Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[PingRoundTheWorld]

27 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Deaths LONG TERM are not going to be influenced greatly by lockdowns. 

In general I agree with this, with the only exception that if a vaccine actually makes it to market by winter then countries who controlled the spread will have overall lower death rates than those who didn't. Otherwise countries like Sweden and Japan who did not have hard lockdowns will likely fare the best as they will already have some herd immunity by then and will have no second wave (or third or fourth).

 

It is interesting to note that despite growing case numbers, deaths in Sweden have been going down since April and are basically under 10 a day now. Also interesting that western media routinely fails to mention that fact. The disease has essentially run it's course over there, 5300 dead - 90% of which are over 70. Literally no one below 40 died. Other countries shut the world for this, it's insane. Graph of deaths per day attached.

 

[yuyiinthesky]

25 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

In general I agree with this, with the only exception that if a vaccine actually makes it to market by winter then countries who controlled the spread will have overall lower death rates than those who didn't. Otherwise countries like Sweden and Japan who did not have hard lockdowns will likely fare the best as they will already have some herd immunity by then and will have no second wave (or third or fourth).

 

It is interesting to note that despite growing case numbers, deaths in Sweden have been going down since April and are basically under 10 a day now. Also interesting that western media routinely fails to mention that fact. The disease has essentially run it's course over there, 5300 dead - 90% of which are over 70. Literally no one below 40 died. Other countries shut the world for this, it's insane. Graph of deaths per day attached.

 

I’m very happy to hear that, and I’m sure that all the ones which had been bashing Sweden for their strategy are happy too, as our common goal is minimized deaths!

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, utalkin2me said:

The biggest losers are going to be the countries who appear to be doing "the best" right now with severe lockdowns and few deaths eg Australia, New Zealand. 

I agree.

[utalkin2me]

2 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

In general I agree with this, with the only exception that if a vaccine actually makes it to market by winter then countries who controlled the spread will have overall lower death rates than those who didn't. Otherwise countries like Sweden and Japan who did not have hard lockdowns will likely fare the best as they will already have some herd immunity by then and will have no second wave (or third or fourth).

 

It is interesting to note that despite growing case numbers, deaths in Sweden have been going down since April and are basically under 10 a day now. Also interesting that western media routinely fails to mention that fact. The disease has essentially run it's course over there, 5300 dead - 90% of which are over 70. Literally no one below 40 died. Other countries shut the world for this, it's insane. Graph of deaths per day attached.

 

Right. I think the most critical point you brought up is the media's refusal to report the patterns out of places like Sweden. It is so clear they are simply in denial. I do not blame them, who wants to admit if we did not lockdown things would probably be the same. Nobody can accept that. The dismal truth is lockdowns may make things much worse in the long run. 

 

I think the wiser nations have realized a vaccine is a fairytale from the beginning. A vaccine is like being stuck in the bottom of a hole and waiting for a ladder to drop out of the sky. 

 

Politicians mention vaccines a lot because it is hopeful and positive. But reality will probably prove this hope to be ill founded. 

 

The Swedes have been on the money. They said at the beginning exactly what is happening. When will schools reopen? What if infections rise, do you close schools again? The cycle is endless and the decisions are impossible after you lockdown. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by utalkin2me

[PingRoundTheWorld]

31 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I think the wiser nations have realized a vaccine is a fairytale from the beginning. A vaccine is like being stuck in the bottom of a hole and waiting for a ladder to drop out of the sky. 

Probably true. Although initial human trials by Moderna and AstraZeneca do seem promising and may even be ready in September. It would of course take months if not years to vaccinate the entire world (if ever), but meanwhile if they just start with hot spots and the elderly it could prevent many deaths and get the world back to sanity. As the data from Sweden (and everywhere) shows there's almost no point in vaccinating people under 40, except maybe to control spread. It'll probably become sort of like influenza where they vaccinate the elderly yearly.

 

What we do need though and I am surprised countries have not done is "immunity passports". If someone has a test showing they have antibodies - or in other words immune likely for at least a year - there is zero point in travel restrictions or quarantines or any other restrictions. At this point there are likely hundreds of millions around the world who are already immune. It's time to restart tourism and this is the most logical solution.

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

If you compare Sweden's death stats to the USA right now, the pattern Sweden predicted is taking place quite clearly.

 

Deaths LONG TERM are not going to be influenced greatly by lockdowns. 

 

Once again, I think the best way to put this, is ask yourself if a government can control a tsunami or an earthquake. Not even close. It is the same with this natural disaster, we are past the "control point". One carrier started all of this. I would admit early on in the spread when you can still test and trace effectively government can have an affect, but we are past that point. Governments can do little to nothing to control it. For example, people would already be wary and taking precautions with little to no governmental regulations, as in Sweden.

 

Long term the numbers are going to look similar everywhere. The biggest losers are going to be the countries who appear to be doing "the best" right now with severe lockdowns and few deaths eg Australia, New Zealand. 

All good crystal ball stuff.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

It would of course take months if not years to vaccinate the entire world (if ever), but meanwhile if they just start with hot spots and the elderly it could prevent many deaths and get the world back to sanity.

No way I'm getting something injected into me till it's been proven to be safe by millions of other people getting it first without side effects.

Rushed medications tend to be unsafe medications.

[Tagged]

15 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No way I'm getting something injected into me till it's been proven to be safe by millions of other people getting it first without side effects.

Rushed medications tend to be unsafe medications.

If you have the choice betwen take the vaccine or leave thailand? You will need a vaccine certificate to renew the visa?

[AndrewMciver]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No way I'm getting something injected into me till it's been proven to be safe by millions of other people getting it first without side effects.

Rushed medications tend to be unsafe medications.

It would be given to elderly, and to those vulnerable to the virus - the benefits to loss of a vaccine with possible untold long term side effects would be worth it for the elderly. 

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, AndrewMciver said:

It would be given to elderly, and to those vulnerable to the virus - the benefits to loss of a vaccine with possible untold long term side effects would be worth it for the elderly. 

Being an elderly person can say ......... not in this life.

You want a vaccine, you take it, no need to force one on me, I'll take my chances.

 

The odd thing about pro-vaccination people.

If you're confident the vaccine works, and does no harm, why do you insist on me having it too?

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by BritManToo

[AndrewMciver]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Being an elderly person can say ......... not in this life.

You want a vaccine, you take it, no need to force one on me, I'll take my chances.

 

The odd thing about pro-vaccination people.

If you're confident the vaccine works, and does no harm, why do you insist on me having it too?

 

If you are an 80 + year old, with some pre exisiting conditions, and you refuse the vaccine on the ground in 20 years time you may develop abnormal pubic growth, or an extra toe then so be it. Don't think anyone will be forced. 

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, AndrewMciver said:

...

Don't think anyone will be forced. 

For sure there won't be black tainted-glass SUVs with Vaccinators tracking down every farang that didn't take the vaccine and injecting them on the spot.

But the Pro-Vaxxers have more subtle ways, e.g. no re-entering the country without a Vaccination Certificate.

As @BritManToo said, if they are so confident that the Vaccine works and has no by-effects, why the need to apply not-so-subtle pressure on those that have genuine objections to being subject to these experiments (because that's what they are). 

 

[mommysboy]

On 6/29/2020 at 9:51 AM, utalkin2me said:

Right. I think the most critical point you brought up is the media's refusal to report the patterns out of places like Sweden. It is so clear they are simply in denial. I do not blame them, who wants to admit if we did not lockdown things would probably be the same. Nobody can accept that. The dismal truth is lockdowns may make things much worse in the long run. 

 

I think the wiser nations have realized a vaccine is a fairytale from the beginning. A vaccine is like being stuck in the bottom of a hole and waiting for a ladder to drop out of the sky. 

 

Politicians mention vaccines a lot because it is hopeful and positive. But reality will probably prove this hope to be ill founded. 

 

The Swedes have been on the money. They said at the beginning exactly what is happening. When will schools reopen? What if infections rise, do you close schools again? The cycle is endless and the decisions are impossible after you lockdown. 

Yes well done the Swedes.  But what is right for one country may not be right for others, primarily the difference is population density and the scale of international trading routes.  UK initially followed the same strategy, but had to double back pretty quickly because of the rate of infection and it's consequences in London.  Without a lockdown who knows how many would have died.  Most major economies have at least one mega city- be that by population or commercial activity- and these are the ones where a light hand simply didn't work- whether that is London, New York, Milan, or San Paulo.  That is not to say I agree with long term lockdowns- which should be ditched at the earliest possible convenience.

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Being an elderly person can say ......... not in this life.

You want a vaccine, you take it, no need to force one on me, I'll take my chances.

 

The odd thing about pro-vaccination people.

If you're confident the vaccine works, and does no harm, why do you insist on me having it too?

 

And let the young pick up the tab....again.  You have to despair of oldies, even though I'm shortly to become one.  Perhaps Covid19 treatment for pensioners should be contingent on some sort of property related death tax!

 

Seriously though, this is a time when we must all reflect on previously cherished notions.  The issue of mass vaccination without due diligence would be a cause of concern to say the least.  No vaccine should really see the light of day unless trialed for a good few years imo.

 

One question though, if you did fall seriously ill would you accept immune therapy, which isn't that much different?

[mike787]

Forgot masks...NO need for that junk.

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

One question though, if you did fall seriously ill would you accept immune therapy, which isn't that much different?

You'd need to specify the illness and the proposed treatment.

And I'd look up the chances of success and possible side-effects first.

 

Vaccination for trivial disease like COVID, mumps, measles, flu, no.

Edited June 30, 2020 by BritManToo

[mommysboy]

57 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You'd need to specify the illness and the proposed treatment.

And I'd look up the chances of success and possible side-effects first.

 

Vaccination for trivial disease like COVID, mumps, measles, flu, no.

Not if you were seriously ill in hospital with Covid19?  It would be a plasma drip- essentially antibodies taken from patients who previously had the illness but recovered. It's already being trialed in UK.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Not if you were seriously ill in hospital with Covid19?

Unlikely as I had it in Feb.

Nasty earache and a bit of a cough, not much in the way of fever.

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Unlikely as I had it in Feb.

Nasty earache and a bit of a cough, not much in the way of fever.

Was your Covid-19 confirmed with a PCR test?

 

I had the same symptoms towards the end of February and got two tests: negative for SARS-CoV-2, positive for influenza type A.

[mommysboy]

47 minutes ago, Puccini said:

Was your Covid-19 confirmed with a PCR test?

 

I had the same symptoms towards the end of February and got two tests: negative for SARS-CoV-2, positive for influenza type A.

There sure were a couple of really nasty bugs around even before covid19 rolled in to town, and in my case one was made worse because of a tendency toward tonsillitis.  Thus, in October last year I was hit by an acute illness where I near coughed and puked myself to death within 24 hours, and this was followed by tonsillitis.  I was quite ill for a few days but nothing compared to that initial 24 hours.  I am not exaggerating it's ferocity or effect on me.  Around February, there was a detailed report of a south Asian guy who died of an acute ailment where those symptoms were the same; he was later found slumped in the train bathroom having died of respiratory failure.  The difference was he had covid19, while I accept I just had something else, after all my event happened out of the timeline, and my wife and daughter just suffered what appeared to me to be strep throat.

 

My point is that unless someone has actually been tested, or perhaps ended up on an oxygen, or was around someone who was confirmed, it's impossible to tell whether it was covid19, and most likely wasn't.  The irony is there will be others, perhaps many more, who actually have had the little beastie but who are completely unaware- perhaps they've even spent the last few months cowering under the bedsheets spraying alcohol gel in every orifice.????

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by mommysboy

[Throatwobbler]

23 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Being an elderly person can say ......... not in this life.

You want a vaccine, you take it, no need to force one on me, I'll take my chances.

 

The odd thing about pro-vaccination people.

If you're confident the vaccine works, and does no harm, why do you insist on me having it too?

 

Becaue there are people who can not have the vaccine for various underlying reasons. People who refuse to take vaccines just because they don't want them are putting these people at risk due to their own selfisfness.

[Throatwobbler]

19 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You'd need to specify the illness and the proposed treatment.

And I'd look up the chances of success and possible side-effects first.

 

Vaccination for trivial disease like COVID, mumps, measles, flu, no.

Measles is not a trivial disease.

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/05-12-2019-more-than-140-000-die-from-measles-as-cases-surge-worldwide

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Throatwobbler said:

Measles is not a trivial disease.

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/05-12-2019-more-than-140-000-die-from-measles-as-cases-surge-worldwide

Surprisingly, many of the people catching serious cases of measles in the west have been vaccinated for it.

 

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Throatwobbler said:

Becaue there are people who can not have the vaccine for various underlying reasons. People who refuse to take vaccines just because they don't want them are putting these people at risk due to their own selfisfness.

Let the weak die, so the strong may survive and reproduce more strong.

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Let the weak die, so the strong may survive and reproduce more strong.

If we took this attitude generally, then most of us would have died a long time ago.  We're all weak!

[ravip]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Let the weak die, so the strong may survive and reproduce more strong.

Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing." And they divided His clothes and cast lots.

[BritManToo]

40 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

If we took this attitude generally, then most of us would have died a long time ago.  We're all weak!

Speak for yourself, I ain't no mommysboy!

[transam]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Let the weak die, so the strong may survive and reproduce more strong.

What a strange thing to say.......???? 

Have you been reading Mein Kampf by any chance...?

[Sujo]

9 hours ago, Throatwobbler said:

Becaue there are people who can not have the vaccine for various underlying reasons. People who refuse to take vaccines just because they don't want them are putting these people at risk due to their own selfisfness.

There may be other reasons people cannot have a vaccine.

 

I see trump has bought the worlds supply of redesivir for the next 3 months. 500,000 vials at about $3k a vial. So only in the US can you have it, if it works.

 

So if a vaccine is done, be ready for trump to buy the lot.

[geriatrickid]

On 6/30/2020 at 4:38 AM, BritManToo said:

Unlikely as I had it in Feb.

Nasty earache and a bit of a cough, not much in the way of fever.

Did you receive the confirmatory tests? The common Thai procedure is one test at time of diagnosis, followed by another test  at 15 days. There was a bad cold going around in Jan/Feb. I had it including sore throat, fatigue, bad fever for a few days and persistent cough. It was not Covid 19.