virus into the air which could linger in the air for two hours. But that's very theoretical, the odds are very small.

 

There are 10 million viruses in a drop of sea water. So the amounted needed for an infection is physically small. I hope you're not asking how many viruses it takes.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Logosone

[jacob29]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Actually given the fact that real number of cases is at least ten or twenty time higher, probably more, the more you identify the better your testing program is. And clearly Germany is identifying far more cases, because it is testing better than South Korea.

If we take this to be true, that means South Korea's 'true' mortality rate could be lower than Germany. Which contradicts your claims Germany has a lower mortality rate.

 

The reason we know Korea doesn't have 20-30x the number of identified cases, is their death count wouldn't have leveled out. Each death today is from cases detected weeks ago. They have aggressive contact tracing, once a new case is identified, it triggers off a new batch of testing for anyone who was in contact. If a new death came out of nowhere, they would be testing everyone who was in contact and uncover the new cluster. That hasn't happened. They are detecting new cases, but they're not uncovering new massive clusters.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Yes, asymptomatic carriers are a real infection risk, theoretically they could just clear their throat and expel cloud of virus into the air which could linger in the air for two hours. But that's very theoretical, the odds are very small.

 

There are 10 million viruses in a drop of sea water. So the amounted needed for an infection is physically small. I hope you're not asking how many viruses it takes.

Well there might be a case for everyone wearing masks to make sure asymptomatic people are wearing them as well as symptomatic people. So the level of risk of asymptomatic people just breathing might be important.

 

On the dose question I have heard several times that health care workers are exposed to higher levels of virus and I've noticed when they get sick younger ones seem to be dying more than the general public. So that suggests that dose does matter. 

[balo]

Wear a towel around your face if you can't find a mask. Make sure to look as silly as possible.  

[david555]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I have some questions. Maybe somebody knows.

 

So for people not showing symptoms and just breathing are they really much of an infection risk just breathing normally in public? Obviously if they kiss such a person or shake their hands, etc. they are, but just breathing?

 

Also above the dose of virus needed to infect. So these bad hombres are submicroscopic and there are millions of them? Can you be infected by just one or does a take a large dose?

I guess you can compare it whit the fact that only 1 sperm must reach the egg cell amongst hundred swimming  or more to create a pregnancy …. so who knows …..anything as this is a very new virus 

[Stargeezr]

For those who will not wear a mask, I hope some of you do enjoy getting this virus, and

be sure to tell us how the experience was, if you survive.  How does the shop owner

know who may be infected, even wilth a common cold or flu, let alone the

Covid 19 virus.  As someone stated you tourists and expats should at least

have some consideration for those around you.

Geezer

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

For those who will not wear a mask, I hope some of you do enjoy getting this virus, and

be sure to tell us how the experience was, if you survive.  How does the shop owner

know who may be infected, even wilth a common cold or flu, let alone the

Covid 19 virus.  As someone stated you tourists and expats should at least

have some consideration for those around you.

Geezer

Wow. It sounds like you're wishing sickness on people I find that sick. The thing is maybe you're convinced that everyone in general public should wear those flimsy masks, but many people particularly westerners are not. Not because they are irresponsible but because they've looked at the facts and evidence including form the WHO.

[david555]

13 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

For those who will not wear a mask, I hope some of you do enjoy getting this virus, and

be sure to tell us how the experience was, if you survive.  How does the shop owner

know who may be infected, even wilth a common cold or flu, let alone the

Covid 19 virus.  As someone stated you tourists and expats should at least

have some consideration for those around you.

Geezer

Can you than also tell your experience and disappointment in case you would get it anyway wearing a mask …..just to compare both cases ….

And BTW I do not, in contradiction with your post …., wish  you to enjoy getting that virus 

Edited March 29, 2020 by david555

[seasia]

My recent experience is that the majority of Thais are not wearing masks.

 

I was about to enter my local 7/11, sans mask when I noticed a sign, English and Thai requesting shoppers to wear a mask.

Fair enough, do not wear one but had one packed.

Put it on, entered store.

6 other customers, none wearing masks, all Thai.

 

Tesco Express, similar sign with also social distancing rules.

Put on my mask, yes it is useless but hey they request it.

 

2 Thais ignored the social distancing rules, pushed in front, Thai staff happy to serve them ahead of me yet I was first in line.

 

Majority of Thais, no mask..

 

Friend of mine was declined entry to Tesco Express without a mask, foreigner.

Within 1 minute 2 Thais entered, without masks, no problem.

 

 

Out of here as soon as flight to my preferred country available.

Could be quite some months away though.

 

 

[smedly]

6 hours ago, Matzzon said:

No problem buying face masks. I ordered 2 x 50 packs. Okay, paid 450 for 50 masks but thats okay too.

were they at a market ?

 

Chances are - hospital waste 

 

They only sell to falang 

 

up to you

[Stargeezr]

I was lucky to have a few masks with me when I was in Thailand. I did not

feel sick, but I was around some people who were coughing and sneezing, so I started

wearing a mask, and it at least kept me from getting their spray directly on my skin.

  There are some posters on this and other forums who are smarter than the rest of us,

who are not sick, or at least they believe they are healthy, even though they have

a kid or 2 around them with colds, flues etc,  but they have not started having

symptoms, so thy are healthy, right?  I call that thick minded, and they cannot be

told anything, as they of course are too smart.  

  Seems like some do not want me to suggest, if they won't wear a mask, and maybe

get sick,  then  I am the bad one to say, okay get sick. Well I feel okay today, but

I am going to try what ever it takes to stay healthy even if that means wearing an R95

mask to try avoid this Coivid virus. Good luck to the rest of you.

Geezer

Edited March 29, 2020 by Stargrazer9889
error

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, jacob29 said:

If we take this to be true, that means South Korea's 'true' mortality rate could be lower than Germany. Which contradicts your claims Germany has a lower mortality rate.

 

The reason we know Korea doesn't have 20-30x the number of identified cases, is their death count wouldn't have leveled out. Each death today is from cases detected weeks ago. They have aggressive contact tracing, once a new case is identified, it triggers off a new batch of testing for anyone who was in contact. If a new death came out of nowhere, they would be testing everyone who was in contact and uncover the new cluster. That hasn't happened. They are detecting new cases, but they're not uncovering new massive clusters.

It could be that SKorea's mortality rate is lower than Germany's, theoretically if South Korea had significantly more cases or if their ICU doctors were much better than Germany's. I think this is unlikely. Here's why, we have seen that the virus makes the greatest impact where large amounts of people congregate, so, bar a few exceptions, generally big population areas. Germany's population being larger I would expect there to be more cases than in South Korea (of course there are exceptions, Italy has more cases than China but then maybe Italy just tested more, can we trust China's figures etc).

 

With more cases the likelihood of a patient dying should really be greater, not smaller.

 

Looking at the number of deaths in SKorea they still look like they have high death numbers, it does not look like their new death number is very low. It does not look like their new case figure has levelled off either. Yes, one would expect deaths today are from some time in the past. It took about 3 weeks for the first people to die in Skorea, ie 3 weeks after the first patients were found. My first question would be, why you do think SKorea's deaths have levelled off? Their number of deaths are increasing by larger numbers than before. Do you just mean that the rate of increase figure is not being surpassed anymore? If that is what you mean I don't think that necessarily means that South Korea does not have 20 times the actual cases vs identified. That could be due to a variety of factors, SKorean doctors have developed greater expertise at keeping patients alive due to experience for example. Even with a relatively small mortality rate SKorea could have 20 times the actual cases vs identified. Why not? 

 

Don't get me wrong, South Korea has done a truly excellent job. Just not as good as Germany. For now.

 

 

 

 

[jacob29]

56 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It does not look like their new case figure has levelled off either. Yes, one would expect deaths today are from some time in the past. It took about 3 weeks for the first people to die in Skorea, ie 3 weeks after the first patients were found. My first question would be, why you do think SKorea's deaths have levelled off? Their number of deaths are increasing by larger numbers than before. 

The infection counts in South Korea have been pretty stable for weeks now (~12% total growth in one week). In that same week period, deaths increased by > 50%. When someone is admitted critical in hospital/dies, that kicks off a new round of testing. So if their deaths increased by 50% from undiscovered cases, it's a certainty that new infections would spike with it. How could it not, these people got infected from somewhere, and will have infected others, and testing would reveal it (otherwise they would have a bunch of mystery cases with unknown origin, sharing no common cluster, which they don't). Also half of their cases are being imported from people returning home, so the growth rate for the week is closer to 6%. 

 

There is no way their 'true' case count is 20x what they've detected so far. As that would imply 100k+ cases in the wild, and that is going to show up as death counts when they pass it on to others. You seem to be assuming these mild/asymptomatic cases can't go on to infect others and result in serious cases/deaths. We know asymptomatic carriers spread it (from super spreaders). We know at least 25% of asymptomatic cases test will positive for the virus (from diamond princess). 100k asymptomatic cases would soon (in under a week) result in a new batch of 100k cases, of which many would progress to be serious/fatal. We're not seeing any sign of this happening.

Edited March 29, 2020 by jacob29

[whaleboneman]

13 hours ago, Yinn said:

Thankyou?

 

Er, it WAS the Chinese, and NOW the farangs. 

You serious? Watch the news?

 

 

Yes Yinn, you are correct. People should watch the news...in two weeks.

[liddelljohn]

Ever worked in a hospital   ,, thats where I got my data , from medics,, cheap one use disposable masks  harbour viruses and germs   and with hot breath  become incubators after 3 hours .

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by liddelljohn

[Stargeezr]

When I travelled through Taiwan, I noticed that most Asian travellers and some

older senior aged non Asian travellers wore masks, while younger aged travellers

did not wear masks, and I even heard a few say, oh well if I get the virus, I will

be fine.  The me me generation for sure.  Unlike Germany, the location of Taiwan

as a transfer hub may have caused more cases, than what Germany got.  As well

Taiwan is a smaller sized island, with large population, and lots of tourists, at

least until they got restrictions. Maybe in a months time, we will see a different

set of numbers of cases and deaths, but for now many more people will die

around the world.  Looks like New York will have a lot more for sure.

Geezer

[RJRS1301]

9 hours ago, Logosone said:

They are, but as usual nobody listens. If you're into  this social distancing thing and masks, you'll be disappointed to know that 1.50 m is not enough. Nor is 2.m. At least 8 metres would be required. This was what MIT scientists found out.

 

The public are currently being asked to keep a distance from each other of at least 6ft 6in. But a new study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) suggests the gap should be four times bigger at around 26 feet. 

 

The study, which was reported by the Telegraph, found that viral droplets expelled in coughs and sneezes can travel in a moist, warm atmosphere at speeds of between 33 and 100ft per second (ten metres to 100 metres). This creates a cloud within the atmosphere that can span approximately 23ft to 27ft (seven metres to eight metres) to neighbouring people. It has also been warned that droplets, which contribute to the rapid spread of covid-19, can remain suspended in the air for several hours. And their direction can easily be changed by air ventilation systems to create 'turbulent clouds of air.'

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8162697/Social-distancing-EIGHT-metres-avoid-coronavirus-risk.html

 

So really you should be 100 metres apart to be totally safe. Good luck with the social distancing.

Although no studies have directly evaluated the biophysics of droplets and gas cloud formation for patients infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, several properties of the exhaled gas cloud and respiratory transmission may apply to this pathogen.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852

 

Please read the study as well as the newspaper report,