Pattaya Property

[newnative]

28 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

 A lot of 'what ifs' there, is that how you live your life, always in fear or expecting the worst?

Didn't mean to steal your opening!    I was typing my response before I saw yours!

[pattayadude]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

No, the condo here wouldn't have appreciated as much

Bingo! that is my point.

 

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, pattayadude said:

Bingo! that is my point.

 

 

    But, you're not addressing my point.  Let's use your example.  The  property you bought is rented out so where are you living?  You still have to spend money to put a roof over your own head--either by renting or buying.  With the example you gave, you buy a property (so you are a buyer not a renter) and you rent it out to a renter who pays rent on it for 14 years and he ends up paying for your initial investment with his rent money.  You end up with the property the renter has bought for you and the renter ends up with, well, nothing. 

    So, again using your example, I just want to be you, the buyer of the property, rather than the renter, who ends up with nothing.  I'd rather buy, pay myself rather than a landlord, and also likely make some money when I sell the condo, while having the enjoyment of owning my own place.   Those ok with the renter's role certainly have the option to rent, which can have its advantages, especially for short-term stays anywhere.    

[Epidemiologist Dave]

A positive picture of the future for Pattaya and the EEC but where is all the water going to come from?

There is a severe water shortage in the area already and no mention of any desalination plants. 

[Leaver]

12 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

yes, why not?

 

Unlike you i'm not a pessimist and this the end of the world is about to happen, most of your comments are very negative about life. I see one member suggested you contact the samaritins which i think is a great idea.

 

 

You can have a 500, 000, 000 baht property in Pattaya, but so what?  Location, location, location.  Pattaya is still Pattaya.  The biggest red light city in the world.  A lousy beach, crumbling infrastructure, poor governance, and corrupt law enforcement.   

 

Just how "shiny" can you make a property when it is in a city of sin?

 

 

[HashBrownHarry]

5 minutes ago, Leaver said:

You can have a 500, 000, 000 baht property in Pattaya, but so what?  Location, location, location.  Pattaya is still Pattaya.  The biggest red light city in the world.  A lousy beach, crumbling infrastructure, poor governance, and corrupt law enforcement.   

 

Just how "shiny" can you make a property when it is in a city of sin?

 

 

Doom, Doom, Doom.

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Doom, Doom, Doom.

Another member has posted there are 125,000 properties currently for sale in Pattaya. 

 

Are you claiming there is a property Boom, Boom, Boom, here?   

[HashBrownHarry]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

Another member has posted there are 125,000 properties currently for sale in Pattaya. 

 

Are you claiming there is a property Boom, Boom, Boom, here?   

I'm claiming you never post anything but doom and gloom, there's xxxxxxxxxxxxx amount of properties for sale, so what?

 

Enjoy life, it might never happen!!!

[newnative]

3 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

I'm claiming you never post anything but doom and gloom, there's xxxxxxxxxxxxx amount of properties for sale, so what?

 

Enjoy life, it might never happen!!!

   Once again Leaver got his information wrong.  He said another member posted that there were 125,000 properties for sale in Pattaya.  In actuality, the member had posted that there are 100,000 properties for sale in Bangkok and 25,000 in Pattaya.  But, let's not bother to get it right--25,000 doesn't seem like enough for Pattaya so let's just say it's 125,000--likely no one will bother to check.  I see a job for him magically materializing in the Trump administration. 

[Pattaya46]

7 hours ago, Epidemiologist Dave said:

A positive picture of the future for Pattaya and the EEC but where is all the water going to come from?

There is a severe water shortage in the area already and no mention of any desalination plants. 

A desalination plant in an area that get periodically very heavy rains seems a strange and expensive idea to me. Probably a lot easier to improve the existing system of reservoirs and pipes.

[pattayadude]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

    But, you're not addressing my point.  Let's use your example.  The  property you bought is rented out so where are you living?  You still have to spend money to put a roof over your own head--either by renting or buying.  With the example you gave, you buy a property (so you are a buyer not a renter) and you rent it out to a renter who pays rent on it for 14 years and he ends up paying for your initial investment with his rent money.  You end up with the property the renter has bought for you and the renter ends up with, well, nothing. 

    So, again using your example, I just want to be you, the buyer of the property, rather than the renter, who ends up with nothing.  I'd rather buy, pay myself rather than a landlord, and also likely make some money when I sell the condo, while having the enjoyment of owning my own place.   Those ok with the renter's role certainly have the option to rent, which can have its advantages, especially for short-term stays anywhere.    

my point is this. Let's assume happily divorced and now single and retired Joe from California owned a house in that state valued  $250k free and clear, plus he had $200k-250k cash in a US bank. And let's assume again this is year 2006 (14 years ago).Joe is single and loves young women but the latter is almost impossible to achieve in USA for a 50 year old Joe with receding hairline, limited income and a beer belly.

He decides to have fun the next 10-15 years by moving to Pattaya and live off  renting that house in USA. Let's say he can live very comfortably with that rental income as long as he owns his own condo in Pattaya. Joe also has style and he likes quality,  so he buys a beach front condo in Jomtien with his $250K and lives happily ever after in his condo until today while living off his rental income.

Joe still lives in Jomtien. he is still happy despite the lockdown. he still lives off his rental house in LA. He still owns his condo in Jomtien.

Here comes my point!

 

His condo in Jomtien is worth $350,000 today at best(that's a fact)

However, his house in LA has  gone up to $1,000,000-$1,250,000(that's a fact)

 

Here is what Joe could have done:

 

Joe should have bought another house in LA in the same neighborhood in 2006.

Rent that one out as well.(2 rental income) 

Rent(instead of buy) that beautiful beachfront condo in Jomtien.

Spend every dime from both rentals on women,booze, travel, rib-eye steaks etc. etc.

but he would be approx. $800,000-$1,000,000 ahead instead of mere $100,000

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by pattayadude

[Phulublub]

4 hours ago, pattayadude said:

but he would be approx. $800,000-$1,000,000 ahead instead of mere $100,000

Again with the selective data.  What if he had bought his second house - to diversify a little, which is usually a good idea (eggs, baskets, earthquakes, whatever) and had decided on a nice house by the sea in UK....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/18/this-is-a-wake-up-call-the-villagers-who-could-be-britains-first-climate-refugees

 

Pus, it is not always about money, money, money.    Buying your own place measn you can decorate and renovate to suit your own personal taste.

 

I say this as someone who has made the decision to rent, not buy, in Thailand. That's my choice and, from what you post, yours would be too.  If I ever returned to the UK I would likely do the same- but not certain, even here, as I often muse about having my own place. 

 

But please stop trying to shoehorn everyone into your box, especially by using totally flawed hindsight enhanced non-logic.

 

PH

 

 

[Rimmer]

A post citing the Bangkok Post has been removed

[spidermike007]

Covid will likely re-set the whole economy. I think we will see significant price corrections across the board. Thailand is in for a world of hurt, after deliberately shutting down its economy. Enormous numbers of restaurants and small businesses will be lost forever, and millions will remain out of work. In addition, the tourism sector will take a year or two to revive, if it does. The very group that Thailand was targeting (lower to middle income tourists from China and India) were the one worst affected by Covid. In terms of real estate a correction is inevitable. The market was already very soft heading into this craziness. Now? Both rents and sales prices will drop. Supply will dramatically outstrip demand, no doubt. 

[newnative]

3 hours ago, pattayadude said:

my point is this. Let's assume happily divorced and now single and retired Joe from California owned a house in that state valued  $250k free and clear, plus he had $200k-250k cash in a US bank. And let's assume again this is year 2006 (14 years ago).Joe is single and loves young women but the latter is almost impossible to achieve in USA for a 50 year old Joe with receding hairline, limited income and a beer belly.

He decides to have fun the next 10-15 years by moving to Pattaya and live off  renting that house in USA. Let's say he can live very comfortably with that rental income as long as he owns his own condo in Pattaya. Joe also has style and he likes quality,  so he buys a beach front condo in Jomtien with his $250K and lives happily ever after in his condo until today while living off his rental income.

Joe still lives in Jomtien. he is still happy despite the lockdown. he still lives off his rental house in LA. He still owns his condo in Jomtien.

Here comes my point!

 

His condo in Jomtien is worth $350,000 today at best(that's a fact)

However, his house in LA has  gone up to $1,000,000-$1,250,000(that's a fact)

 

Here is what Joe could have done:

 

Joe should have bought another house in LA in the same neighborhood in 2006.

Rent that one out as well.(2 rental income) 

Rent(instead of buy) that beautiful beachfront condo in Jomtien.

Spend every dime from both rentals on women,booze, travel, rib-eye steaks etc. etc.

but he would be approx. $800,000-$1,000,000 ahead instead of mere $100,000

 

 

 

      A lot of assumptions, beginning with everyone being from LA.  You can always come up with examples like this.  If you had only done this, look what a wonderful outcome you would have had.  Gosh, I wish I had bought X stock Y years ago when it was selling for Z dollars.  I'd be a millionaire!  Unfortunately, a lot of people don't manage to buy X stock at that great time as they are living paycheck to paycheck.  Or, maybe they have the money and pick the wrong stock.  Or, the wrong broker.  Hello, Bernie!

     Your second assumption is that everyone has $200,000 or $250,000 in cash lying around.  I didn't.  When I arrived in Thailand with my partner in 2010, we had only enough money to buy a studio shell condo in Rayong for around 900,000 baht.  So, we were working with about $30,000 cash rather than your $250,000.

      Now, instead of buying in Thailand, we could have rented for 10 years and invested that $30,000 in stocks or bonds or whatever and likely have done ok.  Certainly one option and a good one for many.  But, we like to own so we bought, instead, fixed the condo up, sold it at a profit, bought another one, did the same thing, and after selling that one at a profit we had enough money to move to Pattaya.

     When we got to Pattaya we rented a studio condo at VT3 for I think it was 20,000 baht a month at the time. Top floor, nice unit for a rental.  We could have kept renting that condo for these 10 years, paying the landlord 2,400,000 baht in rent, and, as you say, buying his condo for him. 

     Instead, we took about 1,900,000 baht of that money we would have spent on rent, bought another studio condo shell at VT3, renovated it, sold it at a profit, and did the same thing with gradually bigger condos through another dozen or so these 10 years. 

     Ten years later, instead of still being stuck in that rental studio at VT3 with nothing to show for it property-wise, we have much nicer, bigger condos in Bangkok and Pattaya, and a healthy bank account.  As I said before, I liked your first story about buying the property and letting the renter pay for it for you.  I just identify as the buyer rather than the renter.  I'd rather end up with the condo rather than nothing.  

    Of course, if you rent and invest the money you would have spent for the condo wisely, you won't end up with nothing.  Likely far from it.  For many that works very well, especially if they are in a foreign country and are not sure how long they will be there or, perhaps, have other concerns.  Many love being foot-loose and fancy-free as renters--go for it if that's you.  Really, whatever makes you happy or gives you peace of mind.  

     However, my investment track record--except for condos--is spotty at best.  I likely have done better these 10 years by investing that original $30,000 in property rather than stocks I would have picked.  And, at the same time, my partner and I have enjoyed owning our spaces and making them ours.  It's been a fun ride and we still have the option of investing the money we save each month on not paying rent.  As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. 

[newnative]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:48 AM, Ron jeremy said:

Excuse me I was wrong, just googled it. At the end of 2019 there were 25,000 unsold condos in pattaya and 100,000 in Bangkok.

so it's 125,000 , not 100k . I stand corrected

     Both of the figures, for Bangkok and Pattaya, are largely meaningless when you actually start shopping for a condo.  I gave a Pattaya example in a previous post.  Here's one for Bangkok. 

     My partner and I bought a Bangkok condo a few months ago.  First, in order to buy, we had to sell our other Bangkok condo, which we did at a profit.  So, although there were 100,000 condos on the market, we were still able to sell--to actually the first buyer to look at it.

      So, money in hand, now it's time to look for a condo to buy.  We knew we wanted to be close to the Phetchaburi MRT station.  We like the area and want to be close to the MRT and also a short walking distance to the Airport Link.  The condo we sold was in the same area but 900 meters from the MRT--we didn't like the long walk to and from the station.  And, the condo was too small.

     With our location in mind--and most buyers do have a location they prefer--automatically that huge 100,000 condo figure was greatly reduced.  In our case, it was reduced to just 3 condo projects that were close enough to the MRT to interest us.  There was a new 4th project but it was out of our price range.  

     We wanted a 1 bedroom and our budget was around 6MB or less so more condos for sale were eliminated.  We didn't want to directly face noisy Phetchaburi Road so that got rid of more choices.  We ended up with about a dozen condos for sale among the 3 buildings.  So, the 100,000 condos for sale are now down to about a dozen or so.  

     After viewing the condos for sale and the facilities and amenities at all 3 buildings, we decided that 1 building offered the most value for our money and we liked the room plans the  best at that project.  By that time, the 100,000 condos had been whittled down to just 2.

     One was 48 sqm and the other 52 sqm.  Both were about the same price but we liked the bigger condo because it had a window in the bathroom, was on a higher floor, had a bigger balcony, and a better room layout.  Out of 100,000 condos, we ended up with that one to buy.

[kinyara]

I would add that perhaps unintentionally buying a property has provided a natural currency hedge if not earning locally, which in my case has worked out at the difference between 70 baht to GBP to 40 baht to GBP. I'm quite happy still owning for the next decade and then selling up to release the equity late in my life, taking the choice of rental properties then without the concern I've been devalued out the country. 

[Leaver]

On 5/2/2020 at 11:46 PM, HashBrownHarry said:

it might never happen!!!

I rent, so I don't care what happens.  

 

I don't see any problem discussing Pattaya's property market, and if it's "doom" than it's doom, and if it's "boom" then it boom. 

 

No problem either way for me.  I am just calling it as I see it.  

[Phil McCaverty]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

I rent, so I don't care what happens.  

 

I don't see any problem discussing Pattaya's property market, and if it's "doom" than it's doom, and if it's "boom" then it boom. 

 

No problem either way for me.  I am just calling it as I see it.  

When I rented, I always calculated what I deemed to be a fair rent by comparing the current value of the house to the amount of rent paid over a 20 year period. They should be equal amounts. Rent x 240.

 

Effectively house values do determine the amount of rent you pay.

[Leaver]

5 minutes ago, Phil McCaverty said:

Effectively house values do determine the amount of rent you pay.

This is true, but for some reason, rent reviews do not seem to be common practice here.  I haven't had a rent increase since I started living here full time.  I don't know why, but I am not complaining.  

 

Also, with more and more property coming onto the market, even pre virus, there is downward pressure on property values here, not to mention other factors that make Pattaya / Thailand a less desirable place to live in now.  Eg.  higher cost of living, ageing infrastructure, visa laws etc.   

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, Phil McCaverty said:

They should be equal amounts. Rent x 240

I think that is rich for Thailand, rents being relatively low.

[HashBrownHarry]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

I rent, so I don't care what happens.  

 

I don't see any problem discussing Pattaya's property market, and if it's "doom" than it's doom, and if it's "boom" then it boom. 

 

No problem either way for me.  I am just calling it as I see it.  

You're very negative though, this is a great time for companies / business's to upgrade or restructure as they're going to have no custom anyway for a while. When things do kick off again they'll be all shiny and new.

[Phil McCaverty]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I think that is rich for Thailand, rents being relatively low.

Every time I've rented in Thailand, I've had to batter potential landlords down to that figure.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, Phil McCaverty said:

Every time I've rented in Thailand, I've had to batter potential landlords down to that figure.

Really, mind you, I overpaid on my first rental... but would be paying much less these days.

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You're very negative though, this is a great time for companies / business's to upgrade or restructure as they're going to have no custom anyway for a while. When things do kick off again they'll be all shiny and new.

The topic is Pattaya property, not companies and businesses.

 

Pre virus, there were thousands of properties on the market in Pattaya, many have been on the market for years, yes, years.  This is while they continue to build more. 

 

Post virus, there will still be thousands of properties still on the market, maybe more, but a lot less buyers.

 

It will be a race to the bottom to clinch a sale with what few buyers are around.

 

If you disagree with the above, I would be interested to hear your argument, but I do not see how you can dismiss the above as simply being "negative."    

 

If you say the property market here is in good shape, perhaps you can post some "positive" data on Pattaya's property market.   

[HashBrownHarry]

5 hours ago, Leaver said:

The topic is Pattaya property, not companies and businesses.

 

Pre virus, there were thousands of properties on the market in Pattaya, many have been on the market for years, yes, years.  This is while they continue to build more. 

 

Post virus, there will still be thousands of properties still on the market, maybe more, but a lot less buyers.

 

It will be a race to the bottom to clinch a sale with what few buyers are around.

 

If you disagree with the above, I would be interested to hear your argument, but I do not see how you can dismiss the above as simply being "negative."    

 

If you say the property market here is in good shape, perhaps you can post some "positive" data on Pattaya's property market.   

you've answered you're own question, pre virus loads of properties on the market, post virus the same, what's your point?

[Central Pattaya]

[WillyPlatt]

On 5/3/2020 at 10:08 AM, kinyara said:

I would add that perhaps unintentionally buying a property has provided a natural currency hedge if not earning locally, which in my case has worked out at the difference between 70 baht to GBP to 40 baht to GBP. I'm quite happy still owning for the next decade and then selling up to release the equity late in my life, taking the choice of rental properties then without the concern I've been devalued out the country. 

You make a whole load of assumptions for the next 10 years.

Exchange rates, liquidity of market, demand for property, rental market demand, maintenance costs, possible vacancies of properties in the immediate area etc, political and economic developments in Thailand.

Friend of mine, 40 year Thailand veteran, bought a house outside Jomtein 20 years ago.

Spent most of his winter holiday doing maintenance on it. He bought at a good exchange rate, problem is he couldn't give it away.

Making sweeping statements about the future of any asset class is not wise.

Last week Royal Dutch Shell cut its dividend for the first time since WW2.

 

[kinyara]

7 hours ago, WillyPlatt said:

You make a whole load of assumptions for the next 10 years.

Exchange rates, liquidity of market, demand for property, rental market demand, maintenance costs, possible vacancies of properties in the immediate area etc, political and economic developments in Thailand.

Friend of mine, 40 year Thailand veteran, bought a house outside Jomtein 20 years ago.

Spent most of his winter holiday doing maintenance on it. He bought at a good exchange rate, problem is he couldn't give it away.

Making sweeping statements about the future of any asset class is not wise.

Last week Royal Dutch Shell cut its dividend for the first time since WW2.

 

I wasn't making any sweeping statement or future prediction just my preferred personal plan as I see it at the moment. I agree with all the variables you mention and per my post perhaps the biggest assumption many have made was the exchange rate remaining relatively stable.

 

It's important to have the flexibility and ability to respond to changes that impact your situation and also unwise being too dependent on one asset class. 

 

Wouldn't life be boring if everything was so predictable. 

[Leaver]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:12 PM, HashBrownHarry said:

you've answered you're own question, pre virus loads of properties on the market, post virus the same, what's your point?

Point is, with thousands of properties on the market here, pre virus, and so few buyers, pre virus, and they are still building more, how is it some on this forum can say the Pattaya property market is a healthy one, pre virus? (no pun intended)

 

One member said it's his home, with no intention of ever selling.  I get that. However, if you bought property here, and may want to sell it, or may need to sell it in the future, you will practically have to give it away, or be prepared to walk away.   

 

It appears to me, the best owners can hope for here is casinos are allowed, and the Chinese do to Pattaya what they did to Sihanoukville, which will send property through the roof, but then we can all say good bye to living in Pattaya.  

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Leaver