Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[geriatrickid]

9 hours ago, UbonThani said:

They have bars for Christians?

Yes, it is called prison. Ask jim baker of PTL fame.

[geriatrickid]

8 hours ago, tlock said:

Yeah unfortunately people in the US have been brainwashed since childhood to value freedom.  

 I see. And the people of Australia, Canada, Denmark, New Zealand etc. do not value freedom either?  Try ordering an Aussie about and see what happens. Some countries have cultures which place a greater good on society as a whole. They must have been doing something right because their pandemic  management results are tilting towards good and  no one is running about  threatening violence. Theirs has been a caring and responsible approach taking into account civil liberties, and freedom while balancing it against the needs of the vulnerable. There is a reason why they are some of the  happiest, least corrupt countries on the planet.  And it is not as if some of the US governments are not doing a good job either;  Governors like Newsome, Cuomo, Whitmer, Inslee and  even Republicans like Scott and Hogan despite the gross incompetence of their federal government.

[geriatrickid]

13 hours ago, marqus12 said:

"As of 2018 one quarter of the world's population is thought to have latent infection with TB.^[6] New infections occur in about 1% of the population each year.^[12] In 2018, there were more than 10 million cases of active TB which resulted in 1.5 million deaths"

 

Why didn't I even know that?
Why didn't anyone warn me?
Where was the lockdown when you needed it?
Serial killers ruled the world in 2018?
They tried to murder me in 2018?

What is the point of your post? Is it to show your ignorance and to  provide an opportunity to ridicule you?  Do you even know what latent TB is?  

A person diagnosed with a latent TB infection is not infectious and cannot spread the infection in the community.

TB is manageable and can be successfully treated.

TB is an infectious disease that can be kept out of the  population, particularly the world's key economies.

TP patients are not closing down hospital systems as Covid19 has done and it has not killed off health professionals as Covid 19 has done.

 

 

[geriatrickid]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:17 PM, yuyiinthesky said:

It is new to me that an infection with SARS-CoV-2 alone, which are as you certainly know mostly asymptotic, "leaves behind significant physical damage". Did you confuse that with Covid-19, the sickness caused by SARS-CoV-2?

 

If not, please provide a source for this statement, preferably an "undeniable" one ????

 

Now you are an expert in pathology. You have made the assumption that the virus  enters the body and just sits there twiddling its protein spikes doing nothing.  The body will still respond to the presence of the virus and act to clear it. Because  one does not see the chemical and physiological action as it occurs, does not mean it does not occur. 

A classic example of this is a heart attack. Inflammation of the arteries is a key culprit in  plaque breaking off and a clot ensuing. It often occurs without prior symptoms. According to you, because there were no symptoms there was no heart disease.

 

It is undeniable that we discover the impact of infections long after they first manifest symptoms. One does not need to have symptoms to be ill. HIV illustrates this. Once infected, the infection never goes away. In HIV, the infected can be asymptomatic for years before the immune system fails. The infection is discovered once  the opportunistic infections present.

 

Because you do not see the inflammation of the lungs, the scarring of the tissue does not mean that it does not occur.  It takes time before damage presents itself.  An illustration of this is lung damage in coal and asbestos miner workers. It takes years before the impact of their exposure is realized. real enough for you?

 

With the Covid19  crisis there will be a greater amount of data  in the coming years. However,  healthcare practitioners are already finding the damage. This is illustrated by Multisystem Inflammatory Disorder in children and adolescents. It is troubling and of concern because the  cases are being reported now, weeks after infections would have cleared or manifested themselves. What is being observed is that;

- Testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 does not always accompany the illness.

- Many patients test negative for SARS Cov-2, but test positive for coronavirus antibodies.

The above indicates that it is the exposure to the virus itself and not Covid19 itself which is causing the illness. This is nothing unusual and at its core is typical of an inflammatory response that occurs after an exposure to a foreign substance. In this case it is the response to the virus.  In plain english is is like an allergic reaction.

 

You are of the belief that the hundreds of cases now being reported and identified are  insignificant since they are associated with "asymptomatic'  patients. Well, here are the characteristics of the illness;

- Rash or bilateral non-purulent conjunctivitis or muco-cutaneous inflammation signs (oral, hands or feet).

- Hypotension or shock.

- Features of myocardial dysfunction, pericarditis, valvulitis, or coronary abnormalities (including ECHO findings or elevated Troponin/NT-proBNP),

- Evidence of coagulopathy (by PT, PTT, elevated d-Dimers).

- Acute gastrointestinal problems (diarrhoea, vomiting, or abdominal pain).

- Elevated markers of inflammation such as ESR, C-reactive protein, or procalcitonin. 

 

What's next? telling the patients to walk it off, or that they are imagining these physical changes?

 

You have confused not showing symptoms of an illness  with not incurring injury.

With your logic, kids who have repeated mild concussions without symptoms will be ok.

Well, what we now now is that they are not ok and have brain injuries, the results which will manifest years later.

 

 

 

 

[UbonThani]

Swedish flu deaths 3600

World 300k to 650k

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/16/2020 at 11:09 PM, moe666 said:

Chris Christy the world wind from New jersey would not answer who he wanted to die in his family. Talk is always cheap especially about death and dieing

That's a stupid question. Just catching it does not mean one dies- far from it. It's one of those gottcha questions because no one is going to choose a family member to die.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You have confused not showing symptoms of an illness  with not incurring injury.

With your logic, kids who have repeated mild concussions without symptoms will be ok.

Well, what we now now is that they are not ok and have brain injuries, the results which will manifest years later.

Concussion and Corona are not the same. Talk about apples and oranges!

 

The real question is whether we allow vulnerable people to die and save the majority from economic disaster, or save the minority at the expense of the majority.

Governments have chosen the former, and may come to regret it at the polling booths later.

 

If it's so important to save the elderly at the expense of the majority, why is there no lockdown every flu season? Is not every life precious?

[marqus12]

9 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

What is the point of your post? Is it to show your ignorance and to  provide an opportunity to ridicule you?  Do you even know what latent TB is?  

A person diagnosed with a latent TB infection is not infectious and cannot spread the infection in the community.

TB is manageable and can be successfully treated.

TB is an infectious disease that can be kept out of the  population, particularly the world's key economies.

TP patients are not closing down hospital systems as Covid19 has done and it has not killed off health professionals as Covid 19 has done.

 

 

I drove past the house where a white man with a Thai family lives
tarpaulin spread over the gate, fence and windows...
Is that you ???

[DeadBite]

Even geriatrickid cannot post a good microscope picture of a virus, no matter how long his paragraphs are. Virology is a science with no balls, which is becoming dangerous.

There is disease, but no viral disease.

[Odysseus123]

9 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

Even geriatrickid cannot post a good microscope picture of a virus, no matter how long his paragraphs are. Virology is a science with no balls, which is becoming dangerous.

There is disease, but no viral disease.

Ah..there speaks the voice of rampant intelligence...

 

i am beginning to think that the Tralfamadoreans are-not so stealthily-trying to take over the planet.

[DeadBite]

2 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Ah..there speaks the voice of rampant intelligence...

 

i am beginning to think that the Tralfamadoreans are-not so stealthily-trying to take over the planet.

Where is the picture boy?

[UbonThani]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's a stupid question. Just catching it does not mean one dies- far from it. It's one of those gottcha questions because no one is going to choose a family member to die.

 

i could choose 555

[yuyiinthesky]

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Now you are an expert in pathology. You have made the assumption that the virus  enters the body and just sits there twiddling its protein spikes doing nothing.  The body will still respond to the presence of the virus and act to clear it. Because  one does not see the chemical and physiological action as it occurs, does not mean it does not occur. 

A classic example of this is a heart attack. Inflammation of the arteries is a key culprit in  plaque breaking off and a clot ensuing. It often occurs without prior symptoms. According to you, because there were no symptoms there was no heart disease.

 

It is undeniable that we discover the impact of infections long after they first manifest symptoms. One does not need to have symptoms to be ill. HIV illustrates this. Once infected, the infection never goes away. In HIV, the infected can be asymptomatic for years before the immune system fails. The infection is discovered once  the opportunistic infections present.

 

Because you do not see the inflammation of the lungs, the scarring of the tissue does not mean that it does not occur.  It takes time before damage presents itself.  An illustration of this is lung damage in coal and asbestos miner workers. It takes years before the impact of their exposure is realized. real enough for you?

 

With the Covid19  crisis there will be a greater amount of data  in the coming years. However,  healthcare practitioners are already finding the damage. This is illustrated by Multisystem Inflammatory Disorder in children and adolescents. It is troubling and of concern because the  cases are being reported now, weeks after infections would have cleared or manifested themselves. What is being observed is that;

- Testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 does not always accompany the illness.

- Many patients test negative for SARS Cov-2, but test positive for coronavirus antibodies.

The above indicates that it is the exposure to the virus itself and not Covid19 itself which is causing the illness. This is nothing unusual and at its core is typical of an inflammatory response that occurs after an exposure to a foreign substance. In this case it is the response to the virus.  In plain english is is like an allergic reaction.

 

You are of the belief that the hundreds of cases now being reported and identified are  insignificant since they are associated with "asymptomatic'  patients. Well, here are the characteristics of the illness;

- Rash or bilateral non-purulent conjunctivitis or muco-cutaneous inflammation signs (oral, hands or feet).

- Hypotension or shock.

- Features of myocardial dysfunction, pericarditis, valvulitis, or coronary abnormalities (including ECHO findings or elevated Troponin/NT-proBNP),

- Evidence of coagulopathy (by PT, PTT, elevated d-Dimers).

- Acute gastrointestinal problems (diarrhoea, vomiting, or abdominal pain).

- Elevated markers of inflammation such as ESR, C-reactive protein, or procalcitonin. 

 

What's next? telling the patients to walk it off, or that they are imagining these physical changes?

 

You have confused not showing symptoms of an illness  with not incurring injury.

With your logic, kids who have repeated mild concussions without symptoms will be ok.

Well, what we now now is that they are not ok and have brain injuries, the results which will manifest years later.

 

 

 

 

 

Like most of your posts, another collection of half thought through ideas, but not an answer to the question, and no source.

 

To remind you, the question was:
 

 

Quote

It is new to me that an infection with SARS-CoV-2 alone, which are as you certainly know mostly asymptotic, "leaves behind significant physical damage". Did you confuse that with Covid-19, the sickness caused by SARS-CoV-2?

 

If not, please provide a source for this statement, preferably an "undeniable" one 

Try again!

[yuyiinthesky]

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Now you are an expert in pathology.

I have not claimed that, but thanks for acknowledging it. I’m flattered ????

[yuyiinthesky]

9 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

What is being observed is that;

- Testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 does not always accompany the illness.

- Many patients test negative for SARS Cov-2, but test positive for coronavirus antibodies.

The above indicates that it is the exposure to the virus itself and not Covid19 itself which is causing the illness.

This is utter nonsense. you didn’t understand anything about the PCR and the antibody tests and what they mean, when they can be positive or not, and what they have to do with Covid-19. What a confusion!

Please can somebody of his friends (lockdown fans, our usual scaremongers here) explain him that and make him understand! Please!

[Odysseus123]

14 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

Where is the picture boy?

Who are you calling "boy"-my friend?

 

Fresh from Dixie are you?

 

Otherwise i will treat your nonsensical post with unfailing good humour..as I always do.

[DeadBite]

4 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Who are you calling "boy"-my friend?

 

Fresh from Dixie are you?

 

Otherwise i will treat your nonsensical post with unfailing good humour..as I always do.

Next time if you don’t understand something, carry on and don’t insult, or try to silence me and prove me “nonsensical” by showing me the microscope picture of any virus you like

[Odysseus123]

Just now, DeadBite said:

Next time if you don’t understand something, carry on and don’t insult, or try to silence me and prove me “nonsensical” by showing me the microscope picture of any virus you like

Ah..boy...

 

'Tis a public forum how ,on earth,could I possibly silence you?

 

How are things going in the land of cotton?

[yuyiinthesky]

10 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

What is the point of your post? Is it to show your ignorance and to  provide an opportunity to ridicule you?  Do you even know what latent TB is?  

A person diagnosed with a latent TB infection is not infectious and cannot spread the infection in the community.

TB is manageable and can be successfully treated.

TB is an infectious disease that can be kept out of the  population, particularly the world's key economies.

TP patients are not closing down hospital systems as Covid19 has done and it has not killed off health professionals as Covid 19 has done.

 

 

What is the point of your post?

Are you indeed claiming that nobody dies from TB?

Or not enough to deserve your attention?

[DeadBite]

29 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Ah..boy...

 

'Tis a public forum how ,on earth,could I possibly silence you?

 

How are things going in the land of cotton?

You keep searching for the cotton boy, I have more serious endeavors: like finding out if science has really ever isolated a virus!

[Odysseus123]

8 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

You keep searching for the cotton boy, I have more serious endeavors: like finding out if science has really ever isolated a virus!

No Boll weevils even..?

 

You are a scientist?Hot on the trail of the evil virus and its cure?

 

Full marks to you then...you might get a Nobel Prize one day.

 

However,even if you do not,I am very sure that you will give it your best shot...

Edited May 18, 2020 by Odysseus123

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, DeadBite said:

Where is the picture boy?

[DeadBite]

16 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

No Boll weevils even..?

 

You are a scientist?Hot on the trail of the evil virus and its cure?

 

Full marks to you then...you might get a Nobel Prize one day.

 

However,even if you do not,I am very sure that you will give it your best shot...

You are trying to be ironic with me? You should be ashamed of yourself that in this day and age you cannot produce a picture of something you talk so surely about.
The invisible radio waves can be shown given the appropriate receiver, the invisible atom can give energy when split, where is the scientific breakthrough that proves the virus existence? There is none, it’s all based on faulty 1800’s science.
There is disease, but Virology is still just a theory. 

[marqus12]

In tanzania, samples were taken from goats, pheasants and from a banana tree
then sent to a specialized laboratory that found all these samples had coronavirus
????

[steelepulse]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Sweden is 8th in terms of deaths per 1M pop, at the moment. Unfortunately, still a long way to go yet before we see who finally comes off worst.

 

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

You're absolutely right, as in when the second and third waves hit and we come to find out Sweden has gone through the virus and the rest of the countries haven't.  Then these lockdown countries will be seeing more cases.

 

One way or another, the virus is going to go through the population at some point in time.  

 

 

[Sheryl]

On 5/17/2020 at 1:01 PM, chessman said:

I don't think anybody is doing that. I have a lot of family in Sweden and try to be as objective as possible, I certainly don't want harm to come to Sweden or the people of any country.

 

But you need to quote those figures showing mortality because they are worrying. A lot of these arguments started when Sweden had similar figures to Denmark and Norway...  It is very noticeable that the trend is not looking good for Sweden. Not only are the figures high but they are increasing more than in other countries.

 

Yes, it is clear that Sweden's approach has meant more lives lost.

 

Whether this is an acceptable trade off for a lessened (but not neglible) economic impact is for the Swedish people to decide.

 

It has not however overwhelmed or collapsed the health system so it is possible to do if people are willing to pay the price. This is NOT the case in all countries, to put it mildly. In New York City the health system was totally overwhelmed and effectively dysfunctional causing many thousands of death from all causes, many of them happening at home as people gave up on the idea of seeking medical care. This included people of all ages and all conditions e.g. heart attacks, strokes as well as COVID. Morgues could nto cope with the bodies and really horrific scenes unfolded. Avoiding lock down was not an option there, and had it been done sooner, say when it was done on the West Coast, the worst would have been averted. I don't say that as a criticism of the decision makers, hindsight is always 20-20 and shutting down a major economic center like NYC is nto to be done lightly.  But the 'Swedish Model" was not and is not an option there.

 

UK's health system would certainly have collapsed if they had not enacted lockdown, as it was I think came close.

 

There are a lot of country specific factors to take into account in something like this. 

[UbonThani]

Lives lost would need to be measured over longer.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

Simple1

 

Not sure where you come up with the statement.  Try looking something up one time.  It might surprise you that the facts don't jive with your preconceived "knowledge" 

In terms of the economy.  you would have to do a lot of explaining to convince even an imbecile that somehow Sweden who did not shut down its economy would be worse off than virtually any other country on earth.  The USA now has 25% of its total labor force applying for unemployment.  The UK with strict lock down is much higher than Sweden and Sweden's death rate per million is not statistically higher than the USA.  Two additional points.  The "death toll" in virtually every other country does not include those who committed suicide, spousal abuse deaths, and drug overdoses from people in such despair over not working.  Second Swedens is already approaching 25% - 30% herd immunity and at approximately 60% it is thought the progression of the disease is halted since it has a limited number of new people to infect and continue to spread the disease.  That means that in the future, Sweden's infections/and death rates would fall faster than the rest of the world.  

First of all the numbers in my posts were from credible sources, not from me personally, so less of the snide remarks. Playing with statistics to show the death rate in Sweden from Covid is only .000365 is, IMO, not acceptable. You will find the medical profession calculus is generally based upon Case Fatality Rate (CFR). Detail from a credible source...

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Sweden is 8th in terms of deaths per 1M pop, at the moment. Unfortunately, still a long way to go yet before we see who finally comes off worst.

Nauseus

 

Yes it is 8th.  However look at the additional chart.  The death toll of the other countries which had TOTAL LOCKDOWNS is not materially lower.  In addition 50% of the deaths in Sweden were in nursing homes and Sweden was slow in taking measures to safeguard the vulnerable.  Also, Swedens median age is 41.2 which is 10% older than the USA but its death rate is not materially higher.  The older the population the higher the death rate.  Looking at the countries with high death rates you have median ages  Spain 44.2, Italy 45.2, Belgium 41.2, UK 40.2, France 41.4  Sweden 41.2.  Now compare that to Vietnam 0 deaths median age 30.5, Nigeria 182 deaths median age 17.9, Kazakhstan 34 deaths, median age 29.4, Yemen, 20 deaths median age 20.2,  India 3029 deaths, median age 26.8. 

 

 

Two facts are startlingly clear.  The LOCK DOWN OR LACK OF ONE has little to no effect on the virus.  Even in New York which has 50% of the USA cornovirus deaths 66% of cases were coming from people who were totally LOCKED DOWN.  Second, the average temperature of the country and its median age has FAR FAR FAR Far more to do with the spread of the disease and its death rate.  Vietman with 97 million people has zero deaths, Thailand with 70 million has only 56 deaths.  

The countries with the HIGHEST death rates are those with more moderate temperatures which of course Sweden would be one of them along with Spain, Italy, UK, Belgium, France which additionally have populations with the highest median age.  Translation, protect the elderly and GET THE ECONOMY OPEN.  LOCK DOWNS HAVE ZERO EFFECTIVENESS. 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Thomas J

[Odysseus123]

8 minutes ago, DeadBite said:

Keep beating that chicken if it amuses u, boy

You are doing well..including your continual repetition of the word "boy" which was an insulting term in the land of the confederacy (white failed state) and equally so in that grotesque failed state White Apartheid South Africa.

 

Keep it up and I will report you.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Odysseus123