Water Pump on All Day/night

[Neeranam]

I recently got  a water pump and tank. One of daughters said she can't sleep as the pump goes on and off during the night.

On investigation, it does the same during the day, which would suggest a leak somewhere.

 

How to find a leak is the question I have. I don't know where to start.

[steve73]

How long is it on... how long is it off..? 

 

If on for a few seconds then off for more than a minute or so - yes it suggest a leak.  But if it's on/off/on/off rapidly it suggests a passing NRV at the pump suction.

[Thomas J]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I recently got  a water pump and tank. One of daughters said she can't sleep as the pump goes on and off during the night.

On investigation, it does the same during the day, which would suggest a leak somewhere.

 

How to find a leak is the question I have. I don't know where to start.

I would think you would have a shut off valve from your supply probably the municipal water and your pump.  If you shut it off and the meter is still running even a little, then the leak is somewhere between the street and your pump.  If the lines are buried well you have some work ahead of you.  If the meter is not running the leak is between the pump and the home.  Often one of the culprits is a toilet whose shut off is faulty and it slowly allows the water in the tank to bleed out and then it would cause the pump to run.  Otherwise you have to trace the lines into the home.  If it was leaking inside the house, I would certainly think you would see it. 

 

[Artisi]

What frequency is it on / off and how long does it run after switching on -- this will give you an idea of the nature of the leak - is it every 5 minutes or once an hour? 

First thing to check is leaking taps, followed by leaking toilet cisterns.

Sufficient to get started on .....

[couchpotato]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I would think you would have a shut off valve from your supply probably the municipal water and your pump.  If you shut it off and the meter is still running even a little, then the leak is somewhere between the street and your pump.  If the lines are buried well you have some work ahead of you.  If the meter is not running the leak is between the pump and the home.  Often one of the culprits is a toilet whose shut off is faulty and it slowly allows the water in the tank to bleed out and then it would cause the pump to run.  Otherwise you have to trace the lines into the home.  If it was leaking inside the house, I would certainly think you would see it. 

 

Last month sometime there was a long thread on this exact subject. Try to find it as it had some good info that would definitely help you.

[Peter Denis]

34 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

Last month sometime there was a long thread on this exact subject. Try to find it as it had some good info that would definitely help you.

Yes that thread was initiated by @Andrew Dwyer

He systematically went through all possible options, and unfortunately the worst one crystalized (a leak in the plastic piping buried with 2 feet of cement under the tiled bathroom floor).

But the thread addressed all options/solutions to the problem so can be quite helpful >

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Peter Denis

[Andrew Dwyer]

Yup, as Peter has stated I had the dreaded water leak, which turned out to be the worse case scenario, it was under my house !!

Mune started 2 years after installation, one night I heard the pump cycle and from then on it never stopped, initially every 2 hours and after about 2 months it was every 30 seconds !!

The pvc pipe went under the house approximately 35 Cm  below the level of my tiled floor so almost impossible to trace !! I had no option other than replace the whole pvc pipework to 3 bathrooms, 1 kitchen and 3 points outside the house ( outside tap, sink, washing machine ).

 

Hopefully you do not have this problem, here are some checks to do :

 

Initially you need to determine if it is the pump or a leak in pvc pipe after the pump.

If there is a stop valve soon after the pump, close it and check for pump cycling, if it stops then your pump is holding pressure and you can eliminate the pump as a problem. 
If it continues to cycle and you have a stop valve before the pump you then close it , if this then cures the problem it points to the built in non return valve in your pump ( if fitted ) allowing the pressure to drop.

 

It could be inside your house, dripping tap or overflowing toilet. Have a close inspection at taps, bum guns, showers, under sinks, etc to see any visible evidence.

Toilets are a common fault and the ball cock valves sometimes allow a small amount of water down the bowl.

Instead of trying to see any trickle of water in your toilets you can put one of those blue blocks in the cistern and avoid flushing for several hours to see if any water is passing.

In my case old blue blocks were leaving the water a lite blue colour already so I put in ( on the advice of another TVF poster ) red food colouring and went shopping for a while to determine if I had any leaks.

 

Leaks outside will  be mor difficult to spot, hose pipes, outside taps etc.

[Kwasaki]

My story was getting a storage tank  and pump for when the govt water was either non existent or very low pressure.

Our govt water supply now is sufficient nowadays so I put a On/Off switch in our bedroom and outside our downstairs bathroom. 

I did it because our Hitachi water pump I was told will prime itself every 15 mins or so but we never heard it anyway. 

[BobBKK]

I had the same thing - water leak but I also bought a low noise pump and installed 'City water' which does not need a pump.

[Andrew Dwyer]

My problem was that after the pump the pvc pipes disappeared underneath the tiled concrete walkways and only surfaced for outside taps and an outside sink.

 

I checked a couple of additional taps I had fit outside:

 

 

and one place where the “ tiler “ has put a nail into the concrete straight into a pipe !!

 

 

Murphy’s law ensured that the leak was not outside and actually under the house, I finally found this out by uncovering the pipe just before the pipe disappeared underneath the house, cut it plugged it off and checked the pump again ( it stopped cycling so my leak was in the abyss somewhere !! ).

 

If you have any uncovered pipes that you can fit a stop valve it will help to narrow your search down .

[Andrew Dwyer]

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

My story was getting a storage tank  and pump for when the govt water was either non existent or very low pressure.

Our govt water supply now is sufficient nowadays so I put a On/Off switch in our bedroom and outside our downstairs bathroom. 

I did it because our Hitachi water pump I was told will prime itself every 15 mins or so but we never heard it anyway. 

I have a Hitachi, it does not prime itself it is designed to hold pressure ( 20 to 26 psi ) if it drops below ( leak or open tap ).that it cycles to achieve pressure .

[BobBKK]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I have a Hitachi, it does not prime itself it is designed to hold pressure ( 20 to 26 psi ) if it drops below ( leak or open tap ).that it cycles to achieve pressure .

You have my sympathies I can assure you but you do use city water 95% of the time right?  not as cheap but cleaner, high pressure etc.  (you'd still have the leak of course I get that) but I use the local water for the garden and pump into a storage tank for that purpose.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by BobBKK

[Andrew Dwyer]

12 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

You have my sympathies I can assure you but you do use city water 95% of the time right?  not as cheap but cleaner, high pressure etc.  (you'd still have the leak of course I get that) but I use the local water for the garden and pump into a storage tank for that purpose.

 

My city water is a trickle out of the taps and barely makes it up the pipe for a shower, at weekends it is often off altogether.

I have a bypass so I run city water instead of the pump if there is a power or pump failure.

When I fixed my leak issue ( ran pipes above ground ) we used a dustbin and ladle in the bathroom for showering for a few days, it was great to get back to pump pressure water I can tell you !!

Edited May 16, 2020 by Andrew Dwyer

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

My city water is a trickle out of the taps and barely makes it up the pipe for a shower, at weekends it is often off altogether.

I have a bypass so I run city water instead of the pump if there is a power or pump failure.

When I fixed my leak issue ( ran pipes above ground ) we used a dustbin and ladle in the bathroom for showering for a few days, it was great to get back to pump pressure water I can tell you !!

Glad it worked out thanks for sharing.

[Heppinger]

Trade your pump in for some gravity, never lets you down.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I have a Hitachi, it does not prime itself it is designed to hold pressure ( 20 to 26 psi ) if it drops below ( leak or open tap ).that it cycles to achieve pressure .

Yeah well when I was told that from a Thai person I didn't take as gospal intelligents of water pumps, toilets flush systems and old taps sometimes can't withstand and maintain the pressure from my pump,  that's why I have 2 on/off switches in-house now.  

[Andrew Dwyer]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah well when I was told that from a Thai person I didn't take as gospal intelligents of water pumps, toilets flush systems and old taps sometimes can't withstand and maintain the pressure from my pump,  that's why I have 2 on/off switches in-house now.  

My pump is right outside my bedroom window and thankfully I could reach out and flick the switch when we went to bed otherwise the pump would have kept us awake all night kicking on and off .

[billd766]

I have 2 leaks for a while now, both underground.

 

I managed to fix one but with a bad back and S2S kneecaps it was difficult so my neighbour fixed it for me 3 weeks ago. This week he fixed it again (for how long I have no idea). It was easy to find as the soil was soaked and the water filled the hole as I was digging.

 

I still have the second leak and I know roughly where it is as the grass is long and green around the area. It is only a small weep and has become a round tuit job.

 

Unfortunate we have had no government water since early February. My wife goes to the big village tessaban and signs for water and sometime later the fire truck comes along and we get 4 ongs of water, about 6 cu/m. Then comes a dry rinse (don't waste water) and repeat until perhaps July.

 

There are 4 tankers out 8 hours a day, 7 days a week supplying all the small villages and they are doing a grand job.

[ben2talk]

Start by having a way to turn off the pump.

I've had issues with stuff like a bum gun not quite closing off, if it wakes me up at night now I'll just turn off the pump and investigate later.

 

Fortunately I didn't wire it in directly, I have a socket installed under my sink where the pump is...

 

Then it's a long painful matter of trying to half-split and diagnose the possible locations for leaks.

[northsouthdevide]

The first thing I would check is for leaks in bathroom, check that water doesn't still trickle into the toilet after flush and systen refill... Check all above ground fittings, garden hoses

Then look for wet patches in your garden. 

If you can't find anything, and your water preasure seems fine, then turn your pump off at night, or get it serviced. 

[Neeranam]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

For the meantime, I just turn it off(bypass switch) at night.

 

It seems to be going on for just a couple of seconds but every minute or so.

 

We are in the city and don't really need the pump -  the only thing I like it for is a shower, and of course when there is no supply, which doesn't happen much these days in Khon Kaen.

 

My wife has an irrigation piping system in the garden but that on another circuit. 

 

I'll buy some food dye, that's a good idea. 

[Neeranam]

23 hours ago, steve73 said:

How long is it on... how long is it off..? 

 

If on for a few seconds then off for more than a minute or so - yes it suggest a leak.  But if it's on/off/on/off rapidly it suggests a passing NRV at the pump suction.

Sometimes is is quite rapid. What is a passing NRV?

[taotoo]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Sometimes is is quite rapid. What is a passing NRV?

Non Return Valve maybe. Just a guess.

[lopburi3]

20 hours ago, Heppinger said:

Trade your pump in for some gravity, never lets you down.

And how high does it need to be?  P = 0.433 × h

So a 100ft high tower, filled to top, would provide a reasonable 43.3 PSI of water pressure.

And how is the water expected to fly up there?

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

And how high does it need to be?  P = 0.433 × h

So a 100ft high tower, filled to top, would provide a reasonable 43.3 PSI of water pressure.

And how is the water expected to fly up there?

I think I'll stick to a pump! 

[steve73]

55 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 

It seems to be going on for just a couple of seconds but every minute or so.

OK - so your non-return valve is OK.  As it's holding pressure for a few minutes it'll be a very slow leak.  (You can open a tap VERY slowly and see how little you need before the pump starts, and that'll give you an idea of the size of leak you're looking for.)  It could also be that your expansion tank is full of water (leaking bladder so no air), but that would typically cause it to cycle quite quickly when a tap is only cracked open.

I always install a separate air reservoir to give a bit more "surge" capacity so it doesn't turn on/off for something a small as a dripping tap, or slowly leaking WC flush tank.  A 2m length of 2" PVC pipe mounted vertically with an isolation, vent, and drain valve connected anywhere on the pump outlet works well, and will extend the pump cycle frequency from minutes to hours (and is easier than chasing out all your piping to try to find a really small leak).

 

Food dye in the W/C flush tank will often detect a small leak, but some WC's have a small routing direct into the "S" bend (to break the syphon when it flushes), so it may not show in the bowl...  You need to turn off the water to each WC in turn to be sure they're not leaking (lift the ball-cock if there's no external shut-off valve). 

[Artisi]

22 hours ago, Heppinger said:

Trade your pump in for some gravity, never lets you down.

Unless it all leaks out via any problem unbeknown to yourself ????

[Neeranam]

On 5/17/2020 at 2:41 PM, steve73 said:

Food dye in the W/C flush tank will often detect a small leak, but some WC's have a small routing direct into the "S" bend (to break the syphon when it flushes), so it may not show in the bowl...  You need to turn off the water to each WC in turn to be sure they're not leaking (lift the ball-cock if there's no external shut-off valve). 

I tried this and after a few hours the water in the bowl was red. 

What to do now? 

[lopburi3]

11 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I tried this and after a few hours the water in the bowl was red. 

What to do now? 

Check the water level - is it at or near the top of the overflow pipe - normally that is the source of the leaking - water is not being shut off completely by the float ball valve.  Often just adjusting the screw to make water level stop a bit lower will work but if an actual leak will need replacement parts.  

 

If not high water levels it must be a bad seal by the flapper you pull up to flush and that would need replacement (probably best to have workman replace whole unit).

Edited May 21, 2020 by lopburi3

[Artisi]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I tried this and after a few hours the water in the bowl was red. 

What to do now? 

It means the rubber seal between the cistern and the bowl is leaking. 

Get Somchai the plumber in to replace the seal or the complete flush valve.