Boris says wear a mask.

[Bkk Brian]

35 minutes ago, Logosone said:

All of us, the top scientists who advise the government in the UK and decide on policy actually addressed the mask issue. Just like some of peer reviews I quoted earlier, and my own analysis of the studies you quoted, the government scientists also had problems with the evidence:

 

"The government’s scientific advisory group for emergencies (Sage) met on Tuesday to review the evidence on wearing face masks. The Guardian understands that the group is split on the best policy to adopt because the evidence is so weak."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/21/scientists-join-calls-for-uk-public-to-wear-homemade-face-masks-outdoors

 

 

All of us?

 

Thanks for the link

 

"The public should wear homemade masks when they venture outdoors to help reduce the spread of coronavirus, according to scientists who claim Britain’s masks policy does too little to prevent infections."

 

"Trish Greenhalgh, a professor of primary care health sciences at Oxford University who recently completed a review on face masks, also advocated the use of masks in public and suggested an old T-shirt combined with kitchen paper would suffice."

 

Just shows that if they are recommending homemade masks obviously so there is no panic buying and shortages for the NHS then even home made ones do work as this study also suggests:

 

Models show that if 80 percent of people wear masks that are 60 percent effective, easily achievable with cloth, we can get to an effective R0 of less than one. That’s enough to halt the spread of the disease. Many countries already have more than 80 percent of their population wearing masks in public, including Hong Kong, where most stores deny entry to unmasked customers, and the more than 30 countries that legally require masks in public spaces, such as Israel, Singapore, and the Czech Republic. Mask use in combination with physical distancing is even more powerful.

 

https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

[stouricks]

Isn't it a bit ironic that a couple of years ago, Boris was in trouble for saying Muslim women looked like letter boxes when wearing their dibdib or whatever it's called. Now he's wanting everyone to cover their mush!    PML.

[Lacessit]

40 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

One for Yinn to wear at the beach

Damn, why can't posters give out phone numbers?

[brokenbone]

5 hours ago, Yinn said:

Will safe life. Sure.

i'm confident it will save life.

the best use of tvf is to improve your writing skills

until you give the impression you are an educated native english speaker

[DirtyHarry55]

Another more effective way to get the numbers down for the UK would be stop all testing for COVID19

and claim all deaths due to Pneumonia or and Brain Hemorrhage.
Problem in the UK is they are testing over 100k people per day.
New York tried both lock-down and face-masks and the result was the same no slow down.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by DirtyHarry55

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Of course, cause I've read them and we've seen they're not very useful as evidence.

 

I could equally post 5 studies that ALL conclude that facemasks have no effect, and of course you would disagree with them.

 

So the point is that the evidence on facemasks is contradictory, unclear and scant. Every study, including the first one you linked to says that there are not many studies and not much evidence.

 

That's just the way it is.

 

The one study which looks at the ACTUAL results of measures, as opposed to putting 12 people in a room with masks, but rather compares the data of 30 countries in relation to specific measures concluded with absolutely clarity that the data is clear, masks have no effect.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1

You obviously don't like wearing a face mask. Suck it up princess, there are places in Thailand where you will be denied entry if you don't have one. Start with Immigration.

If I follow all your interminable copy and pastes to their tedious conclusion, there is one paradox that seems to arise. If you were being operated on for some medical condition, would you be quite content for the surgeons and orderlies in the operating theatre to throw their masks away?

[mr mr]

seriously this has gone 9 pages of feeding a troll post ? smh. 

 

[Logosone]

9 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

Are you one of the top scientists advising the UK on policy?

 

There seems to be a big divide between the Asian and western medical communities on this issue. I may not be being scientific enough, but I favor the Asian approach for pragmatic/common sense reasons, with which many might find fault. I don't think all the Asian Health Ministries and doctor's associations are led by unscientific fools (or maybe just 1). I think there will be a lot more studies on this coming out soon. I think there are many reasons for differing approaches having success. Obviously, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint.

As you can see by the disastrous results in the UK obviously I am not one of the scientific advisors in the UK. Thank God, I'd hate to be responsible for what happened there.

 

Now of course you left out the second part: "All of us, the top scientists who advise the government in the UK and decide on policy actually addressed the mask issue. Just like some of the peer reviews I quoted earlier, and my own analysis of the studies you quoted, the government scientists also had problems with the evidence". That clarifies what I meant, that some of the UK top scientists, those who reviewed the papers on masks, and myself, all had problems with the evidence in those studies.

 

In no way would it clearly support the use of masks.

 

You mention the Asian and European divide. Indeed this exists. In Asia there is a very clear bias in favour of masks, because ever since the Japanese popularised it it is seen as "our" Asian thing. Indeed it was seen in Asia, not so much in Europe. And yes, this belief in masks is based on "common sense" rather than hard, clear scientific evidence. However, in the medical field, and especially when dealing with minute invisible viruses perhaps "common sense" is not the best way to go, rather hard and clear evidence would be preferable. After all it was considered "common sense" before that going out with wet hair gives you a cold until studies proved it was the staying indoors in cold weather for longer periods and thus greater exposure to other people that have a cold that caused the spike in colds in winter, together with the seasonality of viruses.

 

However, there was actually not that much difference initially in Asian and Western approaches to masks, in Taiwan the official advice was not to wear a mask. However, the quasi-religious beliefs in mask is so powerfully fuelled by fear that outcries from the public led the Taiwanese to withdraw initial advice and reverse position. Same in the UK. And the US. Basically, despite the medical advice that masks actually do nothing, politicians realised that they could pacify the mask fanatics and not much would be lost. As the virus spread this fear got stronger, so the demand for anything that some thought might help grew stronger as well. But the scientific evidence is the same in the West and in Asia. Rigorous adherence to scientific evidence is more quickly abandoned in Asia however. Unfortunately in the West too we have now seen a surrender to the quasi-erotic attachment to masks, however, as the pandemic increases and the increasing uselessness of masks becomes clear, the mask laws will be repealed in due course.

 

Because you see masks have no impact. The evidence says so.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

[Sujo]

A caution disclaimer should be used for those that just keep posting the same link and misinterpreting it.

 

Would save a lot of reading time.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Sujo

[DavisH]

5 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Facemasks work.

They give people wearing them the illusion that they are protected, so that they are not worried or anxious.

Not one is fully protected by facemasks., but transmission is reduced by a high percentage, especially when the infected are wearing them....but in the UK it seems the horse has already bolted. 

[bodga]

3 hours ago, steelepulse said:

This guy is smart, he listens and believes everything the media tells him.......Actually he doesn't but puts this video up so youtube can't take it down.

 

 

He's a  Ginga, can't  be trusted.

[transam]

21 minutes ago, stouricks said:

Isn't it a bit ironic that a couple of years ago, Boris was in trouble for saying Muslim women looked like letter boxes when wearing their dibdib or whatever it's called. Now he's wanting everyone to cover their mush!    PML.

Totally different problem..

[Logosone]

25 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

 

Models show that if 80 percent of people wear masks that are 60 percent effective, easily achievable with cloth, we can get to an effective R0 of less than one. That’s enough to halt the spread of the disease. Many countries already have more than 80 percent of their population wearing masks in public, including Hong Kong, where most stores deny entry to unmasked customers, and the more than 30 countries that legally require masks in public spaces, such as Israel, Singapore, and the Czech Republic. Mask use in combination with physical distancing is even more powerful.

 

https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

 

That is of course dangerous nonsense, to say that masks can halt the spread of the disease. Like previous "modelling" this pseudo scientific position is simply not borne out by the facts. Because of course the real world contains far too many variables that modellers can not include in their modelling.

 

How much better for a study to look at the actual results. To compare the effect of specific measures in 30 countries and not to postulize on supposed "models" but rather to look at the actual result.

 

The study you reject out of hand, actually looked at the Czech Republic. In that country the mandatory wearing of masks saw death rates increase, there was no benefit to wearing masks at all. The data was so clearly against masks the researchers even considered if wearing masks could increase the risk of transmission.

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

So yes, mask wearing has been made mandatory in Czech republic. Has it had any effect? No.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Logosone

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If I follow all your interminable copy and pastes to their tedious conclusion, there is one paradox that seems to arise. If you were being operated on for some medical condition, would you be quite content for the surgeons and orderlies in the operating theatre to throw their masks away?

As they always give you antibiotics after surgery, it probably wouldn't matter.

I'd be OK with it, assuming I'd be OK with a Thai doctor cutting me open ..... which I'm not.

Remember, every Thai medical student that had the money to pay the course fees ....... passed. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by BritManToo

[Yankeesvsredsox]

If your mingling with other people in close proximity wear the mask!

If your sick wear the mask! If the laws say it do it,especially if you live or visit another country

[ianezy0]

2 hours ago, Canuck1966 said:

One thing that is interesting is that the virus can enter through the eyes too

Where is the guidance for goggles/glasses etc???

What's the point of a mask if your eyes are exposed

 

As I understand it, if it is you who are tested positive , the wearing of a mask can help in protecting you against infecting others. So it wouldn’t really matter if you wore glasses or not.

Now it could be a different story if you were protecting yourself against someone who is positive.

Edited May 12, 2020 by ianezy0

[DavisH]

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Because you see masks have no impact. The evidence says so.

No impact, after other interventions are accounted for - that sutdy was based in Europe, right? What about elsewhere, where the government has late or lax enforcement of other preventative measures. Obviously, in vertain situations, masks must help, such as when in close contact with the sick. Otherwise, doctors and nurses wouldn't bother with them. 

I have no problems wearign a mask, as long as it's not taking a mask away from a frontline worker. It needs to be worn correctly, of course. 

[White Christmas13]

4 hours ago, Yinn said:

The France boss also say the same for France.

i think soon all euro will be follow Thailand now.

 

Maybe Europe will follow Australia and New Zealand where nobody wears a mask

[Logosone]

35 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No I'm saying that data was only derived from 14 countries on mask wearing and even in those, they were introduced far to late to make any comparison accurate, you'll also notice they acknowledge that another study concluded that community facemask use could reduce the spread of COVID-19:

 

Our findings on facemasks or coverings are perhaps counterintuitive especially given the strong debate on their use. In a recent systematic review we concluded that the evidence in favour of face mask use outside of hospital was weak. On the other hand a recent modelling study concluded that community facemask use could reduce the spread of COVID-19.27 Our results on face coverings should be considered to be preliminary because the use of coverings was recommended or required only relatively late in the epidemics in each European country. The results for face covering are too preliminary to inform policy but indicates that face covering as an intervention merits close monitoring. 

 

 

You of course omit that in another place, because their data was so clear against face masks, the study says:

 

"The results on face coverings are too preliminary to be reliable but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community.

 

And also:

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk, but as stated previously, we feel that the data on face coverings are too preliminary to inform public policy"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

Of course researchers qualify their results to be careful, but the data they had was so badly against masks, the researchers even seriously considered if their use actually increased the risk of transmisssion.

[Logosone]

43 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No I'm saying that data was only derived from 14 countries on mask wearing and even in those, they were introduced far to late to make any comparison accurate, you'll also notice they acknowledge that another study concluded that community facemask use could reduce the spread of COVID-19:

 

That just shows you do not understand this study. The countries' data where masks were not mandatory was just as important as that of the countries where it was mandatory, because the researchers used comparative analysis. So that is why this research is so compelling. Not only do they look at the specific impact of measures in 30 countries, they are able to do so by comparing the data, ie did the number of dead rise in countries where masks were not mandatory to a much greater degree than in those countries where masks were mandatory.

 

So again, the data is from 30 countries, and the use of masks was not shown to confer any benefit. Exactly the opposite was the case. The data against masks was so bad the researchers even considered if wearing masks could increase the risk of transmission to explain the data.

[DavisH]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

As we've seen Boris is getting very bad scientific advice.

 

A study of over 30 countries has shown clearly that wearing masks had no impact and the death rate actually went up after wearing masks was introduced

So are you refusing to wear a mask in public in Thailand?

[bodga]

3 hours ago, Phil McCaverty said:

As you are generally recognised as a troll on this forum, I will refrain from feeding you.

Does  that  apply to everyone who disagrees with your viewpoint?

[Logosone]

28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You obviously don't like wearing a face mask. Suck it up princess, there are places in Thailand where you will be denied entry if you don't have one. Start with Immigration.

If I follow all your interminable copy and pastes to their tedious conclusion, there is one paradox that seems to arise. If you were being operated on for some medical condition, would you be quite content for the surgeons and orderlies in the operating theatre to throw their masks away?

I would rather shoot myself than be operated in Thailand.

 

Less painful death.

 

Btw, I routinely walk around in Thailand without a facemask, was not denied entry to supermarkets or anywhere. In the hardcore places like malls the trick is to put on the mask for a second, then to take it off once you're in. I see many farangs do this, I saw plenty without a mask where supposedly mask wearing was required. Like everything in Thailand the enforcement is relaxed.

 

The ironic thing at immigration you wear a mask, only to be then told to take it off. Photo time. Nobody died at immigration yet.

[DavisH]

10 minutes ago, White Christmas13 said:

Maybe Europe will follow Australia and New Zealand where nobody wears a mask

Low population density, the threat of huge fines, lockdown, closed to foreigners, island nations...Not really to do with masks there. No need to compare Asia to Europe anyway. 

[DavisH]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

I would rather shoot myself than be operated in Thailand.

 

Less painful death.

 

Btw, I routinely walk around in Thailand without a facemask, was not denied entry to supermarkets or anywhere. In the hardcore places like malls the trick is to put on the mask for a second, then to take it off once you're in. I see many farangs do this, I saw plenty without a mask where supposedly mask wearing was required. Like everything in Thailand the enforcement is relaxed.

 

The ironic thing at immigration you wear a mask, only to be then told to take it off. Photo time. Nobody died at immigration yet.

So that just spreads the notion of "dirty farang". Thanks mate. Is it no wonder Thais have such a negative attitude of farangs. 

Ansd HTF do you know you are not infected? have you been tested? No, I bet you haven't. 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

I would rather shoot myself than be operated in Thailand.

 

Less painful death.

 

Btw, I routinely walk around in Thailand without a facemask, was not denied entry to supermarkets or anywhere. In the hardcore places like malls the trick is to put on the mask for a second, then to take it off once you're in. I see many farangs do this, I saw plenty without a mask where supposedly mask wearing was required. Like everything in Thailand the enforcement is relaxed.

 

The ironic thing at immigration you wear a mask, only to be then told to take it off. Photo time. Nobody died at immigration yet.

Still in your shed then....?  ????

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

As they always give you antibiotics after surgery, it probably wouldn't matter.

I'd be OK with it, assuming I'd be OK with a Thai doctor cutting me open ..... which I'm not.

Remember, every Thai medical student that had the money to pay the course fees ....... passed. 

By "they" I assume you mean Thai hospitals.

I have a cystoscopy every six months in an Australian hospital. I have never been given antibiotics afterwards, just Urals to help with stinging. I assume their sterility protocols are adequate, as that's the way it has been done for the past 14 years.

[White Christmas13]

3 minutes ago, DavisH said:

Low population density, the threat of huge fines, lockdown, closed to foreigners, island nations...Not really to do with masks there. No need to compare Asia to Europe anyway. 

But doctor Yinn can compere Thailand to Europe

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

I could equally post 5 studies that ALL conclude that facemasks have no effect, and of course you would disagree with them.

I would disagree with them? Are they peer reviewed? Please go ahead and post, genuinely interested to read them and make a decision

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bkk Brian

[bodga]

The  whole  topic is a  TROLL  topic as usual from the esteemed POTY, this is a guideline only.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52620556

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/11/what-is-the-uk-advice-on-coronavirus-and-face-masks

Are people being told to wear face masks?

No. The government’s advice is very specific and more limited than that in many other countries. It says people should use a homemade face covering – not a bought mask – in enclosed places where it is hard to keep two metres away from others, such as on public transport or in certain shops. But they are not going to be mandated for general use by anyone leaving the house, nor are they recommended for exercising, schools, offices or other workplaces.

 

The new guidance makes clear that a face covering is not the same as face masks, such as those worn by healthcare workers which "must continue to be reserved for those who need it".