U.S. moves to cut Huawei off from global chip suppliers as China eyes retaliation

[Heppinger]

2 hours ago, Selatan said:

China have started producing their own chips. It has many new semiconductor projects running currently. Even during the lockdown at Wuhan, special exemption was given to HSR trains to stop at Wuhan to unload passengers that are involved in a semiconductor factory there. Work at this Wuhan factory continued throughout the lockdown period. This Wuhan factory is making advanced flash memory chips to compete with Samsung.

Huawei's chip division, Hisilicon, have ordered their mid-range Kirin chips to be made at SMIC (local Chinese foundry) a few months ago. Potentially, only high end Kirin chips might be affected if semiconductor foundries outside mainland China refused to make chips for Huawei anymore. The chips used in 5G Huawei equipment are not high-end ones. Only high-end chips are used in their top of the line smartphones. SMIC was supposed to make the higher end chips too but Trump had managed to convince the Dutch government to ban the export of high-end chipmaking equipment to China. I wouldn't be surprised if China decides to go into making their own chipmaking equipment as well. And this determination to become self-reliant means bad news for semiconductor and chipmaking equipment manufacturers outside China because China is a huge chip importer. 
 

Are the chips developed and coded in China or only manufactured?

[Heppinger]

2 hours ago, Selatan said:

 I wouldn't be surprised if China decides to go into making their own chipmaking equipment as well. And this determination to become self-reliant means bad news for semiconductor and chipmaking equipment manufacturers outside China because China is a huge chip importer. 

I would be extremely surprised as China has zero knowledge regarding chip development and coding.

[Mama Noodle]

14 minutes ago, tpazzi said:

Boy, did you nail it perfectly.  The US and China do take completely different approaches to their foreign policy towards the other.

 

For example, China never attempted to interfere in the US Civil War.  The US, on the other hand, both funded and armed the Kuomintang (i.e. the side which fled to Fomosa in the still technically unresolved Chinese Civil War.)

 

To the best of my knowledge, China has never sent its military forces into any of the countries neighboring the US.  The US, in contrast, has engaged in extended military campaigns in at least five countries neighboring China. All of these have been within the past 75 years.

 

While coming late to the Spheres of Influence party, just 100 years ago, the US Navy still managed to stake a claim and patrol upriver regions of the Yangtze River, engaging in gunboat diplomacy to negotiate favorable business terms for the America trading interests.  To the best of my knowledge, the Chinese Navy has never navigated on the Mississippi, or any of the other major American rivers.

 

Those are vastly different approaches, so yes, you are correct; they act very differently.

 

None of this excuses China from it's obligations to behave responsibly in regards to its international engagements. But awareness of the US's history on the subject should demand a serious examination of any claims of malfeasance by the Chinese and such claims should be backed up with examinable evidence, not simply convenient election year rehtoric. Thus far, the American conversation on the topic of China seems to be rooted in a great deal of the rehtoric, and less of the factual evidence.

 

So were just going to forget about Chinas communist expansion, their role in the Koreas fighting and the rise of North Korea, the worst regime on the planet, their attempt at the same in Vietnam, them staking claim and attempting to build aircraft landing zones in the South China Sea for dominance etc... 

 

The US trying to stop them as much as possible does not make the US the baddies. China has been fighting proxy wars and funding revolutions in their neighboring countries since they started having an economy large enough to support it, they just never had the testicles to suit up and do it themselves, openly. 

 

People who post the way you do, it drips with a dislike of the USA at its core.

[simple1]

32 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

I would be extremely surprised as China has zero knowledge regarding chip development and coding.

An interesting read...

 

https://www.eetimes.com/countdown-how-close-is-china-to-40-chip-self-sufficiency/#

[stevenl]

41 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

So were just going to forget about Chinas communist expansion, their role in the Koreas fighting and the rise of North Korea, the worst regime on the planet, their attempt at the same in Vietnam, them staking claim and attempting to build aircraft landing zones in the South China Sea for dominance etc... 

 

The US trying to stop them as much as possible does not make the US the baddies. China has been fighting proxy wars and funding revolutions in their neighboring countries since they started having an economy large enough to support it, they just never had the testicles to suit up and do it themselves, openly. 

 

People who post the way you do, it drips with a dislike of the USA at its core.

So it's ok for US to interfere in China and at China's borders, but not ok for China to interfere at its borders.

Vietnam is a bad example btw, US foreign policy drove HCM in China's hands, he didn't want to.

 

China is far from perfect, but your view is rather simplistic.

[Heppinger]

12 minutes ago, simple1 said:

An interesting read...

 

https://www.eetimes.com/countdown-how-close-is-china-to-40-chip-self-sufficiency/#

Not a bad article, as it suggests China has no hope of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development.  Want to know who controls global power? Find who owns that Intellectual Property.

 

The Unavoidable IP Problem

The main battlefield is that ICs are still in high demand everywhere, including general-purpose processors and analog devices. The competition between Chinese and foreign manufacturers comes down to intellectual property (IP), and the unavoidable conclusion is that while China’s electronics industry has developed some IP, it is still lagging far behind its international competitors.

[simple1]

45 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

<SNIP>People who post the way you do, it drips with a dislike of the USA at its core.

The member was pointing out foreign interference is not a one way street. The trend towards McCarthyism by trump and his supporters is not a good look. trumps dismissal of intelligence reports as they didn't support his opinions concerning Covid is similar to MacArthur's strategic error in N.Korea. I mention N.Korea as you refer to it in your post, but it's a good point to raise for comparison purposes. MacArthur, by dismissing credible intelligence warnings of Chinese intervention and only accepting intelligence from his sycophantic intelligence adviser, that mirrored his POV, led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and allied forces,

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

Not a bad article, as it suggests China has no hope of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development.  Want to know who controls global power? Find who owns that Intellectual Property.

 

The Unavoidable IP Problem

The main battlefield is that ICs are still in high demand everywhere, including general-purpose processors and analog devices. The competition between Chinese and foreign manufacturers comes down to intellectual property (IP), and the unavoidable conclusion is that while China’s electronics industry has developed some IP, it is still lagging far behind its international competitors.

Not true, that is far from what it says. It is a long term process it says, but in no way does it say 'China has no hope of ever competing let alone dominating ...'.

[Heppinger]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not true, that is far from what it says. It is a long term process it says, but in no way does it say 'China has no hope of ever competing let alone dominating ...'.

Sure the author of the article won't dare spell it out for you as this would destroy the myth of Chinese power.  I will repeat China has no chance of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development.

 

For a country that can't even make safe baby formula.  Hasn't even entered the chip innovation arena at present, if allowed to at all.  When you say long process, ok i'll entertain you.  When the leaders in this industry are placing their chips in the Autonomous weaponized smart drones that will Police future populations.  China may "may" be ready to place their first chip into a microwave oven, that's of course if they don't <deleted> something up along the way, which has a high probability.   

 

The article is targeted at people such as yourself, people with a poor understanding of modern Chinese history, and who like to romanticize about perceived Chinese power.

 

Dai said it could be profitable to look for opportunities at the “edges” of markets. For example, he believes that smart audio and wireless headphones could be an entry point.

 

[Heppinger]

33 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not true, that is far from what it says. It is a long term process it says, but in no way does it say 'China has no hope of ever competing let alone dominating ...'.

Sorry if i come off as a p**k, i know i do, would rather you to learn with me.  I have about 25 years of constant research under my belt, and not all that long ago was in your shoes.

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

Sure the author of the article won't dare spell it out for you as this would destroy the myth of Chinese power.  I will repeat China has no chance of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development.

 

For a country that can't even make safe baby formula.  Hasn't even entered the chip innovation arena at present, if allowed to at all.  When you say long process, ok i'll entertain you.  When the leaders in this industry are placing their chips in the Autonomous weaponized smart drones that will Police future populations.  China may "may" be ready to place their first chip into a microwave oven, that's of course if they don't <deleted> something up along the way, which has a high probability.   

 

The article is targeted at people such as yourself, people with a poor understanding of modern Chinese history, and who like to romanticize about perceived Chinese power.

 

Dai said it could be profitable to look for opportunities at the “edges” of markets. For example, he believes that smart audio and wireless headphones could be an entry point.

 

I can read, and you're confusing your opinion with the wording and implied meanings of the article.

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

Sorry if i come off as a p**k, i know i do, would rather you to learn with me.  I have about 25 years of constant research under my belt, and not all that long ago was in your shoes.

Yes, you do come off as a p***k, even in a post like this you're still condescending, needlessly and incorrectly. If you want people to learn from you your approach is not the correct one.

Edited May 17, 2020 by stevenl

[Heppinger]

Just now, stevenl said:

Yes, you do come off as a <deleted>, even in a post like this you're still condescending, needlessly and incorrectly.

Again I apologize, my intention is not to be condescending.

[rvaviator]

20 hours ago, Estrada said:

The United States industrial revolution was also founded on copying and stealing mainly British and European inventions that were also subject to Patent and/or copyright. Now the U.S. are complaining about China. The latest is the N95 facemask which was copied from the facemack invented by the Chinese Manchurian Army. U.S. companies have copied inventions of my own and other European Companies and even managed to get U.S. Patents on the copied products.

This reminds me of a old John Wayne film – Set in Texas during the fights with the Mexicans. One Mexican General is saying to John … “You have taken our land from us” … John replies something like … “This is not your land. You took it from the Indians and now we are taking it from you” ….. 

its all ‘same same’ … ????

[tomazbodner]

10 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

The USA does not go around acting like China does, and when they do, they are usually invited by the host country or are operating in international waters. China doesn't give two flying turds where they are as long as they feel they can strong-arm and harass without pushback. 

Actually they do. Now you're going to tell me that US always respected UN Security Council decisions? Right... Syria surely invited US army. So did Iraq. Libya was soooo pleased that they came liberate them. Should I go on?

 

But there is one important distinction. Government policies don't equate citizens. So if someone says Americans did this and that... or Chinese did... that flies against their policymakers, not their citizens.

[tomazbodner]

1 hour ago, Heppinger said:

Sure the author of the article won't dare spell it out for you as this would destroy the myth of Chinese power.  I will repeat China has no chance of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development.

 

For a country that can't even make safe baby formula.  Hasn't even entered the chip innovation arena at present, if allowed to at all.  When you say long process, ok i'll entertain you.  When the leaders in this industry are placing their chips in the Autonomous weaponized smart drones that will Police future populations.  China may "may" be ready to place their first chip into a microwave oven, that's of course if they don't <deleted> something up along the way, which has a high probability.   

 

The article is targeted at people such as yourself, people with a poor understanding of modern Chinese history, and who like to romanticize about perceived Chinese power.

 

Dai said it could be profitable to look for opportunities at the “edges” of markets. For example, he believes that smart audio and wireless headphones could be an entry point.

 

Now here I'll have to disagree. The development comes from education (which is global for a while now - people fly around the World to get best education they can afford), and investment into R&D. China used to lead in it centuries ago. Many of the crafts and materials originate from there. After which in the revolution they eliminated anyone who had any brain, and that has pushed them back compare to the "developed" World.

 

Japan started off as a copycat, but then heavily invested in their own R&D, until they came out on top.

 

Chinese started off as a copycat, and maybe a decade or 2 ago invested heavily into their own R&D, far surpassing what the West was investing, so like it or not, Huawei now holds more 5G patents than all the other companies combined. At the same time this one company invests more in R&D than the whole US technology sector. This isn't so indifferent than looking at Japan or Taiwan 50 years ago, or US a bit earlier. It is normal and like the influence of other countries vanished over time, so too, it will for China, once it becomes too expensive to manufacture, and moves production to a cheaper country, maybe somewhere in Africa. And just like US is in state of panic of its failing currency, which, should it fail (and every reserve currency so far did, when hosting countries took too much advantage of it), is facing disappearance of its influence over the rest of the World.

 

Right now global trade is denominated in USD and goes through US-held payment gateways like SWIFT. That's why US can apply sanctions on anyone it pleases - it can cut funds to anybody. Of course any country in this position would fear the loss of such a position like corrupt politicians cling to power with any means possible as they know what's going to happen next.

 

But it's not really China's fault that we ended in the situation where basically everything is made there, and everyone is in debt to them. It is the fault of greed in the West, who for more profit have closed down their facilities in the West and outsourced anything they could. It's the fault of consumers to accept their local brands moving overseas and not ditching them. It's the fault of economists and politicians to have encouraged it, instead of having a long term vision for their own countries' future.

 

Now it's too late. Instead of slow and orderly transition, we're witnessing a car wreck diplomacy, which is not going to end up well for either of the sides.

[Heppinger]

37 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I can read, and you're confusing your opinion with the wording and implied meanings of the article.

I wasn't clear in outlining the information i used to base my opinion on. I shall list all my reason's in basing my opinion and hope i can change your mind.

I'll use the previous statement i made as my opinion:

"China has no chance of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development"

 

The author of the article states that China is looking for opportunities in which they can enter the market, suggesting they have no experience as yet. 

 

The author also state's China lack's internal sources for basic device IP, electronic design automation (EDA) tools, and semiconductor manufacturing equipment.

So China would need to acquire the software, hardware and knowledge to operate first.  The author doesn't mention if the software and hardware needed is patented as i imagine it would be leaving China in the position of either having to develop this first or acquire it through other means.

 

The leaders within the IC industry are supplying Northrop Grumman the IC's needed for the Stealth Bomber B-2's "complex quadruplex computer-controlled fly-by-wire flight control system that can automatically manipulate flight surfaces and settings without direct pilot inputs in order to maintain aircraft stability"

 

In my opinion this information suggests that the "power" that controls the companies producing the chips for state of the art military hardware have monopoly over this sector, and also decide where and whom these chips are allocated. with the intent on keeping it that way.

 

I would also imagine any company/country deviating from rules set out by that "power"  (as with oil) would quickly find a can of "Democracy" opened up on their A**.

 

Please join me Stevenl, no shame in changing your belief.

[Heppinger]

26 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Now here I'll have to disagree. The development comes from education (which is global for a while now

you need to read the article first there is much more then simply education.

 

I can educate myself to become a pilot, doesn't mean anyone will let me fly their plane.

[Heppinger]

 

42 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Right now global trade is denominated in USD and goes through US-held payment gateways like SWIFT. That's why US can apply sanctions on anyone it pleases

Not true. Think about this: If China is incapable of producing the IC's that are needed for their military hardware to operate then where are they coming from? 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Heppinger

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and the replies have been removed. 

[stevenl]

43 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

I wasn't clear in outlining the information i used to base my opinion on. I shall list all my reason's in basing my opinion and hope i can change your mind.

I'll use the previous statement i made as my opinion:

"China has no chance of ever competing let alone dominating in the field of development"

 

The author of the article states that China is looking for opportunities in which they can enter the market, suggesting they have no experience as yet. 

 

The author also state's China lack's internal sources for basic device IP, electronic design automation (EDA) tools, and semiconductor manufacturing equipment.

So China would need to acquire the software, hardware and knowledge to operate first.  The author doesn't mention if the software and hardware needed is patented as i imagine it would be leaving China in the position of either having to develop this first or acquire it through other means.

 

The leaders within the IC industry are supplying Northrop Grumman the IC's needed for the Stealth Bomber B-2's "complex quadruplex computer-controlled fly-by-wire flight control system that can automatically manipulate flight surfaces and settings without direct pilot inputs in order to maintain aircraft stability"

 

In my opinion this information suggests that the "power" that controls the companies producing the chips for state of the art military hardware have monopoly over this sector, and also decide where and whom these chips are allocated. with the intent on keeping it that way.

 

I would also imagine any company/country deviating from rules set out by that "power"  (as with oil) would quickly find a can of "Democracy" opened up on their A**.

 

Please join me Stevenl, no shame in changing your belief.

'the author states' is not correct. There are several people giving their opinions at a conference. 

 

These people in general seem to be of the opinion that it will take time, but they will get to development. 

 

I get the impression that your 25 years of research have lead you to underestimate China.

Edited May 17, 2020 by stevenl

[Heppinger]

Just now, stevenl said:

'the author states' is not correct. There are several people giving their opinions at a conference. 

 

These people in general seem to be of the opinion that it will take time, but they will get to development. 

The facts are clear, China is incapable of producing the IC's needed for their military hardware to operate.  Meaning US companies are supplying these IC's to China. There can be only to explanations for this.

 

A. The US feels the need to help out their largest military threat China as if they didn't China's military hardware wouldn't operate and this would not be fair on China and bad sportsmanship on Americas behalf.

 

B. The power structure in the US and China are one in the same, ie 2 sides of the one coin.

[spidermike007]

Whenever something like this happens, I tend to question the underlying motive. On the surface it would appear that China does not play fair. We all know that. However, does the US play fair? How much espionage goes on, that benefits US corporations, and how long has that been going on? Not saying that justifies the behavior of the heinous deleted govt. They are hellbent on world domination, of that I am sure. And their intentions are very dark and malicious. They are quickly assuming the position of world leader, with the unwitting help of the US, and especially Trump. 

 

However, I believe the issue here, is that Huawei is light years ahead of any company in the US right now, when it comes to development of 5G technology. So far, the little bit of 5G they have rolled out in the US has been pitiful, and merely glorified 4G, in its capability. The US is scrambling to either buy Ericsson, or gain a controlling stake in the company, as it has not spent enough on R & D, and has found itself sadly behind the curve. Qualcomm and Verizon are way, way behind. So, this current battle is far more likely to be about the latter, than the former. Just another example of a US narrative that is the polar opposite of reality and truth. 

[billd766]

23 hours ago, fruitman said:

Chinese also stole a lot of info from ASML , the world's largest chipmaker....in Holland. Now Trump ordered holland to not sell the chinese the latest computer chips...

 

https://www.ed.nl/asml/diefstal-asml-kennis-begon-met-twee-slimme-chinezen~ab8f8d84/?referrer=https://duckduckgo.com/

AFAIR Holland is in mainland Europe, is part of the EU and has its own Royal Family, Prime Minister and government.

 

It certainly NOT a part of the USA and therefore is nothing to do with Trump or any US politicians, and if I were the PM of Holland I would politely suggest that Trump places his "order" far up where orifice where the sun doesn't shine.

[ChouDoufu]

15 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

The USA does not go around acting like China does, and when they do, they are usually invited by the host country or are operating in international waters. China doesn't give two flying turds where they are as long as they feel they can strong-arm and harass without pushback. 

comedy gold.

 

you owe me one (chinese made) keyboard!

[ChouDoufu]

17 hours ago, Heppinger said:

Wrong, development and coding will be handled by Israel, China may do some manufacturing.

they have cash to plow into advancing their technology.  the plan was to move out of "cheap plastic junk" and into more value-added products.  they want to be 40% self sufficient in high tech this year, and 70% by 2025.  i read that by offering up to triple salary, they've poached 3000 chip engineers from taiwan over the past few years.

 

does trump, or high-tech industry donors, see this as a threat?  so sanctions and boycotts and trade restrictions are the way to stop it.  maybe will slow it down, maybe will have the opposite effect, spurring the chinese leadership to move up the dates and increase the percentages.

 

it won't be easy, many obstacles to overcome.  it was only two years ago they announced they were finally able to manufacture their own ball point pen bb's.

 

threats and sanctions only will only go so far.  there's big money to be made supplying chips/technology to nearly a quarter of the world's population, plus their export market.

[tomazbodner]

Actually sanctions usually work the opposite from intended. When you ban sales of something to some country, it will start producing domestically what was imported before, hence improving own economy as the wealth is staying in that country instead of going out to someone else. Trump really did Putin a favour.

 

Now this of course has different effect on China in several areas, being World's factory, but when it comes to export bans - they'll do what everyone else would do. Same things people did when they could not buy stuff during lockdown - started making them by themselves. And possibly found out it's really not that hard. Look at all that hand sanitisers, masks, etc. that seemingly everyone is now capable of making on their own instead of buying from China. Obviously various semiconductors are far more complicated, but logic will be the same: If I can't buy it but need it, I better learn how to make it by myself.

[phetphet]

A good idea, but futile. It will just force Huawei to develop their own chips, (similar to what Apple are now doing). Then not only will they no longer need US chips, but they will sell their ones to other Chinese companies.

They certainly have the know-how and technology to do it, even if this was stolen IP in the past. 

[candide]

China is catching up and reaching an advanced level in several domains. It's just a question of time and in particular on new technology generations and waves.

 

The main problem for catching-up countries lies in the resources and experience accumulated by other countries. So each technology generation or wave is like an open door for them, as other countries don't have aready accumulated expertise and experience. Telecommunications networks are a good example: they were dominated for 2G, rather unsuccessful at innovating for 3G, reached a good position for 4G and are now leaders for 5G. They are also likely to become dominant for electric cars.

 

They do it in a strategic way. Each plan sets directions on which strategic activities to develop, then research programs, public and private investment, subsidies and loans, support from the administration, etc.. follow.

[gearbox]

5 hours ago, Heppinger said:

The facts are clear, China is incapable of producing the IC's needed for their military hardware to operate.  Meaning US companies are supplying these IC's to China. There can be only to explanations for this.

 

A. The US feels the need to help out their largest military threat China as if they didn't China's military hardware wouldn't operate and this would not be fair on China and bad sportsmanship on Americas behalf.

 

B. The power structure in the US and China are one in the same, ie 2 sides of the one coin.

Do you have any expertise

in this area? China absolutely has the capabilities to produce electronics for military use. The Russians have it too, and they have way less capabilities.

What the Chinese lack at the moment the most is to produce ICs for the top scale phones, they require the best technology in order to be competitive, e.g the battery lasts longer with 5nm CPUs. They are investing heavily there and will catch up in a few years.